John McCain says: Yes, we hung the Japanese for waterboarding

[Le Jacquelope]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153.html

Yes, National Review, We Did Execute Japanese for Waterboarding

In a CNN debate with Ari Fleischer, I said the United States executed Japanese war criminals for waterboarding. My point was that it is disingenuous for Bush Republicans to argue that waterboarding is not torture and thus illegal. It's kind of awkward to argue that waterboarding is not a crime when you hanged someone for doing it to our troops. My precise words were: "Our country executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime we are now committing ourselves."

Mr. Fleischer, ordinarily the most voluble of men, was tongue-tied. The silence, rare in cable debates, spoke volumes for the vacuity of his position.

Now Mark Hemingway of the National Review Online has asserted that I was wrong. I bookmark NRO and read it frequently. It's smart and breezy -- but on this one it got its facts wrong.

Mr. Hemingway assumed I was citing the case of Yukio Asano, who was convicted of waterboarding and other offenses and sentenced to 15 years hard labor -- not death by hanging. Mr. Hemingway made the assumption that I was referring to the Asano case because in 2006 Sen. Edward Kennedy had referred to it. (Sen. Kennedy accurately described the sentence as hard labor and not execution, by the way.)

But I was not referring to Asano, nor was my source Sen. Kennedy. Instead I was referencing the statement of a different member of the Senate: John McCain. On November 29, 2007, Sen. McCain, while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida, said, "Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding."

Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain's statement and found it to be true. Here's the money quote from Politifact:

"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."

The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts." Bottom line: Sen. McCain was right in 2007 and National Review Online is wrong today. America did execute Japanese war criminals for waterboarding.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

It sux to be a Jap.

 

[Guest]

Bush supporters, et. al.

Oops.

 

[Boxlicker101]

First, I believe little or nothing that I read in the Huff ington Post. Second, it says no such thing. It does say that Japanese soldiers were convicted of various war crimes, including torture using water, and it does say some of those were hanged. However, it does not say they were hanged for waterboarding. That is one reason I distrust the Huffington Post - because they try to mislead people into believing things that are not true.

Okay, now I challenge anybody to show me where it says that somebody was hanged for waterboarding, and only that offense.

By the way, if you kill somebody while waterboarding him, that would be murder, which is another matter entirely. People may have been hanged for that, but it would be well beyond waterboarding.

ETA: I mean, if somebody is convicted of murder and of discharging a firearm within the city limits, and is sentenced to death for those crimes, he is sentenced for the murder, with the discharging essentially ignored.

 

[sr71plt]

First, I believe little or nothing that I read in the Huff ington Post. Second, it says no such thing. It does say that Japanese soldiers were convicted of various war crimes, including torture using water, and it does say some of those were hanged. However, it does not say they were hanged for waterboarding. That is one reason I distrust the Huffington Post - because they try to mislead people into believing things that are not true.

Okay, now I challenge anybody to show me where it says that somebody was hanged for waterboarding, and only that offense.

By the way, if you kill somebody while waterboarding him, that would be murder, which is another matter entirely. People may have been hanged for that, but it would be well beyond waterboarding.

ETA: I mean, if somebody is convicted of murder and of discharging a firearm within the city limits, and is sentenced to death for those crimes, he is sentenced for the murder, with the discharging essentially ignored.

But what really sucks is that it was the Republican nominee for president who said it, right?

 

[Guest]

OH, Box. *Pats you on your head*

No offense, sweetie, but even if someone mailed you a sealed, notarized copy of John McCain's statement you wouldn't believe it.

We all witnessed this about you before the last election.

Don't trouble yourself over this.

 

[Boxlicker101]

But what really sucks is that it was the Republican nominee for president who said it, right?

No, what really sucks is that a prominent and outstanding person is being misquoted and made to sound as he said something that he did not say. Even if the quote is accurate, which I doubt, he is not saying anybody was hanged only for waterboarding. If a Japanese soldier murdered a dozen POW's and also waterboardered some, and was hanged, he was hanged for the murders, not the waterboarding.

 

[Guest]

No, what really sucks is that a prominent and outstanding person is being misquoted and made to sound as he said something that he did not say. Even if the quote is accurate, which I doubt, he is not saying anybody was hanged only for waterboarding. If a Japanese soldier murdered a dozen POW's and also waterboardered some, and was hanged, he was hanged for the murders, not the waterboarding.

Box?

Look it up.

