Topping From The Bottom vs. Communication

[LifelongCyn]

We've been working on communication a lot lately, trying to really pin down what is and isn't working for us in our relationship and what we need from each other to make the relationship better, and the issue of Topping From The Bottom (TFTB) came up. We are all strong personalities with definite ideas and have therefore worked hard on keeping our communication straight forward and honest, with a minimum of the usual mindreading games. This means the pyls often spell out exactly what we want from our PYL. We're not making demands or trying to manipulate our PYL, but still, we're giving as clear a direction as we can. So my question is, when does it stop being communication and start being TFTB?

Oh, and it was the pyls who brought up TFTB.

 

[MisterSir]

We've been working on communication a lot lately, trying to really pin down what is and isn't working for us in our relationship and what we need from each other to make the relationship better, and the issue of Topping From The Bottom (TFTB) came up. We are all strong personalities with definite ideas and have therefore worked hard on keeping our communication straight forward and honest, with a minimum of the usual mindreading games. This means the pyls often spell out exactly what we want from our PYL. We're not making demands or trying to manipulate our PYL, but still, we're giving as clear a direction as we can. So my question is, when does it stop being communication and start being TFTB?

Oh, and it was the pyls who brought up TFTB.

Short answer: Communication is saying "Hey [inset PYL's name here], these are things I won't do and these are things I don't like, but might consider". TFTB is saying "Hey [PYL], these are the things are I want from you and what I want you to do". Part and parcel of being submissive is giving up the right to say "I want you to do this". Also, see the first lines of the signature - take this with a pinch of salt.

 

[FurryFury]

We've been working on communication a lot lately, trying to really pin down what is and isn't working for us in our relationship and what we need from each other to make the relationship better, and the issue of Topping From The Bottom (TFTB) came up. We are all strong personalities with definite ideas and have therefore worked hard on keeping our communication straight forward and honest, with a minimum of the usual mindreading games. This means the pyls often spell out exactly what we want from our PYL. We're not making demands or trying to manipulate our PYL, but still, we're giving as clear a direction as we can. So my question is, when does it stop being communication and start being TFTB?

Oh, and it was the pyls who brought up TFTB.

I believe it becomes the oh so dreaded TFTB when you are manipulating your PYL to get what you want.

Honest, straightforward communication is not TFTB IMO, and is in fact, one of the healthiest things one can do for any relationship.

People LOVE to say you are TFTB but it's so terrible. Unless this comes from your PYL don't pay any attention from people trying to put you down.

 

[LifelongCyn]

Short answer: Communication is saying "Hey [inset PYL's name here], these are things I won't do and these are things I don't like, but might consider". TFTB is saying "Hey [PYL], these are the things are I want from you and what I want you to do". Part and parcel of being submissive is giving up the right to say "I want you to do this". Also, see the first lines of the signature - take this with a pinch of salt.

Thanks for the reply, Mister Sir. I did see your disclaimer, but I'd like to continue the discussion. So, I can say what I don't want, but not what I do want? How is my PYL supposed to know what I'm interested in exploring if I don't express what I want from him? Is it that he should just know? (Do you have a magic decoder ring for pyls? 'Cause I would love one of those!) Or did you mean that part of being a pyl is no longer having my own needs?

I know a lot of this would be unique to each individual relationship. For me, saying I want to explore x, y, and z seems like it would be a positive for a relationship, so long as I'm not also saying I'd like it done this Tuesday, in the library, with a candlestick.

 

[LifelongCyn]

I believe it becomes the oh so dreaded TFTB when you are manipulating your PYL to get what you want.

Honest, straightforward communication is not TFTB IMO, and is in fact, one of the healthiest things one can do for any relationship.

People LOVE to say you are TFTB but it's so terrible. Unless this comes from your PYL don't pay any attention from people trying to put you down.

Thanks, FF. What started this particular train of thought was is there such a thing as too much honest, straight forward communication? When does expressing a need cross the line into demanding a change?

 

[ecstaticsub]

I believe the difference between TFTB and expressing a need or desire is all in the words used and the tone. And the expectation of the result.

