Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

[00Syd]

For what it's worth, my best (i.e., most satisfying overall) year in the last twenty was the one that I spent as Mr. Mom with our then newborn son. Now, I did that without a career in progress, as mine was politely described as being "in hiatus at the moment," but it was my choice at my suggestion. I did do some work out of the house but my main focus for that school year was raising #3 while keeping the house clean, the laundry done, and the meals prepared on time.

And yes, I got more than my share of odd stares when I did grocery shopping with an infant in the basket after nap-time in the afternoon. Eh....that was their problem and not mine.

That is great.


Haha you should have seen the looks I got from people on the street when I was babysitting this infant and the only way to calm him down when he was crying was to take him on a walk in the stroller, when I was 14.

 

[the captians wench]

That is great.


Haha you should have seen the looks I got from people on the street when I was babysitting this infant and the only way to calm him down when he was crying was to take him on a walk in the stroller, when I was 14.

I was holding my mom's best friend's newborn in church and I got some very strange looks until some one came up and started asking me questions then ending with "she looks just like you". They all seemed very shocked that at 13 I was not interested in having children....of course my church was in a very "quiet town" and I lived "in the city" so they all thought I was some sort of inner city hoodlem anyway.

 

[JMohegan]

When I think of "girl power" messages, I immediately think of encouragement to use sexuality to your advantage. Girls are certainly encouraged to play sports, to think about what they'll do when they grow up, but I find the whole tween thing - revealing clothes sold to really young girls, the books, tv shows, etc - to be really disheartening and gross.

When I think of "girl power" messages, I think of encouragement to be anything a man can be, and assistance in breaking into traditionally male fields or areas of interest.

You, too, can be a NASCAR driver!

Which is fine, of course, except that I can't help thinking it should be about something more.

 

[Homburg]

I like GTA. My favorite part was killing the hooker I just fucked and getting my money back plus some.

I was apparently weird in that I didn't kill the hooker. I considered it a worthwhile transaction and left her alone.

--

The fact that this same cutback on recess and "excess energy" is leading to a nation of obese and diabetic girls doesn't seem to be as problematic?

Since when does anyone have the obligation to mention each and every possible permutation, problem, or consequence to every argument? JM was rather pointedly asking me about boys, so that was the direction the answer took.

To address your question though, yes. It is.

Boys inherently have to jump around and play guns and blow shit up because they're boys, I don't debate that to an extent. There *is* a blow shit up gene that rides on the Y. We know that. But risk mitigation has taken a lot of the fun out of girlhood, too. For thousands of years in one form or another. Do we seriously think that the human female has less inquisitiveness, sense of adventure, disobedience potential and fun with loud noises or is it maybe something we kind of train in and reinforce? I wasn't a weenie because I'm a weenie, I was because I was expected to be. Sex work was the first totally risky non-weenie thing I think I ever did in my life, that's a bit of a late bloom. Some families, of course, being crazier than others.

And girls are defined by ---?

Usually girls.

That said, risk aversion is everywhere. Again, I was asked to address my thoughts on the boy side of the equation. I think what is being done to the girls sucks too. I do what I can to change it in my little sector of the world.

--

Thanks for answering my question, Homburg. Given your response, I'll revisit the original point from your earlier post.

I can relate to some of your frustration. As a kid, I never understood why the neighbors complained about me setting model airplanes on fire and launching them out of the attic window. I mean, really, there's not much cooler than watching something like that. And besides, the wreckage almost always landed in our yard!

That sounds dead cool.

When talking about empowering kids, though, I'm looking at the bigger picture. And it seems to me that a boy growing up in your world has plenty of role models for male success, as well as outlets for society-celebrated boy energy of many kinds.

Proximity to the military-industrial complex has nothing to do with playground access, and everything to do with role models and evidence of our society's combined economic & political commitment to combat. A much more powerful and influential validation for testosterone than plinking in the woods.

Eh. At seven, he has no notice of it. While there are military personnel in our neighbourhood, regs say they can't wear the uniform unless on duty, or traveling to and from, so they're rarely in uniform. And proximity wouldn't matter much either way, as his grandfathers are solid military role models (one retired as a Master Sgt in the army and the other a boot-strapped LCDR in the Coast Guard).

