The "Rape" Gene...

[amicus]

Was surfing my usual nerd channels a bit ago... came across a woman spraying a man with mace and then the man pulled a knife, (with the accompaniment of suitable music and muted screams), and the narrator said something like, the is a human gene in males responsible for the 'rape mentality'.

I tuned out...

But....I thought about it....by the time I went looking for whatever channel I had seen it...it was over.

so I googled, The Rape Gene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape

The brief narration I listened to implied it was an inherited trait from lo, the caveman days...dunno...then I thought of another genetic acclamation of not so long ago, "The Gay Gene", and I chuckled as the connections cascaded.

It was long ago I studied 'Behaviorism', or maybe JBJ can chime in somewhere, ya know, the Skinner Box et al, of a generation past.

A whole train of behavioral traits attributed to genetic abnormalities, criminals aren't really criminal, gays aren't really gay and rapists aren't really rapists, just genetically deficient?

Not trying to start a firestorm here, or even troll, I really did see it on television and it re-opened an old argument from somewhere about free will and determinism or sumpin like that.

They, the producers of the program were optimistic though, they figured with the proper gene manipulation we could eliminate those nasty behaviors and might even replace them with socially acceptable behavior, y'know, kinda like bees in a hive, all them lil workers supporting the queen.

Ah, paradise at last!

Heh!

Always good for a laugh, Amicus...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

It sounds like someone has been reading Heinlein's Beyond This Horizon without paying much attention.

 

[amicus]

If so, I do not remember it and I thought I read about everything he wrote...dunno...

ami

 

[SeaCat]

Was surfing my usual nerd channels a bit ago... came across a woman spraying a man with mace and then the man pulled a knife, (with the accompaniment of suitable music and muted screams), and the narrator said something like, the is a human gene in males responsible for the 'rape mentality'.

I tuned out...

But....I thought about it....by the time I went looking for whatever channel I had seen it...it was over.

so I googled, The Rape Gene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape

The brief narration I listened to implied it was an inherited trait from lo, the caveman days...dunno...then I thought of another genetic acclamation of not so long ago, "The Gay Gene", and I chuckled as the connections cascaded.

It was long ago I studied 'Behaviorism', or maybe JBJ can chime in somewhere, ya know, the Skinner Box et al, of a generation past.

A whole train of behavioral traits attributed to genetic abnormalities, criminals aren't really criminal, gays aren't really gay and rapists aren't really rapists, just genetically deficient?

Not trying to start a firestorm here, or even troll, I really did see it on television and it re-opened an old argument from somewhere about free will and determinism or sumpin like that.

They, the producers of the program were optimistic though, they figured with the proper gene manipulation we could eliminate those nasty behaviors and might even replace them with socially acceptable behavior, y'know, kinda like bees in a hive, all them lil workers supporting the queen.

Ah, paradise at last!

Heh!

Always good for a laugh, Amicus...

Ami,

Never heard of this before. Interesting and I will have to do some follow up study on it. Controversy at it's best.

On the other hand I still have this strong feeling about rape and it's punishment. (Many feel I'm much too barbaric in my ideas.)

As for the genetics of either Rape or Homosexuality. I have not reached any conclusions. Nothing I have seen is concrete. On the other hand I don't see how Homosexuality is a danger as it hurts no one while Rape does.

Thanks for the info and the opportunity to do some more research and learn about humans.

Cat

 

[voluptuary_manque]

If so, I do not remember it and I thought I read about everything he wrote...dunno...

ami

Not you, Ami, the guy with the daydreams about genetics! Heinlein correctly pointed out that one doesn't breed humans 'for'. One can only attempt to eliminate genuinely undesirable traits and attempt to conserve advantageous ones. In the book, the idea that one could attain peace by breeding out aggressiveness was shown to be faulty when those who hadn't had their aggressiveness bred out wiped the pacifists out. You ought to read it. Is a good love story within an armed society.

 

[amicus]

Cjhuckles....I didn't even feel that stiletto until you had slipped it between my missing ribs...such a deal!



ami

 

[manyeyedhydra]

It's very rare that you get a single "X" gene that determines X, especially in an organism as complex as a human being.

