Is "Gay" A Choice?

[Belegon]

You didn't go to my high school then.

There was a "gay guys" clique, with all the cliché queer mannerisms, who stuck together through hell, high water and the taunting from homophobic (and generally xenophobic) jocks.

As an openly gay (and subsequently openly bi) guy, I was accepted in their ranks and got to know them pretty well, but I was always too "normal" to feel really comfortable with the group. But some of them are my friends to this day.

Turns out a number of the guys in the gang weren't gay at all, but just latched on to whatever group identity that was most like them socially, and bought the sexuality bit as part of the package. It probaby never felt right for them, but on the other hand, their prior experiences with girls, if they'd had any, never felt right either. Which is often the case on that rollercoaster we call puberty and post adolescent insanity.

After school, they went on to realize they were actually hetero, and haven't been interrested in their own gender since. Sexually, I mean. And that their embracing of "gayness" was more about anti-conformity. (and conformity to fit in with the other anti-conformists)

Soinds pretty much like the "political lesbians" to me. But in a difeferent context.

I was in high school in the early eighties. Among our music-based cliques were the new wave/new romantic crowd, which I counted myself among, to a point. It was considered "hip" to identify as bisexual in that crowd, a little less so to ID as gay.

Male fashion flirtation with alternative lifestyles may be less common, but it is not unheard of by any means.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I led such a sheltered life . . .



The closest I got in high school was one chap who was a cheerleader. I met him again in the Army where he was involved with Morale and the like. He may very well have been one of those gays who back in the day just kept quiet on post, finished his hitch and got on with his life. Great guy, I wish I'd had time to get to know him better before I got shipped off to somewhere else. We had a men's chorus he organized that sang rousing English hunting ballads and bawdy madrigals. Great days, those, great days.

 

[Liar]

And, of course, some of the "homophobic" jocks were really gay.

I'd assume as much yeah.

 

[sr71plt]

I led such a sheltered life . . .

Tell me about it. I made it into my early twenties before I realized that guys had been hitting on me high school.

 

[Belegon]

Tell me about it. I made it into my early twenties before I realized that guys had been hitting on me high school.

I always knew they were hitting on me. I took it as a compliment.

 

[sr71plt]

I always knew they were hitting on me. I took it as a compliment.

I was too busy looking into the mirror.

 

[3113]

To portray this curiosity and interest as exclusively male is neither honest nor helpful, gang.

I don't think the observation was meant to portray it that way, Bel. I think that the point is that while there are plenty of het women interested in men who have had sex with men, the stigma of being a gay man is so strong, so fraught with a history of terrible violence, that few men are willing to admit this to their girlfriends, even if their girlfriends might be turned on by it. This has to do with the fact that heterosexual male society has said to males: "Don't you dare be a gay man!" Not the fact that women have no curiosity in man-on-man sex.

On the other hand, while lesbianism that excludes men carries an equal history of violence and social disapproval, dalliances between women is not as quickly condemned. This because male society has said, "That turns me on, and so long as they're doing it to turn me on--not to exclude me--I'm all for it." Historically speaking, most societies have held that women are there to please the men, not vice versa. So what pleases the men is what is what is in, and what doesn't please men is out even if it pleases women.

There is nothing new in women being curious or turned on by gay male sex, but what is new is that a lot gay male stories read by women are now showing up in all kinds of places, including as romance novels in the romance section where women usually get their books. THAT was not at all common till now, with women able to vote with their dollars for it. Stories and images of lesbian sex to turn on men, however, has always been common. Men had the money for it, and men accepted it enough to put it on the market.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I always knew they were hitting on me. I took it as a compliment.

Only one person in all of high school hit on me . . . I think. I was a fool not to return the interest but she had an official boyfriend at the time. Overly gallant, that's what I was.

 

[jomar]

...

I see no reason why those wanting to take the ignore route on another poster can't take full personal responsibility for using the mechanisms the system gives them to make that possible.

...

And/or edit out what doesn't pertain to point.

...

Now, if the ignore feature would only work in such a way that even quoted posts wouldn't show up? Hallelujah! Manu currently has his hands busy with this latest story thing but maybe I should drop him a line.

That would be better than a series tweak. Though, again, I can skim past crap, and lord knows I do that.

 

[Belegon]

I don't think the observation was meant to portray it that way, Bel. I think that the point is that while there are plenty of het women interested in men who have had sex with men, the stigma of being a gay man is so strong, so fraught with a history of terrible violence, that few men are willing to admit this to their girlfriends, even if their girlfriends might be turned on by it.