 

[Boxlicker101]

OH, Box. *Pats you on your head*

No offense, sweetie, but even if someone mailed you a sealed, notarized copy of John McCain's statement you wouldn't believe it.

We all witnessed this about you before the last election.

Don't trouble yourself over this.

Here is the reference to McCain which, I observe, is not a direct quote:

Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain's statement and found it to be true. Here's the money quote from Politifact:


"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."

I know that some Japanese soldiers were convicted of war crimes and that some were hanged. However, there is nothing there that says that anybody was hanged for waterboarding, rather than something more serious.

If you can show me a credible quote by McCain that any Japanese soldier was hanged for waterboarding, and only that, I will believe you.

 

[sr71plt]

Can you make up your mind? Do you mean this:

No, what really sucks is that a prominent and outstanding person is being misquoted and made to sound as he said something that he did not say.

or this?

Even if the quote is accurate.

Wouldn't it be wise to check out what McCain actually said before assuming he didn't say it and running off all indignant and disbelieving? I find it quite believable he said it (so have no reason to need to check it out). This is consistent with the position McCain has always taken on the torture issue. Of course, why should we care what he thinks. It's not as if he ever was personally affected by this, is it? Let those armchair warriors call the shots.

(P.S.: McCain is supporting the Obama administration on all sorts of things now. Doesn't that just fry your gizzard? Why, he has just the right history of trying to slip out of his taxes to be in the Obama Cabinet.)

 

[Boxlicker101]

Box?

Look it up.

Okay, I have looked it up. I don't know how reliable this source is, but the statemen by McCain is given as a direct quote, with quotation marks.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ory-supports-mccains-stance-on-waterboarding/

He says Japanese war criminals were convicted of waterboarding, and he says some were hanged. He does not say they were hanged for waterboarding alone. I know he is opposed to torture, including WB, but he is not saying that anybody was hanged for it.

 

[Guest]

Here is the reference to McCain which, I observe, is not a direct quote:

Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain's statement and found it to be true. Here's the money quote from Politifact:


"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."

I know that some Japanese soldiers were convicted of war crimes and that some were hanged. However, there is nothing there that says that anybody was hanged for waterboarding, rather than something more serious.

If you can show me a credible quote by McCain that any Japanese soldier was hanged for waterboarding, and only that, I will believe you.

Here's one.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ry-supports-mccains-stance-on-waterboarding/\

You won't believe it, though.

But here's a thought. Why don't you get off your ass and do some searching yourself? Instead of always complaining about the links everyone always sends you, SEARCH yourself.

 

[Guest]

Okay, I have looked it up. I don't know how reliable this source is, but the statemen by McCain is given as a direct quote, with quotation marks.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ory-supports-mccains-stance-on-waterboarding/

He says Japanese war criminals were convicted of waterboarding, and he says some were hanged. He does not say they were hanged for waterboarding alone. I know he is opposed to torture, including WB, but he is not saying that anybody was hanged for it.

LOL!

He did say - Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," he told reporters at a campaign event.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Can you make up your mind? Do you mean this:



or this?



Wouldn't it be wise to check out what McCain actually said before assuming he didn't say it and running off all indignant and disbelieving? I find it quite believable he said it (so have no reason to need to check it out). This is consistent with the position McCain has always taken on the torture issue. Of course, why should we care what he thinks. It's not as if he ever was personally affected by this, is it? Let those armchair warriors call the shots.

(P.S.: McCain is supporting the Obama administration on all sorts of things now. Doesn't that just fry your gizzard? Why, he has just the right history of trying to slip out of his taxes to be in the Obama Cabinet.)

Of course he is supporting the president. He is a loyal American. Although I supported McCain, I also support the president now. I disagree with him on some things, and I fear he might be on the wrong track.

 

[Guest]

Never mind, Box. Really.

I'm glad you did search, but I'm not surprised you didn't believe what you found.

Amazing myopia.

 

[sr71plt]

Of course he is supporting the president. He is a loyal American. Although I supported McCain, I also support the president now. I disagree with him on some things, and I fear he might be on the wrong track.

So, you would say that someone--like Amicus, for instance--who declares that he hopes the president's efforts to get us back on track on several fronts fails is not a loyal American? (Could you speak into the mike, please? )

I would agree with you that McCain is a loyal American. Amicus? Not so much.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Never mind, Box. Really.

I'm glad you did search, but I'm not surprised you didn't believe what you found.

Amazing myopia.

