When does this gay pride stuff become parody?

[Boxlicker101]

Edmonton's Pride Parade turned out to be more political than celebratory, which is nice. Still can't elieve Heather Klimchuk, one who voted for Bill 44, had the audacity to step up on the stage at the Pride Parade thinking she could earn political brownie points for doing such. She was promptly booed off the stage without her being able to say a word to the crowd.

The name was not familiar, nor was Bill 44, but I found this by Google.

http://aguynamedbrian.blogspot.com/2009/06/alberta-minister-chooses-calgary-train.html

 

[3113]

LGBTTIQQ2S ??

I understand what you're saying, which is that when a movement ends up with an alphabet soup, and an pricklish attitude about terms, it risks being seen as too caught up with those terms and less caught up with what they're fighting for.

That said, it is tiring to have to re-invent the wheel over and over again. Women have to fight for equal rights, then Jews, then blacks....in away, they have a good idea here. It's no good if gays get equal rights, but transgendered, say, don't and then they have to fight this fight all over again. So might as well cover everyone who is being discriminated against for the same reason (not being conventionally heterosexual), and get them all rights at the same time.

This saves them each having to fight for those same rights in battle after battle.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

One wonders who the neo-Nazi's will find to persecute when this battle is won . . .

 

[Boxlicker101]

Originally Posted by Samuel667
LGBTTIQQ2S ??

I understand what you're saying, which is that when a movement ends up with an alphabet soup, and an pricklish attitude about terms, it risks being seen as too caught up with those terms and less caught up with what they're fighting for.

That said, it is tiring to have to re-invent the wheel over and over again. Women have to fight for equal rights, then Jews, then blacks....in away, they have a good idea here. It's no good if gays get equal rights, but transgendered, say, don't and then they have to fight this fight all over again. So might as well cover everyone who is being discriminated against for the same reason (not being conventionally heterosexual), and get them all rights at the same time.

This saves them each having to fight for those same rights in battle after battle.

Although I have nothing but good will and support for the organization, I can see what Sam means. Sometimes a way to make fun of and marginalize an organization is to give them a complicated name, such as they have given themselves. For instance, what is the difference between transgendered and transexual? Isn't that just two ways of saying the same thing? As for people in the process of sex change, why not include them with those who have completed it. It's my understanding that a sex change, even if no surgery is involved, is an ongoing thing anyhow, with taking of hormones for many years.

 

[sr71plt]

One wonders who the neo-Nazi's will find to persecute when this battle is won . . .

They just refuse to concede the battles are won.

I agree, though, that the gay pride stuff can hit on parody and "in your face" counterproductivity pretty quickly. And much of this garishness is just adolescent self-indulgence, I think.

 

[3113]

They just refuse to concede the battles are won.
And much of this garishness is just adolescent self-indulgence, I think.

But that's not uncommon in the maturation process of any such movement. And unlike adolescents, when they say "You don't understand!" to the heterosexual majority, they're really quite right.

For better or worse, and even if it hurts their cause, the pent-up rage at so many years of unfairness and injustice has been released--and I'm merely talking about from StoneWall till now. Gay rights has been barely achieved and only at a creeping pace, this while watching their members persecuted, murdered, slandered, ignored and used as scapegoats during the AIDS epidemic, etc. When this point occurred with the black power movement in the 60's we got riots.

It's hypocritical to demand that those bullied, like adolescents in a high school gym, act maturely. They've acted like adults in the past, and appealed rationally and reasonably to the school board for juvenile behavior to end. Those supposed adults, fearing the bullies, have dragged their feet. So is it any surprise that when acting mature fails, they resort to fighting fire with fire?

We might as well cluck our tongues at the impatience of starving people, who, having had years of food doled out to them little by little while others casually feast, finally riot.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by Samuel667
LGBTTIQQ2S ??

Although I have nothing but good will and support for the organization, I can see what Sam means. Sometimes a way to make fun of and marginalize an organization is to give them a complicated name, such as they have given themselves.