It's usually a whole bunch of factors spread between genetics and environment.

Some people could be more genetically predisposed to being rapists, but that same genetic combination could also make them more predisposed to being top businessmen, or sports stars, or anything really.

 

[jomar]

Hi Ami, although I read them, I tend to stay out of your threads since I am mostly amused at your baiting of the usual suspects and leave it to you. Well done.

At any rate, you might want to read Crighton's NEXT, which deals with genetic issues, transgenic pets, etc... in the Crighton way.

In that way, you might be introduced in a different way to the genes that affect behavior.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Not you, Ami, the guy with the daydreams about genetics! Heinlein correctly pointed out that one doesn't breed humans 'for'. One can only attempt to eliminate genuinely undesirable traits and attempt to conserve advantageous ones. In the book, the idea that one could attain peace by breeding out aggressiveness was shown to be faulty when those who hadn't had their aggressiveness bred out wiped the pacifists out. You ought to read it. Is a good love story within an armed society.

And what people forget is that 'undesirable' and 'advantageous' are classic movable goalposts.

Environments change.

 

[amicus]

After Jurrasic Park, I figured the gates would open to both fantasy and fiction as well as science fiction and with the cloned sheep some years back the Brits did, I guess one could imagine almost anything and, hell, science might make it come true...

Amicus...

 

[R. Richard]

Not you, Ami, the guy with the daydreams about genetics! Heinlein correctly pointed out that one doesn't breed humans 'for'. One can only attempt to eliminate genuinely undesirable traits and attempt to conserve advantageous ones. In the book, the idea that one could attain peace by breeding out aggressiveness was shown to be faulty when those who hadn't had their aggressiveness bred out wiped the pacifists out. You ought to read it. Is a good love story within an armed society.

I don't attempt to compare myself to Heinlen, however, I find that I covered much the same ground in my novel, The Last Moon Dance. In The Last Moon Dance the experiment returns to plague the experimenters.

 

[cloudy]

After Jurrasic Park, I figured the gates would open to both fantasy and fiction as well as science fiction and with the cloned sheep some years back the Brits did, I guess one could imagine almost anything and, hell, science might make it come true...

Amicus...

Here ya go.

 

[amicus]

Heh, Hi thar ya lil cannibal or is dat cannibis, prolly spelled that wrong but don't care...read that thread down to this:

:...But, as for Wooly Mammouths? and such like? no. Not only because they became extinct due to climate etc, they were around way back in the day (around when Amicus was born), and would not survive in the climate etc...."

Figured I got ur point...



ami...

 

[cloudy]

Heh, Hi thar ya lil cannibal or is dat cannibis, prolly spelled that wrong but don't care...read that thread down to this:

Figured I got ur point...



ami...

No, doll, that wasn't my point. No matter what you think of me, I'm not that mean-spirited.

You said "science might make it come true," and I was just pointing out that science was already working on it.

 

[amicus]

There is a sci fi thing on now, Serenity", not well done and not watching it really, but an intense part about 'making humans' more like the intellectuals thought they should be by cloning out aggressive behavior and the competitive nature of the beast...something rarely seen in a modern film, well, 2005, I think it is....


I suppose that is part of what I was musing about with the thread about the rape gene, the gay gene, et cetera, and of course there are tons of sci fi stories from all angles...and it does raise both a moral and an ethical question which was a bit glossed over in the thread you directed me to, but it was touched upon.

What are your thoughts on a society that did indeed use genetic manipulation to achieve a desired social creature? There are over 5,000 court cases pending on the Required MMR shots for infants suspected of causing autism in children, just how far should a society go?

Amicus...

 

[DeeZire]

What a coincidence. Not twenty minutes ago I was talking to a guy about the altruism gene and he mentioned a "thrill" gene. The gene affects the way the brain reacts to chemical changes caused by the adrenalin rush of excitement. Those with the "thrill" gene experience a craving to repeat the thrill, while those without it have no desire to ever experience it again. This would explain why some people ride the thrill rides at the fair and others steer clear of them.

