Where are all the women?

[Sir_Winston54]

I want my kids to be happy, excel at what they are good at, communicate well, and be successful - however they define success.

All of them [boys and girls] are held to the same standard re: good manners; I don't put them in smocked dresses and shirt/tie, but I refuse to go out in public with ragamuffins. By 18 I expect them to know how to cook, do laundry, set a budget, sew a button, pay bills, impress a boss [or work hard enough to be their own], remember that cars need things like oil (I don't care how the oil thing happens, as long as they remember), be a good and kind influence on the world, and not take undeserved **** from anyone.

You... you... you martinet, you! You actually expect your children to be competent human beings? How cruel can one be???

 

[CutieMouse]

real woman =

look and dress like Barbie
have money and sing like Dolly Parton
keep house like Martha Stewart
raise kids like June Cleaver
not be smarter then me​

I'll post more

should I survive this post....

I dress like a girl. I just do. I think I own 1 pair of jeans... I used to have overalls for grubby work, but they wore out. The rest of the time it's skirts/dresses just because I'm most comfortable that way.... actually I own more old lingerie than clothes, even though I don't wear it much anymore.

I don't have "money" and Dolly Parton was better developed at 10 than me.

I must admit to reading books on housekeeping and organization for fun.

I don't raise the kids like June, I raise them how I raise them.

Most people are smarter than me... fortunately, I'm a heck of a lot smarter than the ones who aren't.

 

[CutieMouse]

You... you... you martinet, you! You actually expect your children to be competent human beings? How cruel can one be???

Actually what made me think of it, is that the girls at work don't know how to sew a button or fix a popped seam - something I find to be absolutely outrageous. Then I realized that I'd be just as bothered by it if my sons couldn't sew a button or fix a popped seam at 23, either. LOL

 

[myinnerslut]

'Be a woman'? What's the mean? Possess a vagina? It's a wide-open thing these days, because women's lib has thrown the doors open.

.

so funny story....

i was student teaching in a first grade class, and had promised them that one day i would play gym with them. the day comes, and they are doing stations. sit ups over here, jump rope over there, basketball over there, etc.

i wandered from station to station in an attempt to spend some time with each group of children as they rotated. while at the sit up station, after stating that it wasnt likely i would actually be doing any myself, i held the feet of a few of girls so that they could do their sit ups. a few of them came up to me and asked hopefully who was going to hold me feet. they looked so darn cute looking up at me hoping that i would join in that i gave in.

it took two of them to hold down each foot, but four girls cheerfully piled onto my feet while i counted the sit-ups out loud. i did 30 or so pretty quickly, and went to get up. one usually shy and quiet brunette put her hands on my knees and bent over me, and with all the air in her first grade lungs bellowed:

"you can do it! 31! 32! dont stop! keep going! BE A WOMEN! BE A WOMEN!"

i was quite shocked to say the least. i wonder where that came from

 

[ZRT]

so funny story....

i was student teaching in a first grade class, and had promised them that one day i would play gym with them. the day comes, and they are doing stations. sit ups over here, jump rope over there, basketball over there, etc.

i wandered from station to station in an attempt to spend some time with each group of children as they rotated. while at the sit up station, after stating that it wasnt likely i would actually be doing any myself, i held the feet of a few of girls so that they could do their sit ups. a few of them came up to me and asked hopefully who was going to hold me feet. they looked so darn cute looking up at me hoping that i would join in that i gave in.

it took two of them to hold down each foot, but four girls cheerfully piled onto my feet while i counted the sit-ups out loud. i did 30 or so pretty quickly, and went to get up. one usually shy and quiet brunette put her hands on my knees and bent over me, and with all the air in her first grade lungs bellowed:

"you can do it! 31! 32! dont stop! keep going! BE A WOMEN! BE A WOMEN!"

i was quite shocked to say the least. i wonder where that came from

Now that's why a person goes into teaching. Priceless.

 

[Keroin]

look and dress like Barbie

This was a big issue for me growing up. I tried, really tried to fit in and dress like I was "supposed to". Ironically, when I finally gave up and started dressing the way I wanted, that's the moment I started to feel sexy and feminine.

I don't know what it is like for young girls now but I felt the pressure of maintaining a feminine appearance like hundred pound weights around my neck.

have money and sing like Dolly Parton

Yes and yes! (OK, I like to think I can sing but...no).

keep house like Martha Stewart

Well, not to that extreme. I'm clean but I'm also quite Spartanesque. I'm not likely to macrame individual place settings for my dinner party guests, though.

raise kids like June Cleaver

Now you've stumbled upon one of my biggest pet peeves, the expectation that women should want kids, be good with kids, and are somehow incomplete without them. This is the one that burns my toast every time. I once had a partner volunteer me for babysitting for some friends of ours. Yeah, it was a cold night in our bed that night. I like kids, I really do, I just like to be able to send them away whenever I feel like it.