It doesn't matter what an organisation calls itself, someone will make fun of it anyway.

For instance, what is the difference between transgendered and transexual? Isn't that just two ways of saying the same thing? As for people in the process of sex change, why not include them with those who have completed it. It's my understanding that a sex change, even if no surgery is involved, is an ongoing thing anyhow, with taking of hormones for many years.

I am transgendered, but not transsexual. I never will be transsexual, and I will always be transgendered. The two are closely related, but not quite the same thing.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

But that's not uncommon in the maturation process of any such movement. And unlike adolescents, when they say "You don't understand!" to the heterosexual majority, they're really quite right.

For better or worse, and even if it hurts their cause, the pent-up rage at so many years of unfairness and injustice has been released--and I'm merely talking about from StoneWall till now. Gay rights has been barely achieved and only at a creeping pace, this while watching their members persecuted, murdered, slandered, ignored and used as scapegoats during the AIDS epidemic, etc. When this point occurred with the black power movement in the 60's we got riots.

It's hypocritical to demand that those bullied, like adolescents in a high school gym, act maturely. They've acted like adults in the past, and appealed rationally and reasonably to the school board for juvenile behavior to end. Those supposed adults, fearing the bullies, have dragged their feet. So is it any surprise that when acting mature fails, they resort to fighting fire with fire?

We might as well cluck our tongues at the impatience of starving people, who, having had years of food doled out to them little by little while others casually feast, finally riot.

Exactly. For decades, organizations like GLAAD have patiently waited for the majority to stop being either indifferent or hostile. In many ways it was like the NAACP who patiently waited for 'white folks' to get it together. We finally did but the '60's and 70's were hard times for all. One can hope that we won't have to go through the same thing again and I doubt that we will. Politics and the judiciary seem to be moving much faster this trip out. The indifferent are coming over, bit by bit, and the hostile . . . fuck 'em, just fuck 'em (preferably with a really spiny dildo!)

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Again, the model to use is not the Black Panthers, La Raza or SNCC. It is the NRA. It matters not whether anyone particularly agrees with the organization's point of view, what I'm talking about is tactics and focus. Go to this site and watch the changes in state policy re: concealed weapons licensing. In 20 years of hard lobbying, court cases and "public awareness campaigns" we now have a country where is legal to carry a concealed weapon with no interference from paranoid officials in 37 states. Only two states outright forbid such carry. I'd call that pretty skilled politicking, myself. This is what the GLBT (for short) community needs to organize to do. Do what I tell you; it will work.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Again, the model to use is not the Black Panthers, La Raza or SNCC. It is the NRA. It matters not whether anyone particularly agrees with the organization's point of view, what I'm talking about is tactics and focus. Go to this site and watch the changes in state policy re: concealed weapons licensing. In 20 years of hard lobbying, court cases and "public awareness campaigns" we now have a country where is legal to carry a concealed weapon with no interference from paranoid officials in 37 states. Only two states outright forbid such carry. I'd call that pretty skilled politicking, myself. This is what the GLBT (for short) community needs to organize to do. Do what I tell you; it will work.

Individual members of the NRA tend to have quite a bit of pull and, let's face it, all they are doing is telling local governments they are not allowed to pass laws that violate the Bill of Rights. Members of the GLBT (for short) usually have very little, except in the entertainment industry. They do have quite a lot of influence in some cities, such as San Francisco, but not in the country as a whole.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Individual members of the NRA tend to have quite a bit of pull and, let's face it, all they are doing is telling local governments they are not allowed to pass laws that violate the Bill of Rights. Members of the GLBT (for short) usually have very little, except in the entertainment industry. They do have quite a lot of influence in some cities, such as San Francisco, but not in the country as a whole.

Piles of letters from "ordinary citizens", no matter what their orientation, count. It isn't the bigwigs of the NRA who get the gov's attention, it's the volume of Joe Citizen letters that make the difference.

