Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

[YourCaptor]

YC, you mentioned that you are currently studying in the U.S., but are a citizen of another country. Do you mind if I ask which one?

Cause its up in the air right now, Germany, and what you almost immediately notice about the women and girls is that they are not sexualized like here. Make up, glitter, lipstick, nail polish, fake nails, fake eyelashes, revealing or slacker clothing, etc. You generally don't see that on the street.

 

[YourCaptor]

What's childish about her post?

Ok, for you, her latest post, childish talk bolded. And dont even get me started on all the false accusations.

Dominant woman hits woman on the ass with spoon in MA and gets arrested for assault. Yeah, really this happened, it's not just me spouting out my ass about how I've decided the world is arbitrarily.

Blame the victim much?

Honestly, I don't care what you fail to see. It's being shown and you're sitting there with your hands over your eyes going "you're crazy, I don't see it. "

As a seventeen year old office worker, this is what I saw. Verbatim. Literally.
If you have a daughter and this is the message you want her to get about women with power, fine.

My experiences are not debate of the week club. Believe them, don't, whatever. But they're not something I'm going to debate like a proposal.

Your disbelief is your problem. Your unwillingness to consider that the world is different for women than your fantasy of what it's like based on not being one is your issue, not mine.


Not to mention I've had my share of fun at the shrink's when it comes time to talk about sexuality. I guess you're right, if pushing harder means whining about every single boo boo when you're not fully validated as a pervert, then everyone ought to. I've had as much frustration at the shrink as anyone else. Your point that Dominant women get a free pass in this culture which you are going to cling to like your own personal teddy bear is mitigated highly by the fact that you are not and never will be one ergo have inherently less clue as to what it means to be one. The only way to get a clue is to perhaps pay attention when women talk about their lives and consider what's being said, instead of dismissing every bit of the story.

More listen less talk. I know I'm doing a lot of the talking here but the subject is "what is it like for women" so I may actually know a limited amount of something.

Or just keep up with the sexist blinders on. I really don't care, you pick.

 

[midwestyankee]

No, never! I always wanted to be Baby Spice.

Ah, of course. I'd forgotten about all but Posh and Sporty. It's that nearing-middle-age memory slippage thing.

 

[Homburg]

there a is a great picture of me, my female cousins, and my younger brother all dressed up all spice girls. we didnt have enough girls so we dragged him in and dressed him up as scary spice.

This is a picture I would like to see. Though something tells me that little brother would probably not want it shown around

--

Rock on! Barbie is almost kitschy, after a certain age though. Bratz are demon spawn. And yes, exactly, they are just kids. The thing that is the creepiest is the clothing that is like a tease. Um, they don't have anything to hide! Bleah.

I know! It's crazy.

I still think the thing that creeped me out most about the Jonbenet Ramsey thing was the look inside the kiddy pageants, and how they doll those girls up to make them look so much older *shudder*

I'm still pondering the Spice Girls and girl power being the encouragement to enter male-dominated territory.

And, oh, to read all of you who were the Spice Girls target demographic makes me feel old!

Yeah, it's making me feel old too.

--

Cause its up in the air right now, Germany, and what you almost immediately notice about the women and girls is that they are not sexualized like here. Make up, glitter, lipstick, nail polish, fake nails, fake eyelashes, revealing or slacker clothing, etc. You generally don't see that on the street.

It was like that in the 80's too, aside from the punk/new wave chicks. The German girls in my neighbourhood definitely went with a more natural look. They had a more natural attitude about sex too.

 

[minx1]

They're mostly expectations, have remained expectations, and are going to remain expectations, outside a slim margin of the middle class world. If people had to be paid for it, everything would grind to a halt. The avid refusal you may find on the part of some of us actually has nothing to do with whatever we think you ought to be doing.

I also like a clean house and yummy food. I cover the yummy food part and I expect M to cover the clean house part. We both put in our work hours. The only choices I felt were eliminated for me was the choice to do what I felt best without a steady stream of familial and societal reproach, but I suppose that's the fun of being female. Most women I know who are neat and tidy (because God forbid you aren't) and who reproduce (because God forbid you don't) don't have the sense of being familial disappointment of the decade when it comes to these things. They don't have to explain, excuse, apologize or get the looks.

I think the same.

In that respect I don't think things have changed that much even in the last 20 or so years that I have been working.
When it comes to women, society/work doesn't tolerate extremes. Or rather it tolerates but it doesn't approve.

