embarrassment vs humiliation

[the captians wench]

I think this has been discussed before, but I'm being lazy this morning.

Anyway, I was musing in the shower and letting my mind wonder as I spent the last of my 24 hour pass last night. I drifted to a conversation Jounar and I had not too long ago. Apearently he's taken a liking to humilation play, there's only one issue with that, I don't find much humiliation, or at least not in a degrading way.

His previous sub had issues being displayed online. That to her was one of the worst things he could do. Me, I love it. He can take the most intimate pictures of me, have me post them and I'm happy as a kitten with a ball of string. When I was there with him, he dressed me in boots and my corset and took me out into the hallway of the hotel to take photos of me there. The very idea had me dripping like a leaky fauset.

THere are a few other things he's had me do, that just don't faze me at all.

But, as I've mused here before, there is one sure way to get me to want to run and hide from him. Swinging the weighted nipple clamps I have like tassles on a 1940's stripper. The blush on my face takes over and I have a nearly uncontrollable urge to hide my face from him. Peeing infront of him does the same thing. Still, this is just embarrassment. It doesn't feel degrading in anyway, I just feel silly.

I've tried to think of something that would feel absolutely degrading and humiliating to me but I just can't. So this got me to wondering if maybe my deffinition of humiliation is just a lot stronger than others'.

So how do you make the distinction between embarrassment and humiliation? Or do you even? When you involve humiliation play into your fun time, is it more humiliation, or just embarrassment? Should degradation be assosiated with humiliation,or is that a whole nother animal?

 

[Primalex]

For me, humiliation is done on purpose, embarrassment not.

If you realize that you are not dreaming but that you are really naked on the street, because of the alcohol and then feel ashamed, it's embarrassment.
If you are made standing naked on the street for the purpose of embarrassment and then feel ashamed, it's humiliation.

But this is just my definition.

 

[lilylicious]

I think if it makes you hot, it's (erotic) humiliation. If it doesn't, it's just embarrassing or maybe even degrading.

It sounds like maybe you just aren't into it. *shrugs* I don't know why that may be the case, but I'm wondering if that's more the exception than the "rule" that all subs enjoy humiliation.

 

[the captians wench]

For me, humiliation is done on purpose, embarrassment not.

If you realize that you are not dreaming but that you are really naked on the street, because of the alcohol and then feel ashamed, it's embarrassment.
If you are made standing naked on the street for the purpose of embarrassment and then feel ashamed, it's humiliation.

But this is just my definition.

This is an interesting thought. But what if said girl does not feel shame from standing on that street cornor? is it still humiliation?

I think that's the key, does the feeling of shame or degradation have to go in the equation?

I think if it makes you hot, it's (erotic) humiliation. If it doesn't, it's just embarrassing or maybe even degrading.

It sounds like maybe you just aren't into it. *shrugs* I don't know why that may be the case, but I'm wondering if that's more the exception than the "rule" that all subs enjoy humiliation.

The point here isn't to make me hot, it's just for him to gain amusement at my expence.

I have a friend who will lead me around this club we go to on a leash. As soon as we enter the parking lot, he's walking me around. I'm always the only one actually being lead, while there are usually one or two sub males with leashes attached to their collars, when you even look at their's they blush. Me I'll walk the entire night with my chin high and a huge grin on my face. It does make me hot to be walked, but I'm also proud to be, not ashamed or embarrassed in the slightest.

Any public display makes me hot, but I can't remember one time feeling anything but pride in the situation, so I don't consider it humiliation.

So, perhaps it doesn't even matter what I consider humiliating. Is that deffinition solely in the hands of the PYL?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

So, perhaps it doesn't even matter what I consider humiliating. Is that deffinition solely in the hands of the PYL?

Well no. Because if you don't find it humiliating, then he's not humiliating you, and he's not getting the response he wants.

 

[the captians wench]

Well no. Because if you don't find it humiliating, then he's not humiliating you, and he's not getting the response he wants.

Which is why I'm pondering this question in the first place. *sigh*

 

[ecstaticsub]

I am very much into humiliation play. There are things Daddy has told me to do which for the first second after hearing it , I pause but then I can somehow get into the mindset of just doing it and I end up enjoying doing it but not really feeling humiliated.
Daddy still enjoys it because of that initial expression on my face and the slight hesitation.

What I (we) have found to be really humiliating is when he asks me to do something that I feel I am not very good at. It's the exposing of my weaknesses and fears in front of him that make me feel humiliated. This is always done in private. He is also very supportive and caring about it before, during and after.

