Technical question for nitpickers

[Keroin]

I'm busy polishing up my first attempt at a BDSM short story and I have a question regarding the use of capitals in the "Master" title. As it stands, I've used the capital for sentences such as this:

"Today, Master baked me some cookies."

But I used the lower case m for sentences such as this:

"Today, my master baked me some cookies."

This is what I would do if I were using "Mom" in place of "Master" but does it apply in this context?

How sticky is everyone about caps usage?

Also, just a general question, do you enjoy reading stories in first person or not? I ask this because, just recently, I have had two editors tell me they do not like reading first person stories. I found this odd. I'm curious if there is a big first person bias out there that I am unaware of? I understand why many people detest the use of present tense - myself included, most of the time - but first person? I love stories, of any genre, told from that perspective, they feel so intimate.

And, no, there is no baking in the story.

 

[BiBunny]

That's how I'd do it. "Master" with a capital "M" when it's used as a title, and "master" in lowercase for general use. I'd also stick a comma after "today," but then, I'm a little overzealous in my comma usage.

Also, I don't have a problem with first-person stories, so long as they're not just running commentaries of the central character's thoughts and actions. I somehow doubt you'll fall prey to that trap, though. I prefer a well-written first-person story to a third-person one, all other things being equal, because I think it lends a more unique voice to the text.

 

[Keroin]

That's how I'd do it. "Master" with a capital "M" when it's used as a title, and "master" in lowercase for general use. I'd also stick a comma after "today," but then, I'm a little overzealous in my comma usage.

Also, I don't have a problem with first-person stories, so long as they're not just running commentaries of the central character's thoughts and actions. I somehow doubt you'll fall prey to that trap, though. I prefer a well-written first-person story to a third-person one, all other things being equal, because I think it lends a more unique voice to the text.

Thanks BB, that's what my gut told me but you never know.

Slap my wrist re: missing comma. Posting in too much of a hurry.

 

[BiBunny]

Thanks BB, that's what my gut told me but you never know.

Slap my wrist re: missing comma. Posting in too much of a hurry.

You're welcome. And don't pay me any attention about the commas. In case you haven't noticed, I apply them way too liberally, anyhow.

 

[midwestyankee]

You're welcome. And don't pay me any attention about the commas. In case you haven't noticed, I apply them way too liberally, anyhow.

Actually, your liberal use of commas is somewhat conservative, but I digress from dear Keroin's point.

K, your instinct regarding capitalization will seem natural to nearly all of your readers. Some, who are deeply ingrained in the habit of using only lowercase letters to refer to their subly selves, might think it too casual. But they're probably not your primary audience anyway, and it's better to use conventional grammar, capitalization, and punctuation for the sake of readability.

As for your question regarding first-person versus third-person stories, I have a preference for third-person narrative. My reason is that when a writer deals in third-person-land, he or she is forced to show us what is happening with the characters more clearly than with first-person narratives. It's far too common in first-person narratives for the writer to tell us everything that we ought to be discovering through actions, words, and reactions. Instead, we get, "I was bummed by Susan's unwillingness to wear a butt plug to church this morning." Why not show us the interaction between the domly one and Susan that demonstrates the emotional reaction? It's far more interesting, somewhat more ambiguous, and thoroughly richer in texture.

Also, first-person narratives of the erotic variety too often end up sounding like "Aren't I clever-sexy-talented-cool?"

 

[unregistered]

 

[Keroin]

Keroin, I generally prefer third person narratives, mainly due to the fact that most first person stories I've read just didn't work. It's difficult to write well in first. But, when it's done well, the story stands out. Are you planning to submit yours to Lit when finished?

Yes, I am. The genres I usually write in are mainstream and speculative fiction, so this is a big leap outside of my comfort zone. We'll see how it goes.

And thanks to MWY. I'm intrigued to hear so many people admit to a dislike for first person narratives. Interesting. I'll admit, reading some of the stories on Lit, written in first person, was a painful experience. Generally, they struck me as bedroom fantasies hastily patched together to read as a stories. I chose first person and, (gulp), present tense for the story I'm working on because I wanted to create the sensation of eavesdropping into someone's private life. Whether I've succeeded at this or not remains to be seen.

 

[rida]

...Generally, they struck me as bedroom fantasies hastily patched together to read as a stories. I chose first person and, (gulp), present tense for the story I'm working on because I wanted to create the sensation of eavesdropping into someone's private life. Whether I've succeeded at this or not remains to be seen.

I think you just nailed the "first person" narration problem and appeal:
The writing makes you feel like you are given a preferential seat from which to see the event. However, without proper tweaking, you just get a jumbled stream of consciousness with no point to it rather than to "hear yourself speak".