If I am feeling like I need attention I will tell my Daddy that I am feeling needy. He may or may not ask if there is something specific that would help me. If he does ask I tell him. If not I let it go and see what happens. If there is something specific that I do feel I need I tell him, respectfully not in a demanding way. It then is up to him to decide whether to give it to me or not.

A few months ago I decided I would really love to try saran wrap mummification. It was something that he had never had never done before and really didn't have a compelling interest. He didn't say no either. I did send him a couple pictures and videos and would bring it up in fantasy stories etc. The day before our last visit he mentioned that he had bought a few rolls. I do not consider that TFTB and neither did he. Now if while he was wrapping me I tried totell him exactly what to do and how i wanted it, well then that would have been too much.

I have also expressed interests by writing stories for him which is something he requested from the very beginning of our relationship.

 

[Adakgirl]

I think there can be. I think you have to pick your most important wants and needs, put those out on the table and communicate them openly so they can be discussed between you and addressed. I don't think that should need be done very often. I do not think bringing up new wants and needs constantly to your PLY... when they happen to come to you, as you realize what they are, is very conductive to a peaceful harmonious relationship.

Most PLYs understand that we are not static creatures. That we grow and change. Some know what our wants and needs are even more than we do. Even when you do tell them, it is their decision if and when to give you what you want, or to whether to fulfill your needs or not. You have to be willing to accept that. I think most PLY's want to make sure their ply's are happy and secure and growing and that their needs are being met. But the PLY's needs come first.

There might be times you will have to lay it on the line and in no uncertain terms tell your when if are not having your needs fulfilled. Is that topping from the bottom? No. If you have to demand change, then something is wrong.

These are the basic needs of all human beings.


Physiological Needs
These are biological needs. They consist of needs for oxygen, food, water, and a relatively constant body temperature. They are the strongest needs because if a person were deprived of all needs, the physiological ones would come first in the person's search for satisfaction.

Safety Needs
When all physiological needs are satisfied and are no longer controlling thoughts and behaviors, the needs for security can become active. Adults have little awareness of their security needs except in times of emergency or periods of disorganization in the social structure (such as widespread rioting). Children often display the signs of insecurity and the need to be safe.

Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness
When the needs for safety and for physiological well-being are satisfied, the next class of needs for love, affection and belongingness can emerge. Maslow states that people seek to overcome feelings of loneliness and alienation. This involves both giving and receiving love, affection and the sense of belonging.

Needs for Esteem
When the first three classes of needs are satisfied, the needs for esteem can become dominant. These involve needs for both self-esteem and for the esteem a person gets from others. Humans have a need for a stable, firmly based, high level of self-respect, and respect from others. When these needs are satisfied, the person feels self-confident and valuable as a person in the world. When these needs are frustrated, the person feels inferior, weak, helpless and worthless.

Needs for Self-Actualization
When all of the foregoing needs are satisfied, then and only then are the needs for self-actualization activated. Maslow describes self-actualization as a person's need to be and do that which the person was "born to do." "A musician must make music, an artist must paint, and a poet must write." These needs make themselves felt in signs of restlessness. The person feels on edge, tense, lacking something, in short, restless. If a person is hungry, unsafe, not loved or accepted, or lacking self-esteem, it is very easy to know what the person is restless about. It is not always clear what a person wants when there is a need for self-actualization.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

We've been working on communication a lot lately, trying to really pin down what is and isn't working for us in our relationship and what we need from each other to make the relationship better, and the issue of Topping From The Bottom (TFTB) came up. We are all strong personalities with definite ideas and have therefore worked hard on keeping our communication straight forward and honest, with a minimum of the usual mindreading games. This means the pyls often spell out exactly what we want from our PYL. We're not making demands or trying to manipulate our PYL, but still, we're giving as clear a direction as we can. So my question is, when does it stop being communication and start being TFTB?

Oh, and it was the pyls who brought up TFTB.

You are going to get an answer from everyone on this board that sounds vaguely similar yet different at the same time. The reason for this is... every relationship is different and what works for one doesn't for another. What one Dom/me thinks is Topping from the bottom another Dom/me won't think is the same.