And, no, plinking in the woods is much more testosterone than just living near military bases, especially these days. Loud noises, destruction, guns, and control of same; what more is needed for a boy? Seriously, I've watched live-fire exercises with Cobra helos. They were stupendously cool, but being out in the back forty with a .22 was much more satisfying. My son? Every once in a while he'll see a Raptor patrol fly overhead on route to Langley. Lotsa museums around here too. But putting him in the action would satisfy him more.

As he gets older, and becomes more aware of his surroundings, it may have some more influence. Right now though, his world is small enough that all the bases in the area don't mean much.

Acknowledging the dominance of male sports in the entertainment world and violence in video games was not to encourage participation in one or the other, but simply to show that the application of male energy (real or fantasy) is celebrated throughout our society.

Putting all of this in the context of your exchanges with Netzach, I'm wondering what "girl power type messages" are being aimed at your daughters. Are the messages as pervasive? As explicit? As strong?

Examining what my kids are specifically watching and being exposed to in the areas that I control, and am aware of, yes. The message is quite to strongly to get an education, not let life tell you that you can't do something, be creative, get out and play, etc. The boys get similar messages in somewhat different formats.

Kids shows today are as likely to have strong female characters as strong male characters. Many kid shows have strong female leads. Dora, Blue, Dragontales, Wonderpets, etc.

 

[Homburg]

You, too, can be a NASCAR driver!

Which is fine, of course, except that I can't help thinking it should be about something more.

Danica Patrick kicks ass. Okay, so she's not quite NASCAR, but still...

 

[00Syd]

When I think of "girl power" messages, I think of encouragement to be anything a man can be, and assistance in breaking into traditionally male fields or areas of interest.

You, too, can be a NASCAR driver!

Which is fine, of course, except that I can't help thinking it should be about something more.

That's always been my feeling too, but I can't think of what more it could be. What more is there besides "You can do everything you want to do!"?

 

[BiBunny]

That's always been my feeling too, but I can't think of what more it could be. What more is there besides "You can do everything you want to do!"?

"You can do everything you want to do, and you won't have to apologize to anyone for it." Maybe?

 

[JMohegan]

And, no, plinking in the woods is much more testosterone than just living near military bases, especially these days. Loud noises, destruction, guns, and control of same; what more is needed for a boy? Seriously, I've watched live-fire exercises with Cobra helos. They were stupendously cool, but being out in the back forty with a .22 was much more satisfying. My son? Every once in a while he'll see a Raptor patrol fly overhead on route to Langley. Lotsa museums around here too. But putting him in the action would satisfy him more.

As he gets older, and becomes more aware of his surroundings, it may have some more influence. Right now though, his world is small enough that all the bases in the area don't mean much.

My parents were mad liberal and borderline hippies. My father never taught me to shoot anything. For one reason or another, I've never tried to learn on my own. Heck, I've never even picked up a gun.

I'm not saying that my dad was right about this. I've got a lot of respect for people who teach their kids how to hunt dinner, for example. And what you describe does sound like a hell of a lot of fun! I only mention it so you'll know why I can't relate.

Examining what my kids are specifically watching and being exposed to in the areas that I control, and am aware of, yes. The message is quite to strongly to get an education, not let life tell you that you can't do something, be creative, get out and play, etc. The boys get similar messages in somewhat different formats.

Kids shows today are as likely to have strong female characters as strong male characters. Many kid shows have strong female leads. Dora, Blue, Dragontales, Wonderpets, etc.

Something I remember, from my elementary years in particular, is that girls seemed to have a tremendous advantage in school.

For one thing, they never seemed to have much trouble sitting still. And for another thing, they always seemed to be able to relate to the teachers (who were, themselves, female) in ways that I never could. Chatting about stuff that had no relevance in my world, and valuing things like neat handwriting or poetry - which to this day I consider to be pointless.

 

[intothewoods]

When I think of "girl power" messages, I think of encouragement to be anything a man can be, and assistance in breaking into traditionally male fields or areas of interest.