 

[sr71plt]

Piles of letters from "ordinary citizens", no matter what their orientation, count. It isn't the bigwigs of the NRA who get the gov's attention, it's the volume of Joe Citizen letters that make the difference.

Point of order. It's who contributes to the campaign chest biggest who makes a difference.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Point of order. It's who contributes to the campaign chest biggest who makes a difference.

Very cynical. The NRA doesn't have any really serious heavy-weight money behind it. The US weapons industry is peanuts compared to Hollywood but whereas stars can simper around and shell out cash by the pile, congress-bodies and Senators can count as well as the next. They'll happily take money from anyone and vote against them but if there's an entire sack of mail from their district on a particular subject, they will respond. After all, who wants to get fired?

 

[sr71plt]

Very cynical.

Excuse me? Where have you been the last twenty years? You haven't noticed all of the legislators tiptoeing around the NRA? You think that's because they have no political clout?

You really think letter-writing citizens and gays have that kind of clout with legislators?

Ha.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I agree with Da Bear and (goddess help me) SR. We need to direct both our (LGBT+) attentions towards grass root changes AND back it up with our contributions.

The problem we are currently facing is the "Old Gays" network either believes in "give it time" or "Hey, I got invited to the White House for cocktails, so EVERYTHING is just peachy!" Barney Frank, Andrew Tobias, Joe Solmonese, Tammy Baldwin and the rest of their ilk are too busy swilling champagne with Barrack to push our agenda with him.

I think this quote from a blogger expresses my feeling pretty well:

I realize the President has a lot of issues on his schedule, but when he had said, loudly, in public, on the record and youtube and all, one thing and then DOES another: not good.

I say this as a FRIEND.

Seriously: how many people who have recently typed their venom and anger at Obama here, and proclaimed they won't vote for him in three years, how many would otherwise vote foe a Palin or a Jindal or a Romney or Nosferatu-McCain?? None.

That is NOT the point.

Obama FUCKED UP. Get over it. [He needs to get over it.] - It is possible and it just happened. He is a human being, and made a mistake. A very large hurtful one - hurtful not only to his constituency but to himself politically, and he has been served badly by backward-looking advisers. I do not want the leader of my country to be so weakened - especially when it happens as I personally get the shaft.

We're going to wait as long as we wait anyway. Where's the communication. Where's the outreach. Reaching to the A-Gay just gives the A-Gay an orgasm. Doesn't do anything for you, me, or the issues.

The DOMA brief was fucking poisonous and can't be law-nerded away. DADT can be stopped IMMEDIATELY via executive order. We are at WAR, the 101st fighting homophobic keyboardists will just have to get over it. Allaying the Generals' discomfort is worth more than defeating our enemies? I DON'T THINK SO. Me and the majority of the fucking country. These issues have a time factor of precisely NOW.

Political capital is sometimes quite time-sensitive - that is if it is not used it spoils. Badly. Obama's capitol is starting to spoil.

I don't want that.

Does the country really have the luxury of waiting another half month until someone gets serious about these issues to START to realistically address them?

The time of Joe Solmonese-like "we've waited decades, a few years won't matter" pandering is just about past and the days of Geoff Kors-like "get off you asses, NOW" activism is on the move.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Originally Posted by voluptuary_manque
Piles of letters from "ordinary citizens", no matter what their orientation, count. It isn't the bigwigs of the NRA who get the gov's attention, it's the volume of Joe Citizen letters that make the difference.

Point of order. It's who contributes to the campaign chest biggest who makes a difference.

I think we all know that it's both. Pols hate to act against those who have bribed them with big contributions, but they also hate to incur the wrath of tens of thousands of their constituents. Sometimes it means walking a fine line. This might even result in people sometimes voting for what they think is right.

 

[Katyusha]

Why? Does being inclusive offend you in some way?

It almost sounds like you'd prefer for it to be Lesbian, Gay AGAINST Everyone Else.