I've never changed a diaper in my life. It is my goal to never, ever change a diaper, (other than my own or Chuck's, when we are old).

not be smarter then me

Well, that's just not possible, Shanks.

Seriously, there are men out there who get seriously wigged out if a woman is _________ (fill in the blank with stereotypical male quality) than them.

Funny,back in the day, if I was out at a bar with my male co-workers, and a girl asked them what they did for a living, you'd see that girl's eyes light up and she'd be all over them for the rest of the night.

When a guy would ask me the same question...complete opposite reaction. He'd become instantly defensive and have to tell me about some macho thing he does or he'd go over the top with the jokes. It was awkward.

I'll post more

should I survive this post....

Don't worry, you get used to the rocks and everyone here throws like a girl, anyway.

 

[Shankara20]

I dress like a girl. I just do. I think I own 1 pair of jeans... I used to have overalls for grubby work, but they wore out. The rest of the time it's skirts/dresses just because I'm most comfortable that way.... actually I own more old lingerie than clothes, even though I don't wear it much anymore.

I don't have "money" and Dolly Parton was better developed at 10 than me.

I must admit to reading books on housekeeping and organization for fun.

I don't raise the kids like June, I raise them how I raise them.

Most people are smarter than me... fortunately, I'm a heck of a lot smarter than the ones who aren't.

If we can share the vintage undies I guess I can overlook the lack of money


not that I'm making any sort of a pass or anything

 

[intothewoods]

Haven't you heard? Angry feminists killed all the "real women."

From the way I was raised, I got the sense that a real woman:

is an excellent mother
is an excellent cook
probably works out of the home
can achieve anything professionally that she so desires (though I don't think working really long hours was seen as desirable)
does not belch, etc. loudly in public (I dislike this in men as well)
does not chase a man
does not sit so everyone can see her underwear
does not swear
does not wear white after labor day or wool in the summer, etc.
dresses appropriately for the occasion, including nice clothes for the airplane

I think that's it.

I value mothering, cooking and keeping a home, and I want my partner to value it as well.

 

[Shankara20]

Well, that's just not possible, Shanks.

I you as well

Don't worry, you get used to the rocks and everyone here throws like a girl, anyway.

run for cover - no tellin' where them rock are gona land!

 

[ZRT]

Haven't you heard? Angry feminists killed all the "real women."

Personally I don't say 'killed', I say that feminism opened the floodgates.

I'm fine with that- I don't think anybody should be particularly straitjacketed into roles in life, so long as they're performing within minimal societal bounds.

I differentiate between the modern political animal of feminist activism and the old grassroots movement, though.

 

[ZRT]

run for cover - no tellin' where them rock are gona land!

Probably on the anthill over yonder.

 

[echologue]

Perhaps someday we'll get to the point where gender isn't about rules of conduct or certain expected behaviors and we can start being human beings and do what makes us happy.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

does not chase a man (visibly. That reminds me of the old saying, "I chased her until she caught me.")
does not sit so everyone can see her underwear (if she wears them)
does not swear (except internally)

Fixed those for ya.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Perhaps someday we'll get to the point where gender isn't about rules of conduct or certain expected behaviors and we can start being human beings and do what makes us happy.

OMG, an optimist in the room! Run, hide... wait, what?

 

[Keroin]

Personally I don't say 'killed', I say that feminism opened the floodgates.

I'm fine with that- I don't think anybody should be particularly straitjacketed into roles in life, so long as they're performing within minimal societal bounds.

I differentiate between the modern political animal of feminist activism and the old grassroots movement, though.

How would you describe the difference between the two?

 

[JMohegan]

I love taking care of my house, husband and kids.

My chief complaint with regard to the Women's Movement is the failure to celebrate the contributions to society traditionally made by women. The fact that your statement would be met with disdain by so many is something I will never understand, and will oppose as long as I live.

Wow. I'm getting a really strong feeling that hardly anyone gives a flying frack about how women behave, dress, etc and yet most everyone has very strong opinions about what constitutes manliness.

Why is this?

Seriously, I'm blown away.

I care very much. Not just in terms of personal preference, but with regard to society as a whole.

Please don't misunderstand me. I celebrate choice, and your right to live life in whatever way fulfills you.

But there is a tender, nurturing, graciousness - a dignified softness, warm loveliness that some women possess, and no man ever will. A world without these women is not a place in which I would ever want to live.

Allowing women to take on traditionally male personas *without censure* is a good thing. Encouraging all women to take on traditionally male personas is not.