Good luck in your endeavor! I admire people that can write well.

I'll be on the look out for your story on Lit!

 

[Ladythunder]

I, as many have stated, prefer third person past tense stories, also mainly due to the fact most of the ones I have read are just crap.

However, I am intrigued by the eavesdropping on someones life concept; done right it sounds quite plausible.

The other reason I prefer third person is due to the fact when I read a story, I want to be able to create the story in living colour in my minds eye. Far to often there is no supporting detail or far to much of it. I really don't care for the ones that state, 'she was 34-26-34 with a b-cup 5'2 compared to his 6'4 muscle bound frame and 12" cock'


First and foremost, I like a general sense of looks (ie slightly built with flowing red hair or the equivalent) and the freedom to create the image of her on my own and therefore to my tastes to a certain extent rather than having them rammed down my throat.

Besides, who the heck finds a 12" baseball bat of a dick that appealing? Myself, I would be screaming and running for cover coming across something like that!

 

[Keroin]

I think you just nailed the "first person" narration problem and appeal:
The writing makes you feel like you are given a preferential seat from which to see the event. However, without proper tweaking, you just get a jumbled stream of consciousness with no point to it rather than to "hear yourself speak".

Good luck in your endeavor! I admire people that can write well.

I'll be on the look out for your story on Lit!

Thanks rida! I definitely don't want the story to read as a stream of consciousness styled Penthouse letter. I tried writing it in other tenses but it felt flat. I'll let you know when it's up.

 

[Etoile]

First person stories are fine with me. I like them equally to third person stories. What I REALLY REALLY DO NOT LIKE are second person stories. "You turn the key in the lock, ready to enter and find me/him/a sheep waiting for you..." NO! When I'm reading, I want to put myself in the narrator's place, not put the narrator in MY place. I don't WANT to see myself in a story, I want to see the story through someone ELSE'S eyes.

It may just be me, but I immediately hit the back button on any stories written in second person.

 

[FurryFury]

I'd probably use a capital M for Master in too. Then again I usually use a capital M for Mom. I do! LOL!

 

[Keroin]

First person stories are fine with me. I like them equally to third person stories. What I REALLY REALLY DO NOT LIKE are second person stories. "You turn the key in the lock, ready to enter and find me/him/a sheep waiting for you..." NO! When I'm reading, I want to put myself in the narrator's place, not put the narrator in MY place. I don't WANT to see myself in a story, I want to see the story through someone ELSE'S eyes.

It may just be me, but I immediately hit the back button on any stories written in second person.

Ugh, second person! Yes, I run for the hills. I've never read a second person story I've enjoyed. I'm with you 100%.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

As one of Lit's editors, I am old school in writing thought- show me don't tell me.

I won't not read a first person story, because since I also publish, I feel that good writing is good writing, but I lean more towards third person because of the dramatization- I get bored quickly with first person stories because they come out more like instruction manuals than stories.

That said, a lot of first person stories that I read to edit, I will usually suggest to the author to include more dramatization and less narration. A lot of writer's miss that sometimes in what they write in first person as narrative, can simply be turned into dialogue and make the story more interesting.

Not to mention, first person sounds more like diary entries and while people like to read about other people's lives because it closely relates to their own, readers also tend to be more interested in the fantasy aspect of things that third person shows better.

 

[Netzach]

I'm busy polishing up my first attempt at a BDSM short story and I have a question regarding the use of capitals in the "Master" title. As it stands, I've used the capital for sentences such as this:

"Today, Master baked me some cookies."

But I used the lower case m for sentences such as this:

"Today, my master baked me some cookies."

This is what I would do if I were using "Mom" in place of "Master" but does it apply in this context?

How sticky is everyone about caps usage?

Also, just a general question, do you enjoy reading stories in first person or not? I ask this because, just recently, I have had two editors tell me they do not like reading first person stories. I found this odd. I'm curious if there is a big first person bias out there that I am unaware of? I understand why many people detest the use of present tense - myself included, most of the time - but first person? I love stories, of any genre, told from that perspective, they feel so intimate.

And, no, there is no baking in the story.

That jives with my capitalization scheme. Treat as "Mom" or "Dad" for all the fine moms and dads out there.

First person done well is very engaging, but in erotica people kind of like the voyeurism element, I think. I've read a lot of first person that doesn't quite work because the author doesn't know that "I" well enough.

 

[Netzach]

Ugh, second person! Yes, I run for the hills. I've never read a second person story I've enjoyed. I'm with you 100%.

Jeanette Winterson pulls this off in sections. I think Duras' done it too? Bright Lights Big City is written in second and works. You better really really know what you are doing - generally I avoid.

 

[FurryFury]

Ugh, second person! Yes, I run for the hills. I've never read a second person story I've enjoyed. I'm with you 100%.