Maybe it is really embarrassment, not sure. But it makes me feel vulnerable and dependent, which is what I love, and he does, too.

 

[lilylicious]

This is an interesting thought. But what if said girl does not feel shame from standing on that street cornor? is it still humiliation?

I think that's the key, does the feeling of shame or degradation have to go in the equation?

I have a friend who will lead me around this club we go to on a leash. As soon as we enter the parking lot, he's walking me around. I'm always the only one actually being lead, while there are usually one or two sub males with leashes attached to their collars, when you even look at their's they blush. Me I'll walk the entire night with my chin high and a huge grin on my face. It does make me hot to be walked, but I'm also proud to be, not ashamed or embarrassed in the slightest.

Any public display makes me hot, but I can't remember one time feeling anything but pride in the situation, so I don't consider it humiliation.

I think if you don't feel some kind of shame or embarrassment and you're still turned on, it's not erotic humiliation. It's something else, maybe exhibitionism, maybe pride that you're pleasing your PYL.

The point here isn't to make me hot, it's just for him to gain amusement at my expence.

Maybe you're feeling aroused at being used for his amusement even without humiliation.

So, perhaps it doesn't even matter what I consider humiliating. Is that deffinition solely in the hands of the PYL?

Well no. Because if you don't find it humiliating, then he's not humiliating you, and he's not getting the response he wants.

Lizzie's point is excellent if his intent is to humiliate you. But as you pointed out earlier, you're there for his entertainment and maybe he just enjoys making you do things for his entertainment whether humiliation is involved or not. It's a bonus that you're aroused by it, but that doesn't make it humiliation.

 

[the captians wench]

I think if you don't feel some kind of shame or embarrassment and you're still turned on, it's not erotic humiliation. It's something else, maybe exhibitionism, maybe pride that you're pleasing your PYL.

I most certianly am an exhibitionist, he knows this as I've always been very open about it. I think there's just some part in his mind that thinks I should feel some sort of shame along with the feeling, and I don't. Not that that is an issue, more an observation.

Maybe you're feeling aroused at being used for his amusement even without humiliation.





Lizzie's point is excellent if his intent is to humiliate you. But as you pointed out earlier, you're there for his entertainment and maybe he just enjoys making you do things for his entertainment whether humiliation is involved or not. It's a bonus that you're aroused by it, but that doesn't make it humiliation.

I most deffinitly am aroused by his enjoyment of me, even at my expence, but as you mentioned, it's mearly a bonus not the point.

The point of the topic really has little to do with whether or not I get of on it, that point has little to do with anything these days. My point was more geared towards the difference in mere embarrassment, and humiliation. But maybe where we get our hairs crossed is that I don't feel like one has to be turned on by being humiliated for it to be humiliation play.

There are things that I have do, and do do for his enjoyment that I find revolting. I don't enjoy the act in any way, but I push past it, past my feelings of squick to do it for him. The fact that I can push past my feelings to serve his needs turns me on a great deal. Any opportunity I get to show my dedication to him makes me drip like a leaky fauset. But I never feel the shame or since of degradation that I associate with humiliation play.

I really just curious if this idea that humiliation has to be degrading is an accepted fact, or if it's something my mind has settled on unjustly.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I think that in my own mind, humiliation is something that Master deliberately sets out to inflict on me. Embarrassment is something unplanned and incidental that's a natural occupational hazard of kinky sex games.

Master enjoys verbally humiliating me, sometimes during a scene but sometimes just because the mood takes him. He likes pointing out to me just what lengths I'm prepared to go in his service, what my place is and always will be and what he may or may not have me do for him in the future. The humiliation factor for me is not the acts I perform themselves because I am always proud to please Master. It's something deeper in me. The humiliation comes from knowing that I'm doing X willingly, that there's little or no physical gratification in it for me but that it arouses me nonetheless. It also comes from knowing how utterly mortified I would be in certain people in my life had any idea that I enjoy slavery and the less glamorous aspects of servitude that accompany it. I may not be articulating myself very well here.

I suppose I still have the scandalised angel on my shoulder that prevented me from exploring my submissive side for much of my early adulthood. Knowing what people would think of me seems to be almost as effective as being outed to close family & friends. I think it's something I've retained willingly because I enjoy the kick that being humiliated gives me and if I normalised these things to such a degree that I was completely blasé about them I think the pleasure I derive from some of my service would suffer. That may or may not turn out to be true because the longer I am Master's slave, the more generally blasé I become about the things I do for him.