Sometimes I feel as if I am pounding my head against a stone wall. I will try this one more time:

McCain said some Japanese soldiers were convicted for waterboarding. Okay, I think we can agree on that.

He said some Japanese soldiers were convicted of war crimes and hanged. Okay, I thik we can agree on that.

Now, that brings up the crux of the matter. Is he quoted as saying that somebody was hanged for waterboarding? I have read the quote several times, and I do not see that it says that. If it does, please post a copy of the quotation with that specific sentence bolded or underlined.

 

[sr71plt]

Now, that brings up the crux of the matter. Is he quoted as saying that somebody was hanged for waterboarding? I have read the quote several times, and I do not see that it says that. If it does, please post a copy of the quotation with that specific sentence bolded or underlined.

Would you be content if we just brought in a band of angels to dance on the head of pin for you?

As Sweets posted, we all know that if you don't want to believe in something, no pile of information is going to dissuade you from what you want to believe. You and mrsw2 should start a televangelism movement together.

(P.S. Sometimes I feel like you've pounded your head against a wall twice too often too. So, we're in agreement on that.)

 

[Boxlicker101]

So, you would say that someone--like Amicus, for instance--who declares that he hopes the president's efforts to get us back on track on several fronts fails is not a loyal American? (Could you speak into the mike, please? )

I would agree with you that McCain is a loyal American. Amicus? Not so much.

That would depend on what those fronts are. I certainly want the pres. to get the US economy on track. However, looking at what he says he wants to do and how he wants to do it makes me wonder about him. I don't believe that extremely high taxes assessed against productive persons will induce them to be more productive.

I must add that criticizing the president and wanting him to fail does not make one a disloyal American. If it did, most of the Americans on this forum, including you and me, would be considered disloyal because of what we said against W.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Would you be content if we just brought in a band of angels to dance on the head of pin for you?

As Sweets posted, we all know that if you don't want to believe in something, no pile of information is going to dissuade you from what you want to believe. You and mrsw2 should start a televangelism movement together.

(P.S. Sometimes I feel like you've pounded your head against a wall twice too often too. So, we're in agreement on that.)

Okay, here is the direct quote that was attributed to McCain:

I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," he told reporters at a campaign event.

"If the United States is in another conflict ... and we have allowed that kind of torture to be inflicted upon people we hold captive, then there is nothing to prevent that enemy from also torturing American prisoners."

If you can, copy the quote and bold or underline the part that says people were hanged for waterboarding people.

BTW, I believe the current enemies will torture Americans and other prisoners regardless of what we do to their prisoners. I believe this because they have been doing it all along.

 

[sr71plt]

I must add that criticizing the president and wanting him to fail does not make one a disloyal American.

"Of course he is supporting the president. He is a loyal American."

Ah, no wonder. You just aren't good at understanding what even you post.

 

[sr71plt]

The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding

If you can, copy the quote and bold or underline the part that says people were hanged for waterboarding people.

I take it English isn't your first language? He didn't identify more than one outcome for those he said were convicted of waterboarding.

You are as frustrating in your mulishness as ever.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I must add that criticizing the president and wanting him to fail does not make one a disloyal American.

"Of course he is supporting the president. He is a loyal American."

Ah, no wonder. You just aren't good at understanding what even you post.

I'm puzzled as to what you mean by that. Criticizing the pres. and wanting him to fail in some things does not make one a disloyal American.

For instance, I decided to vote against W and wanted him to fail in his reelection bid in 2004. I still consider myself to be a loyal american.

BTW, here is the quote again. You still haven't marked what I asked you to.

I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," he told reporters at a campaign event.

"If the United States is in another conflict ... and we have allowed that kind of torture to be inflicted upon people we hold captive, then there is nothing to prevent that enemy from also torturing American prisoners."

 

[sr71plt]

BTW, here is the quote again. You still haven't marked what I asked you to.

Ah, blind in addition to everything else, I see.


That's enough. You are too easy a mark.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding

If you can, copy the quote and bold or underline the part that says people were hanged for waterboarding people.

I take it English isn't your first language? He didn't identify more than one outcome for those he said were convicted of waterboarding.

You are as frustrating in your mulishness as ever.

Okay, it says they were convicted and hung for war crimes, and that AMONG those crimes was waterboarding. That means the people in question were convicted of more than one crime. He was talking about waterboarding at the time, and that is why he singled it out, but he DOES NOT say what the other crime or crimes were.