That being said, I think you've gotten some very good advice on this thread already and I agree with what everyone has said so far. If I had to say where the starting point would be it would be when communication turns into manipulation.

Good thread!

 

[JMohegan]

We've been working on communication a lot lately, trying to really pin down what is and isn't working for us in our relationship and what we need from each other to make the relationship better, and the issue of Topping From The Bottom (TFTB) came up. We are all strong personalities with definite ideas and have therefore worked hard on keeping our communication straight forward and honest, with a minimum of the usual mindreading games. This means the pyls often spell out exactly what we want from our PYL. We're not making demands or trying to manipulate our PYL, but still, we're giving as clear a direction as we can. So my question is, when does it stop being communication and start being TFTB?

Oh, and it was the pyls who brought up TFTB.

If a partner of mine were worried about violating some code of conduct set forth in the BDSM Library, or her friends' relationships, or a collection of kinky books, I'd say that her allegiance was seriously misplaced.

... every relationship is different and what works for one doesn't for another. What one Dom/me thinks is Topping from the bottom another Dom/me won't think is the same.

I agree, but would change the wording in the second sentence, in order to avoid confusion over what I consider to be a confusing and pointless term.

What one Dom/me thinks is disrespectful or unwelcome communication, another Dom/me won't think is the same.

The bottom line is: The only way to find out what types of communication your D-type does/doesn't appreciate is to ask him or her.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

What one Dom/me thinks is disrespectful or unwelcome communication, another Dom/me won't think is the same.

I really like that terminology much better. Thank you.

 

[CutieMouse]

I consider topping from the bottom to be akin to bratty children - you know it when you see it, but not everyone sees it the same way.

 

[Recidiva]

I think it has to do with being manipulative.

It's just like a regular relationship. Ask for something you want freely and honestly. Then let it go.

I believe in freely communicating any random thoughts or desires and not feeling particularly responsible for them other than that my brain said it and I relayed it.

Sometimes it's a one-time thing and expressing it makes it go away or puts it in its proper place, which is insignificant.

Sometimes it becomes more and more real and more and more necessary over time.

Thoughts need space and time to become patterns. There's a gestation period and some things don't make it all the way through.

But talking - always free. Doing takes more effort and the more I'm able to talk about something, the more I can actually calculate investments and risks.

For instance, even if I want to go to the movies...casually thinking it isn't the same as getting the thought out there and seeing whether or not someone's face lights up (now I really wanna go..) or closes up tight (now I don't want to go if you paid me.)

Someone I care about's responses to my thoughts has a serious effect on what I think NOW.

 

[ZRT]

I think it has to do with being manipulative.

Bingo. My first BDSM relationship ended in a train wreck in large part because of precisely this.

If you can't communicate freely and honestly, your relationship is broken, vanilla or otherwise. To me, it indicates a fundamental lack of respect, and respect is huge for me in a relationship.

 

[HarlotMinx]

Assuming we have the right to say anyone is topping from the bottom, I'm not sure we really do, what of a Dom/me bottoming from the top?

The only reason I ask is I was thinking back to a local club and I remembered a conversation with one of the Dommes who was chatting with Moon and I. At one point in the conversation she mentioned that she had to put her hair up in a bun because her sub thought that all Dommes are required to have that to fit the image. And thinking about it further, how many Dom/mes do you know that dress or act in a way to fit a look (Moon had a sub come up to her and tell her she shouldn't wear a choker because people would mistake her for a sub and not treat her with proper respect..... I spit up what I was drinking at the time from laughter)? At first we thought that a sub like that is definitely topping from the bottom but really isn't the Domme then submitting to the sub?

I don't know, I've started to question if topping from the bottom exists or are there simply relationships that exist and we as a community use it to explain away someone else's relationship dynamic that we do not readily agree with? And if indeed topping from the bottom exists what then of Dom/mes? Are they just service tops? Is it then more acceptable for a Dom to cater to a sub than a sub to expect a Dom/me to cater to them?