I have to say that this is unfortunate but true.

Guys are often quick to turn to violence on this issue. A historically recent but very entrenched problem.

I hope that the continuing growth in m/m romantic fiction helps address this to some degree. I would love to see the overhyped stigma lessened.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I have to say that this is unfortunate but true.

Guys are often quick to turn to violence on this issue. A historically recent but very entrenched problem.

I hope that the continuing growth in m/m romantic fiction helps address this to some degree. I would love to see the overhyped stigma lessened.

As would we most. However, if the main audience for M/M romantic fiction is straight women, I fear it a faint hope. Only continued exposure to real life gay people will solve that problem.

 

[sr71plt]

As would we most. However, if the main audience for M/M romantic fiction is straight women, I fear it a faint hope. Only continued exposure to real life gay people will solve that problem.

I agree that the main audience for all themes of M/M fiction seems to be straight women.

 

[john-the-author]

I've got to share this with you: it's an amazing article out of the Weekly Standard. It's the worst article about why gay marriage is a bad idea I think I've ever read. The author, Sam Shulman, is so far beyond "utter dickhead" that there are no words to describe it and even profanity is at a loss here.

If this is the best the Republicans can come up with these days, then it's no wonder they're dying on the vine. And good fucking riddance, I say.

(NB: I had a bad URL in this; it should be fixed now.)

 

[Safe_Bet]

As would we most. However, if the main audience for M/M romantic fiction is straight women, I fear it a faint hope. Only continued exposure to real life gay people will solve that problem.

That's the thing. IF (and a very big if here) people get to know their gay and lesbian neighbors and co-workers they find out that not every gay guy is going to try to seduce their son and redecorate their livingroom and every dyke isn't going to rape their daughter or beat them in arm wrestling. To accomplish this the LGBT community needs to be much more proactive in their outreach.

The days of Bob & Bob the two nasty old "queens" up the street have to go away and be replaced by Bob the PTA board member and his spouse Bob the community activist. The str8s sure as hell aren't coming to us, so now we need to interject ourselves into their world and make ourselves seen and heard.

In other words:

Hope will never be silent.
Harvey Milk

 

[Dragonlipz]

Is obesity a choice?

For you, yes.....

 

[voluptuary_manque]

That's the thing. IF (and a very big if here) people get to know their gay and lesbian neighbors and co-workers they find out that not every gay guy is going to try to seduce their son and redecorate their livingroom and every dyke isn't going to rape their daughter or beat them in arm wrestling. To accomplish this the LGBT community needs to be much more proactive in their outreach.

The days of Bob & Bob the two nasty old "queens" up the street have to go away and be replaced by Bob the PTA board member and his spouse Bob the community activist. The str8s sure as hell aren't coming to us, so now we need to interject ourselves into their world and make ourselves seen and heard.

In other words:

Hope will never be silent.
Harvey Milk

Eloquently put, Sue, and elegantly, as well.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, I can tell you that it did happen. I can't tell you why for sure, but it seemed to me at the time that in part it was trendy. Women who were deeply into feminism were trying to do without men altogether.

When you say that there is less homophobia against lesbians -- do you mean that a man would be more willing to accept a woman with a taste for other women?

Oh... yeah....

Lesbians who come up against homophobes generally get raped and beaten.
Homosexual men get beaten and killed. Some lesbians have been killed of course, and some gay men have been raped.

But many men, especially at that time-- really didn't understand that lesbianism wasn't a show put on for their benefit.

*sigh*

...and I know dozens of readers and writers of M/M fan fiction and romantic fiction and paranormal gay romance who are straight women. And the audience is full of, though not exclusively, straight women.

There are PLENTY of straight women who get turned on by the idea of two (or more) guys together.

To portray this curiosity and interest as exclusively male is neither honest nor helpful, gang.

I have to agree that male homophobic behavior is more publicly extreme... but I don't think the female behavior is any less painful due to its less boisterous average level of expression.

We who do not want labels applied to us should try not to label others...

Slash fans are not homophobic, darling, they are homophilic.

What about kissing another dude to win a bet with your girlfriend?

You win! What does she owe you?

 

[AchtungNight]

I prefer to believe we do have a choice even with science, and that we are intelligent and responsible enough to choose what is best for us. Still, it was an amusing and enlightening cartoon.

 

[Guest]

I prefer to believe we do have a choice even with science, and that we are intelligent and responsible enough to choose what is best for us. Still, it was an amusing and enlightening cartoon.