Me too though I think my story Buffets is written that way. I wonder why I did that?

LOL.

 

[Keroin]

Ugh, second person! Yes, I run for the hills. I've never read a second person story I've enjoyed. I'm with you 100%.

I’m a big, fat liar. Last night I remembered two stories written in second person that I enjoyed. Both were flash fiction and I think the brevity of the story is a large part of the reason they worked. Second person is hard to sustain but in small doses can make an impression.

Then I remembered a piece of flash fiction I wrote in second person. Wow. Pants on fire. Mind you, I’ve never submitted that piece anywhere because I don’t think it was all that stunning.

Off topic: Nala, I love your new avatar!

Back on topic: Third person is great, except I prefer when it’s limited omniscient. Stories written from the All Seeing Eye can feel so lifeless.

I’m getting very nervous, now, about this story of mine. Geez, I hope the first person works! More editing, more editing, more editing…

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

...

Then I remembered a piece of flash fiction I wrote in second person. Wow. Pants on fire. Mind you, I’ve never submitted that piece anywhere because I don’t think it was all that stunning.

Off topic: Nala, I love your new avatar!

...I’m getting very nervous, now, about this story of mine. Geez, I hope the first person works! More editing, more editing, more editing…

K, I'd love to read the flash fiction. My online mag has a March 1st deadline for my April 15th issue. Why not submit it? UnMasked is a paying market too

As for the avatar, thank you very much. I was fooling around at work taking pics yesterday and I sent it to Master and he said it was his new favorite so it became my avatar. Anything to please Master

Also, I'm between editing jobs now so if you want me to look at what you're working on, just sent me a pm and we'll go from there.

 

[Keroin]

K, I'd love to read the flash fiction. My online mag has a March 1st deadline for my April 15th issue. Why not submit it? UnMasked is a paying market too

As for the avatar, thank you very much. I was fooling around at work taking pics yesterday and I sent it to Master and he said it was his new favorite so it became my avatar. Anything to please Master

Also, I'm between editing jobs now so if you want me to look at what you're working on, just sent me a pm and we'll go from there.

Done and done. Will PM shortly.

Thanks Nala!

 

[DVS]

OK, I'll add my point of view to this point of view issue. I'm not going to say anything about the capital letters, as I think that has been resolved. So, on to the POV.

I've been told that first person POV stories are less likely to be preferred by readers, and many editors will tell you that. Third person POV might be seen as less personal in some cases, but it can be easier for readers to insert themselves into a character, which many who read erotica enjoy doing. Some want to experience the forbidden in a storyline that they are too reserved to experience in real life.

Now, I'm not saying first person is forbidden, because it isn't. And I'm sure there are certain instances when first person would work better than third. I wrote a story in first person, telling a true experience of someone. That always works better when told in first person.

That story was first person, past tense. Also, my longest story to date is first person, past tense and it seems to be doing OK. But, if it were me, I'd stay clear of first person, present tense. That is very difficult for me to write well. It seems the reader is just listening to me talk about myself, like I'm on an ego trip. That can be pretty boring to some readers waiting for the erotic moment...unless you are a voyeur, I guess.

As for second person, my first story was written complex POV-second person, present tense and third person, present tense. Obviously, I didn't know much about preferences then, or I might have reconsidered.

But, in defense of that story, it wasn't intended to be a story. It was transformed from a series of emails to a friend. I was setting up a certain scenario for her, trying to set the mood, so to speak. I guess it worked, because she suggested it would be a good story.

Reading that story now, I wish I had been aware of POV preferences, but with that storyline, I also don't know how I could have written it any differently. And, I don't think it's suffered too much because of the POV. The last several chapters have each had a red "H" for a long time. But, I guess you could also say the rest of the chapters might each have an "H" if written in another POV. So much for that, then.

Everybody has their preferences and I'd say just allow the story to come out as it wants. If you have to constantly go back and change your text to correct the POV, you could be forcing yourself to comply with that while the story itself suffers.

You might try writing a few pages of the story in both POVs to see which style flows best for you. Then, decide for yourself what works and go with it...preferences be damned! A good story will always find its audience.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

A good story will always find its audience.

What he said right there.

I'll leave alone the M/master question. As DVS said, it's pretty well been answered, covered and smothered with mushroom gravy.

As for POV, a first person viewpoint in a written story does, as some have said, sometimes sound like braggadocio, and can be difficult for many readers to "get into." For this reason, it's not generally recommended for "newer" writers, e.g., those who haven't been publishing for years. It takes, in my opinion, a much more well-crafted story to catch my interest in first person than does a third person viewpoint.