If you are a dominant woman, you are a bitch or bolshi or trying to be macho and if you are a submissive woman you either have issues or need to get a grip. Either end of the spectrum still gets a raw deal.

Comform, nurture and yes, even get a good job...aim high, just not that high and certainly not at the expense of the things that really matter and as a woman you will be just fine.

It's still there and it still applies.

 

[rinka]

Rock on! Barbie is almost kitschy, after a certain age though. Bratz are demon spawn. And yes, exactly, they are just kids. The thing that is the creepiest is the clothing that is like a tease. Um, they don't have anything to hide! Bleah.

I'm still pondering the Spice Girls and girl power being the encouragement to enter male-dominated territory.

And, oh, to read all of you who were the Spice Girls target demographic makes me feel old!

What really bothers me about Bratz is that that they don't seem to do much else than shopping. In general I see this as a problem with a lot of toys directed at girls; they model and signal inactivity. Even "girl lego" has much less parts than ordinary lego.

The clothes do the same. Boys clothes are loose, with symbols of activity - girl clothes tight, small and less sustainable. And there are so little gender neutral stuff, at least here.

We keep sending the same message that men do and women not as much. Even with great role-models in sports and work-life it's still hammered in. How's that for girl power?

 

[Keroin]

I’ve been following this thread with interest. Currently it resembles a dodecahedron and my brain hurts a tiny bit but I had to jump in with my two cents (sense? maybe) on the girl power/feminism/stereotype thing.

I worked in a male dominated field for years. Male dominated? Heck, it was almost all men and very macho ones at that. One of the foremost organizations in this business had a rule, (whispered behind closed doors), “No niggers or bitches allowed”. This has changed but it was tough when I started, (I once had a male co-worker tell me women were all whores and only good for sucking cock, and no one batted an eye), and I can’t imagine how tough it was for the women who came before me. But I made it, I succeeded. How? Dunno, just wanted it bad enough I guess.

We, (women and men), can’t do much about the big external obstacles we face when pursuing lives outside of the norm. What we can control is our reaction to them and our attitude. I can either bitch and whine and moan about how unfair it all is or I can simply press forward and chip away at whatever is in my path. Why do we all expect change to happen so quickly?

And when it comes to my sexual leanings, well, that’s just one part of me and I don’t define myself by that exclusively. In fact, I consider myself lucky just to come from a place where people have the time and the luxury to debate whether people who like getting their asses smacked are “healthy” or not, because the overwhelming majority of people in the world are more concerned with where the hell they are going to get their next meal. When I feel like pulling a big boo hoo, I try to remember the big picture. Am I suggesting everyone should accept the status quo? No. I’m suggesting we keep things in perspective.

I’m living in a third world country at the moment and the attitude toward women is…deplorable. Women of the western world, trust me, we may have a long way to go but we have much to celebrate, too.

Oh, and I’m too old for Spice Girls. I used to pretend I was Han Solo.

 

[00Syd]

Oh, and I’m too old for Spice Girls. I used to pretend I was Han Solo.

That is awesome. Whenever me and my friends played Star Wars we would all fight to be Princess Leia. If only I had realized then what I know now... that Han Solo is the best, best, bestest character.

 

[JMohegan]

Pardon me for stating the obvious, ladies, but Han Solo is male.

And if we're playing Star Wars, then *I'm* gonna be the one with the swagger and the blaster and the faithful, canine-like companion.

Or I'm not playing. I'm not even gonna watch!

Well.... actually.... I might watch - if Ms. Solo is extremely hot and wears a barely existent & totally unrealistic costume, and pants and swings her boobs around and bends over often. But otherwise, no way.

 

[Recidiva]

Pardon me for stating the obvious, ladies, but Han Solo is male.

And if we're playing Star Wars, then *I'm* gonna be the one with the swagger and the blaster and the faithful, canine-like companion.

Or I'm not playing. I'm not even gonna watch!

Well.... actually.... I might watch - if Ms. Solo is extremely hot and wears a barely existent & totally unrealistic costume, and pants and swings her boobs around and bends over often. But otherwise, no way.

I played Christopher Robin in kindergarten.

I just encouraged my daughter to try out for the part of Puck in Midsummer Night. She didn't get it, but she tried anyway.