Sorry, dude, but like Stella said there are too many other people who have been fucked over and as VM and the others have said there are too many straight people who believe in equality, as well.

I'm never going to remember all the letters in that acronym but I agree with you. Although I do wish everyone was just a person to everyone else.

 

[Katyusha]

I am transgendered, but not transsexual. I never will be transsexual, and I will always be transgendered. The two are closely related, but not quite the same thing.

So what is the difference then? (genuine question, I honestly don't know)

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Excuse me? Where have you been the last twenty years? You haven't noticed all of the legislators tiptoeing around the NRA? You think that's because they have no political clout?

You really think letter-writing citizens and gays have that kind of clout with legislators?

Ha.

Duh! I'm a Life Member of the NRA and we don't work with money because we haven't got that much! There isn't enough money in the average firearms manufacturer to compete with the income of a measly pair of anti-hunting, anti-gun starlets, let alone the braying of the Big Media. All we have is numbers and focus. And that's how we win, numbers, letters and focus, focus, focus!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Damn, Safey, when you take a cut at the ball, you swing for the fences. Yes, the "Old Gays Network" in Washington is part of the problem, not part of the solution. They're in office so everything must, indeed, be peachy. Surely you wouldn't vote them out because they're sitting on their hands? How could you?

There are 300+million people in this country and if the usual quote of 1.1% of men and 4% of women are predominantly same-sex oriented I call that an average of 2.5% of the total. That comes to seven and a half million souls, at least 5 million of whom are of voting age. Add in the rest of the spectrum out to completely bi- and you have a huge number of potential Congress pesterers. Want to include the sympathetic straights? It's overwhelming. Let's get off the stick and bitch-slap some politicians.

 

[sr71plt]

Duh! I'm a Life Member of the NRA and we don't work with money because we haven't got that much! There isn't enough money in the average firearms manufacturer to compete with the income of a measly pair of anti-hunting, anti-gun starlets, let alone the braying of the Big Media. All we have is numbers and focus. And that's how we win, numbers, letters and focus, focus, focus!

I've got a nice bridge to sell you.

And as far as letter writing to congressman, I know a bunch of folks who have been staffers shoveling those in sometime in the course of their careers. They mostly just keep tallies, and the letters might be mentioned if the balance served what the representative wanted to do anyway based on the more influential voices, and sure, if the opposing letters reached somewhere around 50 percent of the consitutents, they sat up and listened. But whenever the "fanatic position pusher" element was seen (and the signature unimportant), the letters were pretty much discounted. And you'd be a dreamer to think that many voters write their representative about anything at all.

This is the real world. You want to make change? Start off by not being a Pollyanna about what the real world is and how it operates.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So what is the difference then? (genuine question, I honestly don't know)

My brain tells me I'm in the wrong body, which is what makes me transgendered. I am planning to live with that, however, and not change my body to match what my brain tells me -- which would make me transsexual.



As far as srplt's qualms, there are certainly people pushing money for the LGBT cause. Grassroots celebrations like gay pride parades give people the sense that their money, if they donate it, will be in company with enough other money to make that donation worthwhile.

Plus, everybody loves parades, and whether or not anyone wants to believe this, GP parades have made a difference in acceptance within communities. That's pretty damn important to those of us who have to live in those communities.

 

[sr71plt]

As far as srplt's qualms

I have no qualms about any of this. I'm undoubtedly in that "Old Gays" network category safe-bet talked about--but without the network.

Thus far my lifestyle has worked a charm for me. And I don't have to put on pink and do the clown walk down Seventh Avenue to get what I want.

I've just been pointing to a bit of naivete.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And you've done a very good job of pointing, yes you have!

 

[Katyusha]

My brain tells me I'm in the wrong body, which is what makes me transgendered. I am planning to live with that, however, and not change my body to match what my brain tells me -- which would make me transsexual.

Ahhh I gotcha. Thanks.