Another reason third person is easier for many readers to identify with is that it usually offers them multiple options. Some readers may not identify with the protagonist (or even the antagonist); they may instead identify with a "minor" character instead, which can give them an opportunity to "observe" the action. In a sex-related story, particularly one dealing with kinky stuff, it can be more comfortable for someone just beginning to "research" kink to stay outside the main action and be more peripheral to the story line.

I have to admit that when I read a well-crafted story (novel, novelette, novella, short story), I can easily slip into identification with a character (usually the protagonist, but not always), and in my mind be there. That, to me, marks a story that I will probably at some point want to re-read. I can read just about anything (except Gothic romances) and at some time identify with a character, or (if well-written) feel like a fly on the wall, but it's much harder from the first person POV. Perhaps part of that is that I can't think, off-hand, of any commercial writers who write like I think, and if the narrating character ("I") doesn't think/react the way I do, I'm uncomfortable with the character's thoughts.

Therefore, I'm most comfortable as a reader when the POV is third person omniscient (or semi-omniscient) because I can "choose" a character with whom to identify, or even choose to be the "fly on the wall" who observes. And yes, I do have strong voyeuristic tendencies. I think most readers do. (Boy, that one will likely get some negatives! One of the reasons that readers read is to "watch" what happens, either from "within" one of the characters, or from without, but nonetheless watch.

As for second person... ugh. IMNSHO, the only thing second person is good for is cybersex.

There. I hope I've expressed myself reasonably clearly, but after a day of listening to lawyers and witnesses, it's quite possible I've only stirred up the mud on the bottom and made things murkier.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Keroin]

What he said right there.

I'll leave alone the M/master question. As DVS said, it's pretty well been answered, covered and smothered with mushroom gravy.

As for POV, a first person viewpoint in a written story does, as some have said, sometimes sound like braggadocio, and can be difficult for many readers to "get into." For this reason, it's not generally recommended for "newer" writers, e.g., those who haven't been publishing for years. It takes, in my opinion, a much more well-crafted story to catch my interest in first person than does a third person viewpoint.

Another reason third person is easier for many readers to identify with is that it usually offers them multiple options. Some readers may not identify with the protagonist (or even the antagonist); they may instead identify with a "minor" character instead, which can give them an opportunity to "observe" the action. In a sex-related story, particularly one dealing with kinky stuff, it can be more comfortable for someone just beginning to "research" kink to stay outside the main action and be more peripheral to the story line.

I have to admit that when I read a well-crafted story (novel, novelette, novella, short story), I can easily slip into identification with a character (usually the protagonist, but not always), and in my mind be there. That, to me, marks a story that I will probably at some point want to re-read. I can read just about anything (except Gothic romances) and at some time identify with a character, or (if well-written) feel like a fly on the wall, but it's much harder from the first person POV. Perhaps part of that is that I can't think, off-hand, of any commercial writers who write like I think, and if the narrating character ("I") doesn't think/react the way I do, I'm uncomfortable with the character's thoughts.

Therefore, I'm most comfortable as a reader when the POV is third person omniscient (or semi-omniscient) because I can "choose" a character with whom to identify, or even choose to be the "fly on the wall" who observes. And yes, I do have strong voyeuristic tendencies. I think most readers do. (Boy, that one will likely get some negatives! One of the reasons that readers read is to "watch" what happens, either from "within" one of the characters, or from without, but nonetheless watch.

As for second person... ugh. IMNSHO, the only thing second person is good for is cybersex.

There. I hope I've expressed myself reasonably clearly, but after a day of listening to lawyers and witnesses, it's quite possible I've only stirred up the mud on the bottom and made things murkier.

No, these are all excellent points and, as a writer, (who would like to be a better writer), I feel privileged to get a glimpse inside the craniums of readers. Your point about identifying with characters is very true. A reader will gladly sustain belief and overlook some obvious plot glitches if they can connect strongly with at least one character – preferably, but not necessarily, the protagonist.

Where I think first person works well is when the author wants to pull a little prestidigitation. In other words, they set up the reader to see the world through the eyes of the protagonist only to reveal that how he/she sees things is far from reality. This is tricky. A good example of this is The Tin Drum by Gunter Grass. For most of the story, we see the world through the eyes of the protagonist but, every now and then, Grass very subtly slips in a bit of business that is obviously at odds with his hero’s self image. It’s jarring.

Perhaps it is a POV that requires a higher level of skill for a writer?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

As for POV, a first person viewpoint in a written story does, as some have said, sometimes sound like braggadocio, and can be difficult for many readers to "get into." For this reason, it's not generally recommended for "newer" writers, e.g., those who haven't been publishing for years.

Perhaps it is a POV that requires a higher level of skill for a writer?

Mmm... that's kinda what I said. See, I did murk things up!