Scruffy looking nerf herders are awesome. But I'd probably rather play Ben Kenobi. I'd get to do an accent.

 

[00Syd]

Pardon me for stating the obvious, ladies, but Han Solo is male.

And if we're playing Star Wars, then *I'm* gonna be the one with the swagger and the blaster and the faithful, canine-like companion.

Or I'm not playing. I'm not even gonna watch!

Well.... actually.... I might watch - if Ms. Solo is extremely hot and wears a barely existent & totally unrealistic costume, and pants and swings her boobs around and bends over often. But otherwise, no way.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING??? GIRLS CAN'T BE HAN SOLO, TOO?? HUH?? HUH??

I remember once when I was, I dunno, 9 or 10 my mom took me to Toys R Us to buy a toy as a reward for something or other, and I was allowed to get anything I wanted. I got a Batman toy just because it was some boy-geared toy that people wouldn't expect me to get and I could play with any toy I wanted even though I'm a girl. I talked about it all the way home, how I could like batman too even though I was a girl, and on and on, and I never even really liked the toy or played with it. I don't know if I even knew what I was advocating.

I swear, the level of feminism and anti-authoritarianism drilled into me by my parents was bordering on brainwashing.

 

[JMohegan]

I played Christopher Robin in kindergarten.

I just encouraged my daughter to try out for the part of Puck in Midsummer Night. She didn't get it, but she tried anyway.

Scruffy looking nerf herders are awesome. But I'd probably rather play Ben Kenobi. I'd get to do an accent.

The mind control thing is impressive, no doubt.

Netzach once said she always wanted to be Yoda - which I think, for her, is outstanding. Lifting a ship out of the pond with your aura pretty much trumps everything else.

 

[Recidiva]

The mind control thing is impressive, no doubt.

Netzach once said she always wanted to be Yoda - which I think, for her, is outstanding. Lifting a ship out of the pond with your aura pretty much trumps everything else.

I think also when reading Lord of the Rings I always thought I'd make a better Sam than Galadriel.

Typecasting of a tomboy. I can't imagine trying to keep a white dress clean.

 

[00Syd]

I think also when reading Lord of the Rings I always thought I'd make a better Sam than Galadriel.

Typecasting of a tomboy. I can't imagine trying to keep a white dress clean.

In LOTR I always thought I would be Merry.

And I mean, that books pretty much a boys club. Not many females to choose from in the "who would I be?" category.

 

[eastern sun]

My nine year old daughter has just fully rejected her femininity, just at the point that she's beginning to develop into a woman. I am only allowed to buy clothes from the boys section and she and her friends call each other "dudes."

She doesn't want to be a woman in this society. And neither did I.

I hung out almost exclusively with men and childless women.

It wasn't until I had children of my own that I was suddenly thrust into a world populated almost exclusively by women. A thriving world, rich with culture and tradition and depth that I had been completely ignorant of.

And this world is almost never reflected in our media, unless it is despised. It has virtually no visible power, except in its role in raising the children of the future.

We need to listen to the women. And we need to listen to the men, though I'd like to see greater wisdom displayed than usually found in our culture.

Why do we refuse to listen to people with experience?

Women have won the right to enter the men's domain. And a few men have entered the women's world. But we are still largely separated from one another.

Witness this conversation.

 

[Recidiva]

In LOTR I always thought I would be Merry.

And I mean, that books pretty much a boys club. Not many females to choose from in the "who would I be?" category.

Eowyn is pretty good. The Silmarillion has some pretty kick-ass women. Luthien and Melian and such. I'd probably have to pick Goldberry because Tom Bombadil would be fun to hang with.

 

[Recidiva]

My nine year old daughter has just fully rejected her femininity, just at the point that she's beginning to develop into a woman. I am only allowed to buy clothes from the boys section and she and her friends call each other "dudes."

She doesn't want to be a woman in this society. And neither did I.

I hung out almost exclusively with men and childless women.

It wasn't until I had children of my own that I was suddenly thrust into a world populated almost exclusively by women. A thriving world, rich with culture and tradition and depth that I had been completely ignorant of.

And this world is almost never reflected in our media, unless it is despised. It has virtually no visible power, except in its role in raising the children of the future.

We need to listen to the women. And we need to listen to the men, though I'd like to see greater wisdom displayed than usually found in our culture.

Why do we refuse to listen to people with experience?