I think I'm rambling here and failing to make a whole lot of sense. I'll reflect on this and try to make my thoughts more coherent later.

 

[rockcandie]

Can you think of anything that you wouldnt want someone (your Dom or a stranger) taking a close, hard look at?

The contents of your purse?
a journal?
the clutter on your desk?
a log of your internet activity?
the contents of your sock drawer?
The number of dead batteries in your bedroom garbage?

Those are very creative things you came up with, Oberon.

 

[Netzach]

Stag's totally on target with this. Velvet also brought up a component I consider key - exposure outside the comfort zone. I'll often have someone doing something really nasty and tell them "oh if mother could see you now."

Or "if only your boss had a look at this."

It pulls most people out of the fun of the moment and into a very uncomfortable sense of self. Those things aren't necessarily going to work on everyone, but that implication is pretty powerful stuff when you funnel the idea into something higher stakes than random people on the street if they're actually a turn on.

 

[Netzach]

it occurs to me to wonder if exhibitionism and humiliation occur in similar parts of the brain, like the way pleasure and pain are interconnected.

you say you get all wet when you are being showed off.... could it be that you are indeed experiencing some degree of humiliation, but that your brain is processing it pleasurably, rahter than excrutiatingly?

Embarrassment and arousal are so physically close together if you break down what the body does, no?

 

[Netzach]

I most certianly am an exhibitionist, he knows this as I've always been very open about it. I think there's just some part in his mind that thinks I should feel some sort of shame along with the feeling, and I don't. Not that that is an issue, more an observation.

Projection often is the root of this disconnect. I'm guilty of it too, sometimes - assuming that something horribly degrading to me would be degrading to the sub, too.

 

[tisen]

For me, humiliation is done on purpose, embarrassment not.

If you realize that you are not dreaming but that you are really naked on the street, because of the alcohol and then feel ashamed, it's embarrassment.
If you are made standing naked on the street for the purpose of embarrassment and then feel ashamed, it's humiliation.

But this is just my definition.

funny def ))))))))))))

 

[the captians wench]

Kinda what I was thinking...

I'd just read something about how expressions of pleasure are often difficult to tell visually from expressions of pain, which went on to talk about how they are interelated in the brain too, and perusing here led me to ponder whether embarasment and arousal, as you said, are similarly interelated, especially given that the body does very similar things for both.

And, given that all humans are wired uniquely (like neurological snowflakes), its hard to say that Captain's Wench isn't feeling humiliation, but enjoying it too much to identify as such.

Psychology is still an art, after all. It's too variable to ever be a complete science... or so said my psych professor.

This is a very interesting observation and maybe the key here, in my case anyway.

As you listed ways for me to be "exposed" I didn't shy away from any of them. Any sort of journal enty I make is either posted here on the boards, or in an email sent to Jounar. He probably knows more about what goes on in my head at any given moment than I do! I very much lead my life out in the open so exposure in that sense really doesn't make me feel any sort of embarrassment, that I can recognize anyway.

Netz mentioned a tactic I used to use when I was toping, but again it doesn't work on me. Jounar will make a comment from time to time "if she (my mother) only knew" and I quite seriously say "baby, she does know exactly". And my bosses have all seen me in a collar, so they at the very least know something "isn't right" about me. It really wouldn't bother me if they knew more intimate details. Maybe then they'd understand why this whole agressive thing is so hard for me.

He on the other hand is not as open about his private life as I am...tho I'm not sure many are. I don't think his friends even know all the depths of his twisted mind, maybe not even the shallows. *shrug*

But the desired result is his entertainment regaurdless. And he seems to be getting that much anyway. Even if I'm not reacting the way "I should". But he's used to me having a completely different reaction than the one he expected. Something I hear from him often, "You're such a nut. but you're so my kind of nut".

 

[lilylicious]

I'd just read something about how expressions of pleasure are often difficult to tell visually from expressions of pain, which went on to talk about how they are interelated in the brain too, and perusing here led me to ponder whether embarasment and arousal, as you said, are similarly interelated, especially given that the body does very similar things for both.

I think you're onto something with this. It makes a lot of sense and explains the reactions of Wenchie and others I know too.

 

[the captians wench]

i wish i knew where to find studies to test this hypothesis (surely i'm not the first to consider it)...

*giggles* I'm sure there are a few out there who would volentere, but I'm not sure how many would who do not enjoy things most people find embarrassing, so that might throw the curve off.