a discussion thread about moderating this forum

[wmrs2]

I agree. A great many people stand to be disenfranchised if Lit allows unsubstantiated attacks such as we've seen the last couple of days.

Brother cite these post. We the people demand to know who these people are that have made unsubstantiated attacks. If you don't tell us, we'll cut everybody's head off. That way we will get the guilty person. That sounds fair to me.

By the way, did you check out the "Holier Than Thou Porn"? There is a list of these varmints there.

How can we tolerate these unsubstantiated attacks? here is how. Don't build glass houses.

 

[shereads]

Group epithets and personal attacks are equally hate speech, you know.

I'm a member of the ACLU. Sometimes the things they (we) defend turn my stomach. The only speech that needs to be protected is speech that offends community standards. Like pornography.

I'll always object to censorship of social and political ideas, even ugly ideas motivated by hatred and expressed with epithets. I favor banning the mentally unbalanced, obsessively jealous, potentially dangerous, paranoid stalker who attacked our friend, because he is mentally unbalanced, obsessively jealous, potentially dangerous, paranoid, and a stalker.

That said, it's not a public forum but a privately owned business, as sr7plt pointed out, and this discussion might be moot. I disagree that Laurel and Manu don't care about the community, though.

Whatever happens, I hope you'll stick around. That's just selfishness talking.

 

[cantdog]

Whatever happens, I hope you'll stick around. That's just selfishness talking.

I second that. Desperately. We may be wading in turds, here, for all I know, but the AH has you in it. Wade with us, make us anticipate coming here.

 

[Pure]

sdc mod duties

here's what i and penelope and crimson maiden do in the story discussion circle.

all threads must be on topic--the stories or writing.

besides that, there is a general 'civility' rule:

Posting flames in general, insults, or public ridicule over grammar, punctuation, or spelling and so on, is a breach of forum rules. You may, however, say the work's a failure: "It has no drama"; "it has no plot"; "it is incoherent". But if you go after the author personally, that material would be deleted by a moderator (pure or penelope) and you will be warned.

moderators may effectively eliminate threads (spam) or move them. postings may be cut to as to conform to the above. a whole posting could be removed,.

no individual is banned.

lastly, moderators generally do NOT follow the suggestion of some persons above and explain their actions publically. it would be explained in PM only. the appeal would be to Laurel. and further, a person's protest-posting against a particular moderator-action would be deleted; PM only. clearly such things are 'off topic.'
---

these are offered for information only; not as suggestions for AH. AH is a more complex forum with no present restrictions as to content; it is unclear what, if anything, would be 'off topic.'

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you, Pure

...
these are offered for information only; not as suggestions for AH. AH is a more complex forum with no present restrictions as to content; it is unclear what, if anything, would be 'off topic.'

No topic is off topic here. We would like to prevent any continuance of the kinds of hate speech that's become all too common lately.

I'm going to ask if the mods on the BDSM and GLBT forums would explain their methods and concerns-- might be a bit more compareable to our problem.

 

[cantdog]

Well ,that's no fun, pure. What the injured want, here, is to be able to purge the site of turd-throwers, one by one, and seemingly not just purging their posts from the AH, but their every contribution-- posts, stories, poems, pics and PCs-- from the site as a whole. I have posted to moderated forums here at Lit, and found my whole thread moved to the GB. That sort of 'ban' isn't sufficient, I don't think, for the folks who are looking to change things.

As you suggest, this forum is not such a limited one that 'off topic' can be a criterion. Good, I say. In the real world, I am ACLU, and so I believe that no one's liberties are safe if the liberties of the pariahs are not safeguarded. Freedom is never free. I contribute hundreds and hundreds to ACLU, so I can testify wholeheartedly to that. So, in the real world, I can't support 'hate speech' legislation. The criterion is too fuzzy. People with agendas can sabotage the people who bring the society the unpleasant truths it needs to hear, if they can ban public discourse with a label as indefinable as that one. Hate speech can be whatever you dislike, can't it?

