Portugal and drug decriminalization

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Q: What happened in Portugal?

A: The impetus behind decriminalization was not that there was some drive to have a libertarian ideology based on the idea that adults should be able to use whatever substances they want. Nor was it because there’s some idyllic upper-middle-class setting. Portugal is a very poor country. It’s not Luxembourg or Monaco or something like that.

In the 1990s they had a spiraling, out-of-control drug problem. Addiction was skyrocketing. Drug-related pathologies were increasing rapidly. They were taking this step out of desperation. They convened a council of apolitical policy experts and gave them the mandate to determine which optimal policy approach would enable them to best deal with these drug problems. The council convened and studied all the various options. Decriminalization was the answer to the question, “How can we best limit drug usage and drug addiction?” It was a policy designed to do that.

Q: One of the things you found is that decriminalization actually correlates with less drug use. A basic theory would say that if you lower the cost of doing drugs by making it less criminally offensive, you would have more of it.

A: The concern that policy makers had, the frustration in the 1990s when they were criminalizing, is the more they criminalized, the more the usage rates went up. One of the reasons was because when you tell the population that you will imprison them or treat them as criminals if they identify themselves as drug users or you learn that they’re using drugs, what you do is you create a barrier between the government and the citizenry, such that the citizenry fears the government. Which means that government officials can’t offer treatment programs. They can’t communicate with the population effectively. They can’t offer them services.

Once Portugal decriminalized, a huge amount of money that had gone into putting its citizens in cages was freed up. It enabled the government to provide meaningful treatment to people who wanted it, and so addicts were able to turn into non–drug users and usage rates went down.

Q: What’s the relevance for the United States?

A: We have debates all the time now about things like drug policy reform and decriminalization, and it’s based purely in speculation and fear mongering of all the horrible things that are supposedly going to happen if we loosen our drug laws. We can remove ourselves from the realm of the speculative by looking at Portugal, which actually decriminalized seven years ago, in full, [use and possession of] every drug. And see that none of that parade of horribles that’s constantly warned of by decriminalization opponents actually came to fruition. Lisbon didn’t turn into a drug haven for drug tourists. The explosion in drug usage rates that was predicted never materialized. In fact, the opposite happened.

Reason.com

The truth of the matter here is that the drug war is a bipartisan effort and Democrats are just as wont as Republicans to prove their "tough on crime" street credentials at the local level as they begin on their anticipated career path to National Politics.

 

[off2bed]

To play devil's advocate, Portugal is a different culture, not so "diverse" like ours is. How does that affect things?

In the US, it's often argued that our experience with liquor prohibition tells us the folly of drug prohibition. If we legalize drugs, isn't that fighting today's war with yesterday's tactics?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Decriminalization is not legalization.

We'd save a helluva lot more money with treatment programs than by turning so many citizens into criminals.

I think the parallel would be conceal and carry. Wherever it's been introduced, it hasn't produced the anticipated "shooting gallery" (unlike the war on drugs).

 

[off2bed]

Potato, potAHto.

The conceal carry scaremongering might be a reasonable parallel. Or how about the towns that have mandated gun ownership, and seen drops in crime?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I have no knowledge of that phenomenon.

I'd have to study it a bit.

 

[Sharon_]

Decriminalization is not legalization.

We'd save a helluva lot more money with treatment programs than by turning so many citizens into criminals.

I think the parallel would be conceal and carry. Wherever it's been introduced, it hasn't produced the anticipated "shooting gallery" (unlike the war on drugs).

Case in point: I know a young man, 25...spent his second Father's Day in jail, his son is 15 months. Why? When he was 18 he and his drunken buddy's dumped some gas on a port-a-potty and torched it. He got 5 years, probated. Fast forward three years: he got caught with a joint. A, singular.
Probation violation.

Now he's 25 months into a 60 month sentence. Not only is he not fathering his son which I think everyone agrees is a bad thing...not only is he not paying taxes to the common welfare of society....not only is the mother now on welfare, food stamps and medicaid for the child....but on top of all that, it's costing us $120/day to keep him locked up. And my state is running a deficit.

Over *a* joint. I swear, I'm living in Crazy World.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

A joint should NOT lead to the joint!




Agreed.

 

[off2bed]

More devil's advocate.

Decriminalize cheating on your taxes. Everyone does it, it's victimless, and it makes too many roadblocks for political appointees. Think of the IRS resources we'd free up for things like Medicare and the VA.

Decriminalize immigration - free up INS resources, maintain low consumer prices, it's a win-win.

Tell me it's any different from these drug "decriminalizing" arguments.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

More devil's advocate.

Decriminalize cheating on your taxes. Everyone does it, it's victimless, and it makes too many roadblocks for political appointees. Think of the IRS resources we'd free up for things like Medicare and the VA.