Women have won the right to enter the men's domain. And a few men have entered the women's world. But we are still largely separated from one another.

Witness this conversation.

I can't wait to be a crone. Hells yeah.

 

[intothewoods]

Pardon me for stating the obvious, ladies, but Han Solo is male.

And if we're playing Star Wars, then *I'm* gonna be the one with the swagger and the blaster and the faithful, canine-like companion.

Or I'm not playing. I'm not even gonna watch!

Well.... actually.... I might watch - if Ms. Solo is extremely hot and wears a barely existent & totally unrealistic costume, and pants and swings her boobs around and bends over often. But otherwise, no way.

Oh. My. God. It's true - all men are really adolescent boys at heart!

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING??? GIRLS CAN'T BE HAN SOLO, TOO?? HUH?? HUH??

I remember once when I was, I dunno, 9 or 10 my mom took me to Toys R Us to buy a toy as a reward for something or other, and I was allowed to get anything I wanted. I got a Batman toy just because it was some boy-geared toy that people wouldn't expect me to get and I could play with any toy I wanted even though I'm a girl. I talked about it all the way home, how I could like batman too even though I was a girl, and on and on, and I never even really liked the toy or played with it. I don't know if I even knew what I was advocating.

I swear, the level of feminism and anti-authoritarianism drilled into me by my parents was bordering on brainwashing.

My parents got me some toy cars, but they were really lame. I think my parents were both just not connected enough to pop culture to know what the hell a GI Joe was. I never watched the show, but it seems to have been a favorite of guys my age when they were kids. Then again, I never liked barbies or dolls really. I loved dress up, but I also ran around a lot outside and played sports.

My nine year old daughter has just fully rejected her femininity, just at the point that she's beginning to develop into a woman. I am only allowed to buy clothes from the boys section and she and her friends call each other "dudes."

She doesn't want to be a woman in this society. <snip>

Really? That's kinda bad ass. At age 9 puberty hit me pretty hard. I was obsessed with male attention from that point until...hmmm.

 

[JMohegan]

Oh. My. God. It's true - all men are really adolescent boys at heart!

Hey! I was just trying to illustrate Netzach's point, for the intransigent among us.

All goofin' around aside, though, if Syd and I were 8 years old that's almost exactly what I would have said. (Well, minus the hot babe part.)

Part of this might have been ingrained sexism, but the biggest reason would have been that I really, really would have wanted to be Han Solo. Not Luke, who's mostly wimpy and conflicted; not old Ben, who mostly just shuffles and stares; and not Chewy, who has no weapon.

There's a reason that the stormtroopers would have all been short kids and younger brothers. That's just the way the playground pecking order works out.

 

[Netzach]

My nine year old daughter has just fully rejected her femininity, just at the point that she's beginning to develop into a woman. I am only allowed to buy clothes from the boys section and she and her friends call each other "dudes."

She doesn't want to be a woman in this society. And neither did I.

I hung out almost exclusively with men and childless women.

It wasn't until I had children of my own that I was suddenly thrust into a world populated almost exclusively by women. A thriving world, rich with culture and tradition and depth that I had been completely ignorant of.

And this world is almost never reflected in our media, unless it is despised. It has virtually no visible power, except in its role in raising the children of the future.

We need to listen to the women. And we need to listen to the men, though I'd like to see greater wisdom displayed than usually found in our culture.

Why do we refuse to listen to people with experience?

Women have won the right to enter the men's domain. And a few men have entered the women's world. But we are still largely separated from one another.

Witness this conversation.

"Men and Childless women"

talk about existing in a liminality, no offense.

Another reason I always felt embraced by feminism, which has reinvented or renewed reproduction as holy rite.

If you think that this sphere is maligned, try staying not a part of it throughout your life.

Men will dismiss your observations as childish, women will dismiss your robservations as not entirely trustworthy nor aligned with the cause.

 

[Netzach]

I think the same.

In that respect I don't think things have changed that much even in the last 20 or so years that I have been working.
When it comes to women, society/work doesn't tolerate extremes. Or rather it tolerates but it doesn't approve.

If you are a dominant woman, you are a bitch or bolshi or trying to be macho and if you are a submissive woman you either have issues or need to get a grip. Either end of the spectrum still gets a raw deal.

Comform, nurture and yes, even get a good job...aim high, just not that high and certainly not at the expense of the things that really matter and as a woman you will be just fine.