It's similar with alcoholism, and many other human traits. Whether mankind wants to manipulate those genes or not will be the question. We're already genetically modifying food - with questionable repurcussions. I would think if human gene manipulation was voluntary, there would be no ethical dilemma. We are, after all, supposed to be free - in a free society - to do what we want with our bodies.

A society that mandated gene-corrective therapy would not be a free society, which would suck. However, if known carriers of the autism gene prefer to leave it untreated, they should be ineligible for government assistance when their offspring require it. You make your bed, you lie in it. I think that's what's missing in society today - accountability. (No I'm not a faux-conservative today. I actually believe this!)

 

[amicus]

And I am not a 'faux Liberal' either when I say that consideration concerning the ability of man through science to alter life by choice, is very, very complicated.

Based on what I have learned of human history, my perception is that whatever will be, will not come into being quietly.

It has seemed, over the many years of human history, such a waste to spend those lives on war and conflict, misery and pain and yet, the very basis of life itself is in competition for resources and the right to reproduce.

If you wish to rise above the human condition, you may indeed, but you isolate yourself from the flow of life as an intellectual elite, be it Priest or Professor and wonder why a sense of completion always escapes.

Were I making predictions from the year 1909, a mere hundred years ago, not in my wildest dreams could I portray the reality of 2009. Could you?

Yet as we discuss and debate with certainty from our polar positions, perhaps neither of us has even a clue, as they, way back when, about what the real future holds and we both know that neither shall live to its fruition.

Ain't that a gas!



Amicus...

 

[xssve]

I does imply there may be help even for ami, should someday we isolate and eliminate the whiny, vindictive, self centered fuckwit gene.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

I'm a socio-biologist. The purpose of life is to get your genes into the next generation. Whatever works sticks around, whatever dont work gets a pink slip from Mother Nature.

I dont recall who did the study, but someone determined that rape often switches 'on' ovulation.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

XSSVE

Liberal girls are easy, thats why Mother Nature lets the fuck-wit gene survive. Plus they generally abort their half-wit, criminal children.

 

[lloyd_5]

What are your thoughts on a society that did indeed use genetic manipulation to achieve a desired social creature? There are over 5,000 court cases pending on the Required MMR shots for infants suspected of causing autism in children, just how far should a society go?

Amicus...

On MMR, the case has been thrown out;

MMR case

Love the quote, "Judge Denise Vowell said that to conclude a child's condition was the result of MMR 'an objective observer would have to emulate Lewis Carroll's White Queen and be able to believe six impossible or, at least, highly improbable things before breakfast.'"

 

[xssve]

XSSVE

Liberal girls are easy, thats why Mother Nature lets the fuck-wit gene survive. Plus they generally abort their half-wit, criminal children.

I think it's more that conservative girls are simply not given a choice for all practical purposes.

 

[WRJames]

Evidence from the twentieth century and so far from the twentyfirst is that men, particularly young men, will rape with abandon if conditions are such that the behavior is socially acceptable. The Japanese in China, the Russians in Austria and Germany, Serbs in Bosnia, Janajaweed in Darfur, every faction in the civil wars in DR Congo -- all show the enthusiasm for rape which lies just below the surface.

Now, like all human tendencies, this may be on a variable scale, with some more prone to rape than others. But stamping out it out completely would probably require elimination of the species, at the least male component of it.

 

[Huckleman2000]

There's a fundamental problem, I think, with applying moral or legal constructs onto natural phenomena. Sexual intercourse by forcible means is common enough in nature - do we even believe that animals "understand" what they are doing? Do animals have a notion of consent, or just submission? This, of course, doesn't excuse human rapists. It's just odd to me to think that natural selection should select for legal or moral criteria.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

WRJAMES

Nature selects traits that spread quickly through the human population, and it selects conveyances that make it happen fastest. I mean, if youre a guy like ROB, who lives with mom, subscribes to NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, and is obsessed with hand washing...well, youre likely more closely related to cave bears than Britney Spears.