Decriminalize immigration - free up INS resources, maintain low consumer prices, it's a win-win.

Tell me it's any different from these drug "decriminalizing" arguments.

Already been done. When you want your government post, then you pay-to-play...

When you want a job, go get your consular ID.

The difference is drugs are a crime against mainly the self while your two devilish counters are against the Great Satan and Satan has the guns and the power and Jesus always said, "Render unto Satan Satan's due, 'ere..."



We could eliminate tax-cheating altogether, something your sigline screams at us on a daily basis, but you'll never eliminate substance abuse, even if you outlaw all spray paint.

 

[JohnnySavage]

Case in point: I know a young man, 25...spent his second Father's Day in jail, his son is 15 months. Why? When he was 18 he and his drunken buddy's dumped some gas on a port-a-potty and torched it. He got 5 years, probated. Fast forward three years: he got caught with a joint. A, singular.
Probation violation.

Now he's 25 months into a 60 month sentence. Not only is he not fathering his son which I think everyone agrees is a bad thing...not only is he not paying taxes to the common welfare of society....not only is the mother now on welfare, food stamps and medicaid for the child....but on top of all that, it's costing us $120/day to keep him locked up. And my state is running a deficit.

Over *a* joint. I swear, I'm living in Crazy World.

I support legalization of drugs, but I would argue that the young man was not sent to prison for "a" joint - he was sent to prison for violation of the terms of his probation and the original sentence was imposed.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

[voice=Pat Paulson]

Picky, picky, picky... [/voice]

 

[Saint Peter]

I support legalization of drugs, but I would argue that the young man was not sent to prison for "a" joint - he was sent to prison for violation of the terms of his probation and the original sentence was imposed.

The straw that brokeback the camel.

 

[off2bed]

The straw that brokeback the camel.

Portugal legalized homosexuality at about the same time as drugs.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Portugal legalized homosexuality at about the same time as drugs.

Nice factoid devil's mouthpiece.

 

[off2bed]

Nice factoid devil's mouthpiece.

It was part of my research after seeing your OP.

 

[Wok]

Privatize the prisons. That's what America needs.

 

[off2bed]

We have some already.

 

[Wok]

We have some already.

Neat. Do some more. Fucking commies.

 

[Saint Peter]

Portugal legalized homosexuality at about the same time as drugs.

Just like Prohibition!

Now everybody wants a piece.

 

[Wok]

Just like Prohibition!

Now everybody wants a piece.

Yeah, hairy buttfucking leads to all sorts of badness. Down with the faggotry!

 

[JohnnySavage]

The straw that brokeback the camel.

Lately, I read your posts and hear banjo music in the background.

 

[Saint Peter]

Lately, I read your posts and hear banjo music in the background.

Do not be a banjo hater.

 

[thør]

Do not be a banjo hater.

He said nothing about your kick-ass shiny canoe.

 

[Sharon_]

Privatize the prisons. That's what America needs.

Axshully, that's my pet Conspiracy Theory as to why so many folks are getting locked up for so long over Nonsense Issues. Violent offenders get out sooner than pot smokers and minor offenders. Look at the highschool kids in whatever state that was that now have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives because the one kid's girlfriend sent him a naked photo of herself via cellphone and he shared it with others and got charged with child porn. Someone's gonna make a lot of money off that boy, since those folks have to pay monitoring fees. Say $25/month for every month of his life...those $25 probation/monitoring fees add up!

A conspiracy crackpot might think judges are getting a kickback to sentence everyone and they kick the serious offenders out cuz those take more work thus decrease the profit margin. Much bigger profits to be had for all around if the pot smokers get locked up. A lot.

It's an entire industry--laundry services, telecommunications...outrageous prices for toiletries....the aforementioned monitoring fees....

My Dad always told me when trying to get at the nut of a matter to follow the money.

 

[KRCummings]

Axshully, that's my pet Conspiracy Theory as to why so many folks are getting locked up for so long over Nonsense Issues. Violent offenders get out sooner than pot smokers and minor offenders. Look at the highschool kids in whatever state that was that now have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives because the one kid's girlfriend sent him a naked photo of herself via cellphone and he shared it with others and got charged with child porn. Someone's gonna make a lot of money off that boy, since those folks have to pay monitoring fees. Say $25/month for every month of his life...those $25 probation/monitoring fees add up!

A conspiracy crackpot might think judges are getting a kickback to sentence everyone and they kick the serious offenders out cuz those take more work thus decrease the profit margin. Much bigger profits to be had for all around if the pot smokers get locked up. A lot.

It's an entire industry--laundry services, telecommunications...outrageous prices for toiletries....the aforementioned monitoring fees....

My Dad always told me when trying to get at the nut of a matter to follow the money.

Show me where pot smokers not only get prison time but get more time than violent offenders.