It's still there and it still applies.

Wow, this is the same chilidsh shit I was saying five pages back that's so patently not-true.

 

[Netzach]

I’ve been following this thread with interest. Currently it resembles a dodecahedron and my brain hurts a tiny bit but I had to jump in with my two cents (sense? maybe) on the girl power/feminism/stereotype thing.

I worked in a male dominated field for years. Male dominated? Heck, it was almost all men and very macho ones at that. One of the foremost organizations in this business had a rule, (whispered behind closed doors), “No niggers or bitches allowed”. This has changed but it was tough when I started, (I once had a male co-worker tell me women were all whores and only good for sucking cock, and no one batted an eye), and I can’t imagine how tough it was for the women who came before me. But I made it, I succeeded. How? Dunno, just wanted it bad enough I guess.

We, (women and men), can’t do much about the big external obstacles we face when pursuing lives outside of the norm. What we can control is our reaction to them and our attitude. I can either bitch and whine and moan about how unfair it all is or I can simply press forward and chip away at whatever is in my path. Why do we all expect change to happen so quickly?

And when it comes to my sexual leanings, well, that’s just one part of me and I don’t define myself by that exclusively. In fact, I consider myself lucky just to come from a place where people have the time and the luxury to debate whether people who like getting their asses smacked are “healthy” or not, because the overwhelming majority of people in the world are more concerned with where the hell they are going to get their next meal. When I feel like pulling a big boo hoo, I try to remember the big picture. Am I suggesting everyone should accept the status quo? No. I’m suggesting we keep things in perspective.

I’m living in a third world country at the moment and the attitude toward women is…deplorable. Women of the western world, trust me, we may have a long way to go but we have much to celebrate, too.

Oh, and I’m too old for Spice Girls. I used to pretend I was Han Solo.

This is precisely, precisely WHY submissive women's articles on why Feminism is a huge oppressive bummer of a thing piss me off to no end.

Please move somewhere your demeanor is a norm, not a choice for a while. Talk to the other happy subbies.

It may not be perfect, but parts of this oppressive feminist doctrine remain extremely lifesaving and necessary to people who don't have a lot of breaks. Should they want to use it, should they want to make it theirs. A lot won't and some will.

 

[Keroin]

This is precisely, precisely WHY submissive women's articles on why Feminism is a huge oppressive bummer of a thing piss me off to no end.

Please move somewhere your demeanor is a norm, not a choice for a while. Talk to the other happy subbies.

It may not be perfect, but parts of this oppressive feminist doctrine remain extremely lifesaving and necessary to people who don't have a lot of breaks. Should they want to use it, should they want to make it theirs. A lot won't and some will.

Um, I don’t understand? Why should I move? I’m here by choice – did I say I was unhappy?

I’m a very happy…ugh, I hate labels…subbie. I don’t need to talk to anyone else, I know myself and I trust my own judgment. I’m also one of the very few women who will stand up to the men here, which, I guess, makes me a kind of role model. Much needed role model, I should add. (Though being a foreigner puts me in a slightly different class).

Besides, I hate it when it’s simple.

 

[Recidiva]

This is precisely, precisely WHY submissive women's articles on why Feminism is a huge oppressive bummer of a thing piss me off to no end.

Please move somewhere your demeanor is a norm, not a choice for a while. Talk to the other happy subbies.

It may not be perfect, but parts of this oppressive feminist doctrine remain extremely lifesaving and necessary to people who don't have a lot of breaks. Should they want to use it, should they want to make it theirs. A lot won't and some will.

I think there's room for both.

It can be an extremely lifesaving and necessary measure.

It can also be a hugely oppressive bummer to some.

 

[Netzach]

Um, I don’t understand? Why should I move? I’m here by choice – did I say I was unhappy?

I’m a very happy…ugh, I hate labels…subbie. I don’t need to talk to anyone else, I know myself and I trust my own judgment. I’m also one of the very few women who will stand up to the men here, which, I guess, makes me a kind of role model. Much needed role model, I should add. (Though being a foreigner puts me in a slightly different class).

Besides, I hate it when it’s simple.

I didn't mean this TO you, specifically, I meant in accordance with your reaction to where you live. Feminism isn't perfectly comfortable for every woman in it, big deal - there are, as you witness every day, bigger problems than a few Western women's dissatisfaction.