 

[sr71plt]

I wonder what part of "this is a private business, not a public forum" you failed to understand, Cantdog.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hate speech can be whatever you dislike, can't it?

Actually, not.

 

[Recidiva]

Well ,that's no fun, pure. What the injured want, here, is to be able to purge the site of turd-throwers, one by one, and seemingly not just purging their posts from the AH, but their every contribution-- posts, stories, poems, pics and PCs-- from the site as a whole. I have posted to moderated forums here at Lit, and found my whole thread moved to the GB. That sort of 'ban' isn't sufficient, I don't think, for the folks who are looking to change things.

As you suggest, this forum is not such a limited one that 'off topic' can be a criterion. Good, I say. In the real world, I am ACLU, and so I believe that no one's liberties are safe if the liberties of the pariahs are not safeguarded. Freedom is never free. I contribute hundreds and hundreds to ACLU, so I can testify wholeheartedly to that. So, in the real world, I can't support 'hate speech' legislation. The criterion is too fuzzy. People with agendas can sabotage the people who bring the society the unpleasant truths it needs to hear, if they can ban public discourse with a label as indefinable as that one. Hate speech can be whatever you dislike, can't it?

I'm of the mind that many things should be legal and hate speech is one of them. Not because I support hate, it's because I support speech.

I also believe that I love this forum because I choose what I wish to see. I don't know exactly what that is, but I think the "disruptive" element is one I probably participate in and enjoy as a form of verbal sparring and challenge to my pre-concieved ideas. I've learned a lot by talking to people that I disagreed with.

If a movie theater offers 40 movies and I only want to see two of them, I don't need them to stop showing the others.

If it however tries to "protect" me and cuts its show list down to 25 movies, but the two I was interested in are not available, I'm gone. I'm afraid that the act of censorship itself is what would make me leave, on the grounds that I'm opposed to censorship more than I'm opposed to hate speech.

I also reserve the right to not care and ignore them. To browse for the posters and subjects that interest me. The posters and the subjects tend to evoke passion.

 

[Liar]

Let's take the moderation a step further.

No more alts. You have one IP address, you have one identity...period.

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so I don't know if it's derailed into flamewar or not, but I just tought I'd post a short reply.

A novel idea, but can't be done, since technical solution based on IP numbers creates more problems than it solves.

Dynamic IP numbers, different users on one router, users accessing Lit from different places (from home and from work). You can't tie an IP number to a person.

 

[xssve]

Just from experience, moderated forums are only as good as the moderator, i.e., someone who has the time and a sincere interest in babysitting a bunch of children.

How many time a day do you think the objection button is hit? I'm willing to bet it's a really big number.

 

[Darkniciad]

Just from experience, moderated forums are only as good as the moderator, i.e., someone who has the time and a sincere interest in babysitting a bunch of children.

How many time a day do you think the objection button is hit? I'm willing to bet it's a really big number.

Considering most people didn't even seem to know that it existed, I wouldn't count on that

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

IT'S ENTERTAINMENT

The internet is entertainment. That's the bottomline. If youre not entertaining you wont cut it online. And the world is your audience. People dont slap their Sunday-go-to-meeting hats on their heads and come here to learn how to be a better neighbor or find out how your corn is doing.

 

[Recidiva]

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so I don't know if it's derailed into flamewar or not, but I just tought I'd post a short reply.

A novel idea, but can't be done, since technical solution based on IP numbers creates more problems than it solves.

Dynamic IP numbers, different users on one router, users accessing Lit from different places (from home and from work). You can't tie an IP number to a person.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of this either.

My husband posts from home and work. Deal breaker.

 

[xssve]

Considering most people didn't even seem to know that it existed, I wouldn't count on that

Every forum on the internet has one and a healthy contingent of people dedicated to wearing it out.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Just from experience, moderated forums are only as good as the moderator, i.e., someone who has the time and a sincere interest in babysitting a bunch of children.

How many time a day do you think the objection button is hit? I'm willing to bet it's a really big number.

BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES, THE MODERATOR IS ALWAYS AN OLD FUCK WHO LIVES WITH HIS MOM, AND IS SCARED SHITLESS TO OFFEND ANYONE. SO HE LETS VERY LITTLE PAST HIS SCREEN. IF IT DOESNT FALL INSIDE THE BARNEY THE DINOSAUR GROUP HUG CATEGORY, FORGET IT.

Thats why Voluptuous Mamasboy would be perfect for moderator.

 

[oggbashan]

...How many time a day do you think the objection button is hit? I'm willing to bet it's a really big number.

In my real-life existence, among other things, I'm Chairman of a Residents' Association.

I seem to spend much of my time dealing with people who enjoy objecting to anything and everything and others who forget that they were ever children or teenagers. As Chairman I will tell anyone who is objecting unreasonably HOW they can express their views but that I, and the association, will not support their objection. The professional objectors exist in every democratic society and Literotica isn't exempt. The GB probably gets the objection button hit more times a day than the AH gets in a year.

There are a few among us who are deliberate shit-stirrers and some who see anything that doesn't fit their world-view as obnoxious. A reasonable sense of tolerance is required if free speech is to be freely practised but challenging posters when they go beyond the normally accepted limits is also valid. However it is probably preferable to ignore those people who continually upset you.

Og

 

[damppanties]

Forum Rules.

I reported a post yesterday and one today. I heard back from a mod today. I was asked, very politely, to report a post if it broke a forum rule. And if it didn't, and just disturbed my forum experience, I was advised to use the ignore function and interact with people who I enjoy.

The forum rules are here.

Both the posts I reported had the text 'hate speech and personal attack' as the reason for reporting.

After reading the rules, I see hate speech isn't covered.

Now, what exactly is a personal attack? Reading rule #5, it doesn't really define it for me. Is that just physical? If it is, I don't understand. There are threats more serious than a threat of physical attack on a porn board, as we have seen here in the past couple of days.

 

[xssve]

What I'm saying is that the sheer logistics of it are daunting: I'm not gonna name names, but there are times in here when I've been attacked out of left field over some misunderstanding, and when I responded in kind, a dozen other people have jumped in without reading back to see who started the aggression - it's called false attribution error, it tends to snowball, and it just adds to the demands on the moderator - to remain absolutely fair, all you can do is tell everybody to shut the fuck up, lock the thread, or spend you valuable time trying to sort it out - I don't believe most moderators get paid for it, and even when they are, it's usually in addition to their other, substantial, duties.

This is literally a tactic some people use to get people booted, i.e., provoke them until they respond and then report them.

I got kicked out of a forum one time for example, while debating PC with a avowed racist, when I quoted a passage that included the "N" word - it got reported, and I got booted - the moderator probably didn't even bother to read the entire post, much less the preceding thread leading up to it.

If you don't want a thread to flame out, don't start it - stick your finger in the fire and you should expect to get burned.

 

[xssve]

In my real-life existence, among other things, I'm Chairman of a Residents' Association.

I seem to spend much of my time dealing with people who enjoy objecting to anything and everything and others who forget that they were ever children or teenagers. As Chairman I will tell anyone who is objecting unreasonably HOW they can express their views but that I, and the association, will not support their objection. The professional objectors exist in every democratic society and Literotica isn't exempt. The GB probably gets the objection button hit more times a day than the AH gets in a year.

There are a few among us who are deliberate shit-stirrers and some who see anything that doesn't fit their world-view as obnoxious. A reasonable sense of tolerance is required if free speech is to be freely practised but challenging posters when they go beyond the normally accepted limits is also valid. However it is probably preferable to ignore those people who continually upset you.

Og

Absolutely.

 

[Recidiva]

Forum Rules.

I reported a post yesterday and one today. I heard back from a mod today. I was asked, very politely, to report a post if it broke a forum rule. And if it didn't, and just disturbed my forum experience, I was advised to use the ignore function and interact with people who I enjoy.