 

[JMohegan]

From the way I was raised, I got the sense that a real woman:

is an excellent mother
is an excellent cook
probably works out of the home
can achieve anything professionally that she so desires (though I don't think working really long hours was seen as desirable)

Aside from the crushing burden inherent in the "I can do everything a woman used to do AND have a career like a man" model, I object to the implicit denigration of the traditional woman's roles.

It's as if, you know, of course it will be possible to shop, clean, feed the family, and raise the children - all between the time when you get home from work and the kids head off to bed.

 

[Keroin]

My chief complaint with regard to the Women's Movement is the failure to celebrate the contributions to society traditionally made by women. The fact that your statement would be met with disdain by so many is something I will never understand, and will oppose as long as I live.

I care very much. Not just in terms of personal preference, but with regard to society as a whole.

Please don't misunderstand me. I celebrate choice, and your right to live life in whatever way fulfills you.

But there is a tender, nurturing, graciousness - a dignified softness, warm loveliness that some women possess, and no man ever will. A world without these women is not a place in which I would ever want to live.

Allowing women to take on traditionally male personas *without censure* is a good thing. Encouraging all women to take on traditionally male personas is not.

No misunderstanding whatsoever; the qualities you speak of are ones I value as well. There are women I know who are like campfires, people just want to be around them for the warmth they exude, myself included. In some ways, I envy them but I also know I can never *be* them...as much as they can never be me. That's just fine.

Alone with my partner, I become very soft and pliable, womanly, if you will. I'm not sure what triggers that transformation but it feels very natural. The rest of the time, however, I go back to the regular me, which also feels very natural.

I have enormous respect for good mothers such as Gracie and CM and others I've read about in this forum. It's a heck of a lot of work, with often not much in the way of recognition.

 

[graceanne]

And cussing "like a sailor" is overrated. Sailors just curse often. There's nothing particularly creative about it.

I use that phrase because it's well known. In truth I cuss like the child of a junkie. It's a bad habit of mine that I hate, but can't seem to kick.

See, I don't laugh about it or stuff like that and I always pardon myself and apologise, but at the end of the day, its a natural bodily function and it's going to happen whether you like it or not.

Also, to be fair to myself, I have no control over my farts. With the scar tissue I have, the muscle tone isn't there to keep air in. I'm just glad I don't shit my pants anymore, honestly.

As for burps, I burp in public, but I do it quietly with my hand over my mouth, and then say 'excuse me'.

but can you make a fresh peach pie from scratch or chicken gravy without lumps?

Yes, and yes. I can, and do, make almost everything from scratch. I'm allergic to MSG and aspartame, if I didn't make things from scratch I'd always being sick.

We youngsters (all 18 and 19 at the time, and few from military families)

You were young? No. Way.

I want my kids to be happy, excel at what they are good at, communicate well, and be successful - however they define success.

All of them [boys and girls] are held to the same standard re: good manners; I don't put them in smocked dresses and shirt/tie, but I refuse to go out in public with ragamuffins. By 18 I expect them to know how to cook, do laundry, set a budget, sew a button, pay bills, impress a boss [or work hard enough to be their own], remember that cars need things like oil (I don't care how the oil thing happens, as long as they remember), be a good and kind influence on the world, and not take undeserved **** from anyone.

If this is your definition of a lady/gentleman, then I qualify. And my kids will qualify by the time they're adults.

so funny story....

i was student teaching in a first grade class, and had promised them that one day i would play gym with them. the day comes, and they are doing stations. sit ups over here, jump rope over there, basketball over there, etc.

i wandered from station to station in an attempt to spend some time with each group of children as they rotated. while at the sit up station, after stating that it wasnt likely i would actually be doing any myself, i held the feet of a few of girls so that they could do their sit ups. a few of them came up to me and asked hopefully who was going to hold me feet. they looked so darn cute looking up at me hoping that i would join in that i gave in.

it took two of them to hold down each foot, but four girls cheerfully piled onto my feet while i counted the sit-ups out loud. i did 30 or so pretty quickly, and went to get up. one usually shy and quiet brunette put her hands on my knees and bent over me, and with all the air in her first grade lungs bellowed:

"you can do it! 31! 32! dont stop! keep going! BE A WOMEN! BE A WOMEN!"

i was quite shocked to say the least. i wonder where that came from

ROFL

This was a big issue for me growing up. I tried, really tried to fit in and dress like I was "supposed to". Ironically, when I finally gave up and started dressing the way I wanted, that's the moment I started to feel sexy and feminine.

I don't know what it is like for young girls now but I felt the pressure of maintaining a feminine appearance like hundred pound weights around my neck.