People are inherently manipulative, it's one thing I think is impossible to escape. We do/say things in order to put a situation in circumstances that favor us or our goals. Even a sub who says their only goal in life is to see their Mistress/Master happy will be manipulative to that end. What if the PYL doesn't want to be happy? I know I don't always want to be happy, sometimes I want to be screaming in anger or helpless with tears not an eternal bliss.

So... where this comes to, if a person is manipulative in a way that benefits their partner's goals, does that then become acceptable? If their goals are differ from yours (we always have some desire that varies from our partner), is it then unacceptable? Moon's been trying to get me to be more vegetarian (it's one of my 5 hard limits ) and it's simply not going to happen... I don't begrudge her for trying though.

Just looking at the topic backwards and upside down.

-poppet

 

[Recidiva]

I now have a girl-crush on HarlotMinx.

Quick, say something stupid, it'll go away.

 

[HarlotMinx]

I now have a girl-crush on HarlotMinx.

Quick, say something stupid, it'll go away.

I'm going to go share my views with the general board so they can properly appreciate me. I'm sure they'll have lots to say on bottoming from the top.

-poppet

edit: The thought of me copying and pasting that last post on the general board has me cracking up. It's like..... well... this.

 

[Recidiva]

Eh, don't really feel like it, sorry hon. I'm going to go share my views with the general board so they can properly appreciate me.

-poppet

edit: The thought of me copying and pasting that last post on the general board has me cracking up. It's like..... well... this.

The GB is harmless.

That video however, is entirely fucked up.

Probably making my crush worse. Dammit.

 

[HarlotMinx]

The GB is harmless.

That video however, is entirely fucked up.

Probably making my crush worse. Dammit.

Does it help if I say that I love to cook from scratch, adooooore cleaning (no really, it's soothing), and I'm a dog and a cat person. *bats eyelashes*

-poppet

 

[Recidiva]

Does it help if I say that I love to cook from scratch, adooooore cleaning (no really, it's soothing), and I'm a dog and a cat person. *bats eyelashes*

-poppet

Fuck. No, no at all.

You're not helping.

I'll be swapping recipes soon. See if I won't.

 

[HarlotMinx]

Fuck. No, no at all.

You're not helping.

I'll be swapping recipes soon. See if I won't.

Hmmmm I guess I could share a few, actually my family has a whole recipe book of various meals that are passed down the family. I make a mean apple butter..... oh my, I do believe I'm hijacking this thread.

-poppet

I'd like to just point out that communication in of itself manipulation. I would say the problem is more the idea of partners having some hidden desire that they aren't sharing with their other but...... that still leaves the question about a sub IS open with their Dom/me but basically dictates how and when they'll submit.

 

[Recidiva]

Hmmmm I guess I could share a few, actually my family has a whole recipe book of various meals that are passed down the family. I make a mean apple butter..... oh my, I do believe I'm hijacking this thread.

-poppet

Sounds good. I have a cookbook I'm putting together myself and just the recipes from the last year or so have filled up a four inch binder and I need a new one.

 

[ZRT]

People are inherently manipulative, it's one thing I think is impossible to escape. We do/say things in order to put a situation in circumstances that favor us or our goals. Even a sub who says their only goal in life is to see their Mistress/Master happy will be manipulative to that end. What if the PYL doesn't want to be happy? I know I don't always want to be happy, sometimes I want to be screaming in anger or helpless with tears not an eternal bliss.

So... where this comes to, if a person is manipulative in a way that benefits their partner's goals, does that then become acceptable? If their goals are differ from yours (we always have some desire that varies from our partner), is it then unacceptable? Moon's been trying to get me to be more vegetarian (it's one of my 5 hard limits ) and it's simply not going to happen... I don't begrudge her for trying though.

It's the degree of deceptiveness and intent, in my opinion. For example, "You broke the vase!" "I didn't mean to!" is a slightly manipulative exchange. It doesn't deny the action, but it tries to mitigate the offense. Most people use that sort of manipulation when they screw up, and it's not necessarily a negative because intent does usually count. On the other hand, "I'm dying of cancer. Wanna suck my dick?" is malicious and reprehensible. Or, taking your example, "I'm going to leave if you don't go vegan!" without an actual intent to follow through on the threat would class as maliciously manipulative.