The forum rules are here.

Both the posts I reported had the text 'hate speech and personal attack' as the reason for reporting.

After reading the rules, I see hate speech isn't covered.

Now, what exactly is a personal attack? Reading rule #5, it doesn't really define it for me. Is that just physical? If it is, I don't understand. There are threats more serious than a threat of physical attack on a porn board, as we have seen here in the past couple of days.

In my experience on the GB in particular, if someone posts private information, such as someone's photo, address, phone number, place of work, or something considerably worse, in one case, someone had photos of himself in drag published that he had given to another poster, they will remove a thread entirely and all references to that information. I'm particularly careful not to quote things that I know violate the terms of service and forum rules.

And if someone's consistently spamming, they will be banned or their posts limited and they'll receive the title "Loves Spam" for a while.

There have been occasions where people have threatened others and offered to take it into the real world, and that will be eliminated nearly as soon as it happens.

So there's verbal disapproval or abuse, and then there's direct assault and express intent to harm, and that's a different thing. It goes away fast.

 

[damppanties]

In my experience on the GB in particular, if someone posts private information, such as someone's photo, address, phone number, place of work, or something considerably worse, in one case, someone had photos of himself in drag published that he had given to another poster, they will remove a thread entirely and all references to that information. I'm particularly careful not to quote things that I know violate the terms of service and forum rules.

And if someone's consistently spamming, they will be banned or their posts limited and they'll receive the title "Loves Spam" for a while.

There have been occasions where people have threatened others and offered to take it into the real world, and that will be eliminated nearly as soon as it happens.

So there's verbal disapproval or abuse, and then there's direct assault and express intent to harm, and that's a different thing. It goes away fast.

I understand about spamming and posting of personal information, etc. In this case and right now, I am not interested in that. In the past, I have reported spam and it has been removed.

I am interested in the line where verbal abuse becomes an attack that is not physical. Is that covered under forum rules? What is 'intent to harm'? Is that also only physical?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

It's absurd that porn writers, of all people, object to any expression.

But this is human nature.

The Puritans were villified and discriminated against in England, and moved to America to do the same to others.

 

[Recidiva]

I understand about spamming and posting of personal information, etc. In this case and right now, I am not interested in that. In the past, I have reported spam and it has been removed.

I am interested in the line where verbal abuse becomes an attack that is not physical. Is that covered under forum rules? What is 'intent to harm'? Is that also only physical?

To take this painful example, on the poster/posters that were attacking S&D and Selena, they expressed disbelief. Although this is acutely and inhumanly narcissistic, it's not going to result in anybody showing up at anybody's doorstep or place of work and result in someone's security or privacy being violated.

There was intent to disbelieve and intent to discredit. Not intent to harm.

I think the posters that responded, have more intent to actually harm. Had someone gone and threatened them more concretely with bodily harm, i.e. tracking them down in real life and making them suffer, even that would have stood.

It stops when someone says "We all hate _________ and _______ lives at ___________ and his phone number is ________ and I've just put up an ad on Craigslist revealing all this information and stating that they hate _________ and I can't wait until _________ shows up to kick their ass."

That's intent to harm.

 

[damppanties]

To take this painful example, on the poster/posters that were attacking S&D and Selena, they expressed disbelief. Although this is acutely and inhumanly narcissistic, it's not going to result in anybody showing up at anybody's doorstep or place of work and result in someone's security or privacy being violated.

There was intent to disbelieve and intent to discredit. Not intent to harm.

I think the posters that responded, have more intent to actually harm. Had someone gone and threatened them more concretely with bodily harm, i.e. tracking them down in real life and making them suffer, even that would have stood.

It stops when someone says "We all hate _________ and _______ lives at ___________ and his phone number is ________ and I've just put up an ad on Craigslist revealing all this information and stating that they hate _________ and I can't wait until _________ shows up to kick their ass."

That's intent to harm.

Thank you. As much as this whole situation disturbs me, I understand what you're saying.