I did, too. My mother was determined that my sister and I would be ladylike, even though she wasn't, and tried to make us be ladylike. It didn't work well, but then in High School I decided I wanted to be like those 'ladylike' girls that I saw, and I really really tried. All I ended up doing was coming off as fake.[/quote]

Yes and yes! (OK, I like to think I can sing but...no).

I sing pretty well. I won't ever be the next dolly parton, but i can hold a tune and sing with the kids almost every day.

My chief complaint with regard to the Women's Movement is the failure to celebrate the contributions to society traditionally made by women. The fact that your statement would be met with disdain by so many is something I will never understand, and will oppose as long as I live.

I agree. lol Obviously. My son asked me the other day why I don't have a 'real job'. I just said 'what do you call what I do?"

Aside from the crushing burden inherent in the "I can do everything a woman used to do AND have a career like a man" model, I object to the implicit denigration of the traditional woman's roles.

It's as if, you know, of course it will be possible to shop, clean, feed the family, and raise the children - all between the time when you get home from work and the kids head off to bed.

I've always heard that women can have everything. What if I don't want everything? What if I think 'everything' sounds exhausting and not good for me or my family? Thank you, but no. I'll stick with having half of everything - I'm busy enough without adding more.

 

[intothewoods]

Aside from the crushing burden inherent in the "I can do everything a woman used to do AND have a career like a man" model, I object to the implicit denigration of the traditional woman's roles.

It's as if, you know, of course it will be possible to shop, clean, feed the family, and raise the children - all between the time when you get home from work and the kids head off to bed.

I'm aware of this taking place, but I just don't want it to be overstated. My mother was a feminist, a working mother and she never denigrated motherhood, cooking or keeping a home. I don't think she and many other women in her generation really considered the practicalities of women working in demanding professions such as law or medicine and also keeping a home. Something's gotta give.

 

[JMohegan]

I've always heard that women can have everything. What if I don't want everything? What if I think 'everything' sounds exhausting and not good for me or my family? Thank you, but no. I'll stick with having half of everything - I'm busy enough without adding more.

This is the part that a lot of people don't seem to focus on: Traditional men never had "everything." My dad missed out on a lot with me growing up, for the simple reason that he had a full time job.

Assuming that the parents are interested, loving and competent, what seems to be ignored so often is the fact that time spent with children is extremely valuable. Not just for the kids, but for the parents as well.

I'm aware of this taking place, but I just don't want it to be overstated. My mother was a feminist, a working mother and she never denigrated motherhood, cooking or keeping a home. I don't think she and many other women in her generation really considered the practicalities of women working in demanding professions such as law or medicine and also keeping a home. Something's gotta give.

Do you mind if I ask how old your mom is now, and if she worked full time when you were a child?

My observation is that having both parents in full time jobs places an enormous time strain on any family. That is, unless substitute parental figures (e.g., nannies or live-in grandparents) are involved.

 

[intothewoods]

This is the part that a lot of people don't seem to focus on: Traditional men never had "everything." My dad missed out on a lot with me growing up, for the simple reason that he had a full time job.

Assuming that the parents are interested, loving and competent, what seems to be ignored so often is the fact that time spent with children is extremely valuable. Not just for the kids, but for the parents as well.

Do you mind if I ask how old your mom is now, and if she worked full time when you were a child?

My observation is that having both parents in full time jobs places an enormous time strain on any family. That is, unless substitute parental figures (e.g., nannies or live-in grandparents) are involved.

Not at all. My mother worked full time, but in a position with flexible hours and light hours in comparison to mine (though my position is flexible and light in comparison to most in my line of work). My dad's job is also flexible. That makes a huge difference.

Oh, she'd be 62.

 

[graceanne]

This is the part that a lot of people don't seem to focus on: Traditional men never had "everything." My dad missed out on a lot with me growing up, for the simple reason that he had a full time job.

Assuming that the parents are interested, loving and competent, what seems to be ignored so often is the fact that time spent with children is extremely valuable. Not just for the kids, but for the parents as well.

I always figure that K gets half of everything and I get half of everything and we share.

But, honestly, K is not meant to take care of children for long periods of time. He gets frustrated and overwhelmed very quickly. When I had pneumonia last year he had to take care of the kids and drive them to and fro and all that for a week and at the end of the week told me, flat out, "I don't know how you do this without killing them."

 

[Netzach]

I find I tend to forget altogether that I have a gender until I'm reminded how much I don't understand people who share mine.

Or the ones who don't. About as much. I never felt like I fit the mold. Or like I wanted to.

The only role models I had were Virginia Woolf characters in High School. Encouraging, not.

 

[graceanne]

I find I tend to forget altogether that I have a gender until I'm reminded how much I don't understand people who share mine.

Or the ones who don't. About as much.

I don't understand anyone, male, female, or other. People are weird.