I prefer to take a bit of science with my life, thanks.

You said on ami's thread that you didn't understand how gays loved each other but you knew you loved your girl.

What is it about her that attracted you? Can you identify specific things that caught your interest, your arousal and your love?

Could you have been responsible enough to stay away from her if (for whatever reason) she wasn't the best choice for you?

 

[Safe_Bet]

I prefer to believe we do have a choice even with science, and that we are intelligent and responsible enough to choose what is best for us. Still, it was an amusing and enlightening cartoon.

I prefer to take a bit of science with my life, thanks.

You said on ami's thread that you didn't understand how gays loved each other but you knew you loved your girl.

What is it about her that attracted you? Can you identify specific things that caught your interest, your arousal and your love?

Could you have been responsible enough to stay away from her if (for whatever reason) she wasn't the best choice for you?

Or been responsible enough (to yourself) to STAY with her in spite of the hate, discrimination and bigotry that you knew you would face?

 

[loganforester]

Or been responsible enough (to yourself) to STAY with her in spite of the hate, discrimination and bigotry that you knew you would face?

Or not just stay away from her but all women if society told you it was wrong to be with them?

I'm not gay or bi, but I certainly understand the power of our innate sex drives. I couldn't stop desiring women no matter what my society tells me and I imagine it's exactly the same for people of the opposite orientation. The bigger question is, why should they have to deny themselves to suit other people? We are who we are and if it hurts nobody else, who are we as a society to tell people who they can love and desire?

The entire argument is a crock of shit. Society has no business in the bedrooms of consenting adults period. Neither does religion. Let consenting adults marry whoever the hell they want to. The fact that this is still being discussed as an issue in 2009 is thoroughly disgusting.

 

[Austin8]

So what is then that causes people to become vegetarians, athletes, poets, stockbrokers or bank robbers?

Most people, if we think about it, probably believe such identities are the result of responses to impulses and convictions that shape people's actions over time.
How the impulse or conviction got there, no one is certain, but there's surely an element of chance involved.
A person chooses to become a teacher, but the desire to teach and the conviction that says being a teacher is right and good --

these cannot sensibly be reduced to a simple act of human will.

 

[cloudy]

So what is then that causes people to become vegetarians, athletes, poets, stockbrokers or bank robbers?

Most people, if we think about it, probably believe such identities are the result of responses to impulses and convictions that shape people's actions over time.
How the impulse or conviction got there, no one is certain, but there's surely an element of chance involved.
A person chooses to become a teacher, but the desire to teach and the conviction that says being a teacher is right and good --

these cannot sensibly be reduced to a simple act of human will.

Of course they can.

God, you're such an idiot.

 

[ericahope]

Like Stella mentioned, they are called Bisexuals, hon. And for this conversation/thread gay men, lesbians AND honest to god bisexuals are included. (BTW, kissing some chick during a frat party to get a rise out of the guys don't earn you any extra points on the Kinsey Scale)

Well, then I think you're misreading what I originally wrote. I wrote that very few people are either born gay or straight. That doesn't mean I think that no one is. I just think that population is very small. What I mean is, that I think the vast majority of people are actually "bisexual" (I don't care for the term or labels in general) - given the opportunity and the right cultural and societal conditions they'd be open to having sex with either gender. If there were no cultural taboos against it I think a lot more people would be doing it.

With the risk of going off on a tangent, I'd point you to one of your own stories. The underlying implication in "Fisting the Flippers" is that two entire squads of cheerleaders are either lesbians or open to the idea of engaging in sexual acts with other women. Clearly you either believe that most women are at least open to the idea or the story is so fantastical that perhaps it should have been submitted under the "Science Fiction" category rather than the "Lesbian Sex" category.

Erica

 

[loganforester]

So what is then that causes people to become vegetarians, athletes, poets, stockbrokers or bank robbers?

Most people, if we think about it, probably believe such identities are the result of responses to impulses and convictions that shape people's actions over time.
How the impulse or conviction got there, no one is certain, but there's surely an element of chance involved.
A person chooses to become a teacher, but the desire to teach and the conviction that says being a teacher is right and good --

these cannot sensibly be reduced to a simple act of human will.

so you believe that if your life influences went differently, you could have swore off women and been gay? That's what you're implying. Perhaps you should demonstrate this theory and change your "lifestyle" just to prove to those of us who think it's a crock, just how easy it can be done.