 

[FurryFury]

GREAT post!



Also, I'd like to say that not only do people manipulate each other, not all manipulation is a bad thing. It's often useful for both parties.

Assuming we have the right to say anyone is topping from the bottom, I'm not sure we really do, what of a Dom/me bottoming from the top?

The only reason I ask is I was thinking back to a local club and I remembered a conversation with one of the Dommes who was chatting with Moon and I. At one point in the conversation she mentioned that she had to put her hair up in a bun because her sub thought that all Dommes are required to have that to fit the image. And thinking about it further, how many Dom/mes do you know that dress or act in a way to fit a look (Moon had a sub come up to her and tell her she shouldn't wear a choker because people would mistake her for a sub and not treat her with proper respect..... I spit up what I was drinking at the time from laughter)? At first we thought that a sub like that is definitely topping from the bottom but really isn't the Domme then submitting to the sub?

I don't know, I've started to question if topping from the bottom exists or are there simply relationships that exist and we as a community use it to explain away someone else's relationship dynamic that we do not readily agree with? And if indeed topping from the bottom exists what then of Dom/mes? Are they just service tops? Is it then more acceptable for a Dom to cater to a sub than a sub to expect a Dom/me to cater to them?

People are inherently manipulative, it's one thing I think is impossible to escape. We do/say things in order to put a situation in circumstances that favor us or our goals. Even a sub who says their only goal in life is to see their Mistress/Master happy will be manipulative to that end. What if the PYL doesn't want to be happy? I know I don't always want to be happy, sometimes I want to be screaming in anger or helpless with tears not an eternal bliss.

So... where this comes to, if a person is manipulative in a way that benefits their partner's goals, does that then become acceptable? If their goals are differ from yours (we always have some desire that varies from our partner), is it then unacceptable? Moon's been trying to get me to be more vegetarian (it's one of my 5 hard limits ) and it's simply not going to happen... I don't begrudge her for trying though.

Just looking at the topic backwards and upside down.

-poppet

 

[lilylicious]

. . . what of a Dom/me bottoming from the top?

Might be an interesting thread topic if we've never talked about it before.

I don't know, I've started to question if topping from the bottom exists or are there simply relationships that exist and we as a community use it to explain away someone else's relationship dynamic that we do not readily agree with?

I'd say the answer to this is yes, particularly since we might have slightly different ideas on where the line between communication and manipulation lies.

To the OP - Maybe you should just let your PYL know that while you want to communicate in a way that is positive to your relationship, you're concerned about over stepping the boundaries and don't want to see as if you're being manipulative. Let your PYL give you specifics on their thoughts on where communication becomes manipulation. At the very least they'll know you're trying to be respectful of their position.

 

[HarlotMinx]

Sounds good. I have a cookbook I'm putting together myself and just the recipes from the last year or so have filled up a four inch binder and I need a new one.

My binder is mostly baking recipes, the jewel of it is my sugar cinnamon coated walnuts... they might as well be a drug, they're that addictive.

GREAT post!



Also, I'd like to say that not only do people manipulate each other, not all manipulation is a bad thing. It's often useful for both parties.

awwww Thank you, actually that cheered me up at a point where I kind of needed it.

I think I'm at a impasse here. There are times where I don't do things and don't want to do things that Moon manipulates me into doing. Now often these things are are for my own good in the end (she's better at that whole planning and organizing thing) and so we enter a gray area. Is it good manipulation or bad? I mean, she's getting me to do things I don't like and don't really do normally but by her own view... and mine after the fact, it helps me. Does this become a good type of manipulation because I give her that power and ultimately I do it even if I don't like it? Personally I feel it's a good manipulation but if I weren't so lucky to have a mistress who I trusted enough to make those decisions or if I had one who manipulated me to do things that weren't in my best interest... I mean where do we judge if a manipulation is good or bad? It all seems like a really gray area to me; like that whole "kill one to save a thousand" idea.

-poppet