You, too, can be a NASCAR driver!

Which is fine, of course, except that I can't help thinking it should be about something more.

But remember the Spice Girls? They used to say "girl power" all the time. That's the reason I associate it with the sexy message. Well, that and you see the catchphrase printed on tween shirts. As a kid, girl power was more about, I don't know, encouraging girls to do math and science.

For what it's worth, my best (i.e., most satisfying overall) year in the last twenty was the one that I spent as Mr. Mom with our then newborn son. Now, I did that without a career in progress, as mine was politely described as being "in hiatus at the moment," but it was my choice at my suggestion. I did do some work out of the house but my main focus for that school year was raising #3 while keeping the house clean, the laundry done, and the meals prepared on time.

And yes, I got more than my share of odd stares when I did grocery shopping with an infant in the basket after nap-time in the afternoon. Eh....that was their problem and not mine.

Very cool, yanks. In my neighborhood, it's common to see men with strollers and baby wrap carriers. I swear it's even more common than when mine was a baby.

 

[JMohegan]

That's always been my feeling too, but I can't think of what more it could be. What more is there besides "You can do everything you want to do!"?

I like BiBunny's addition a lot.

What seems missing to me, though, is acknowledgment that there's real power in defining the goal.

Aspiring to achievement in traditionally male fields or areas of interest is good, but identifying, fostering, and celebrating something that most men have never focused on or sought to achieve is great too.

I'm trying to think of an example, and the one that's popping into my head at the moment is Oprah. She's got this touchy-feely talk show that many women apparently love but most men just don't care about, right? She took her skills and interests and applied them in a female-focused endeavor, and in the process developed extraordinary influence and outstanding economic success.

Oprah probably could have been a female sportscaster or news anchor, if she put her mind to it. But she chose a different goal and found her own, female-focused, power instead.

I'm not trying to imply that it's all about accumulating massive wealth. I'm just using Oprah as an example of what I mean by defining a non-traditional-male goal because she's recognizable by everyone here.

 

[Homburg]

My parents were mad liberal and borderline hippies. My father never taught me to shoot anything. For one reason or another, I've never tried to learn on my own. Heck, I've never even picked up a gun.

I'm not saying that my dad was right about this. I've got a lot of respect for people who teach their kids how to hunt dinner, for example. And what you describe does sound like a hell of a lot of fun! I only mention it so you'll know why I can't relate.

I can dig that. I really dig grow up in a different world from most people.

It is fun. Basically harmless too, so long as the person doing it is a good kid. I can remember going out with BB guns (another favourite, T-friendly, no longer condoned activity) with my cousin, and he decided to shoot at a bluejay. We very nearly came to blows. I was fine with the idea of hunting, but killing for sport was sickening. I'm sure I didn't change his mind, but he never did it around me again.

I had the opportunity to go hunting and never did. The only animals I've ever shot at were poisonous snakes. They're dangerous. No hunting, nor killing for sport. Killing copperheads on a farm was just keeping your stock safe.

And I don't give anyone grief for keeping guns away from their kids. It's their prerogative. People make value judgements about guns, and I can dig it, regardless of my own opinions on the topic.

Something I remember, from my elementary years in particular, is that girls seemed to have a tremendous advantage in school.

For one thing, they never seemed to have much trouble sitting still. And for another thing, they always seemed to be able to relate to the teachers (who were, themselves, female) in ways that I never could. Chatting about stuff that had no relevance in my world, and valuing things like neat handwriting or poetry - which to this day I consider to be pointless.

Hah, yeah, I remember those days. I was a literature geek, so had no trouble discussing poetry, but I never could understand why neat handwriting was important. Sure, it was pretty to look at, but my handwriting conveyed the intended message in a perfectly workmanlike manner.

--

But remember the Spice Girls? They used to say "girl power" all the time. That's the reason I associate it with the sexy message. Well, that and you see the catchphrase printed on tween shirts. As a kid, girl power was more about, I don't know, encouraging girls to do math and science.

I wanted to respond to your comments vis a vis sexualising tweens. That is a hot button for me. I despise that sort of behaviour. They're just kids! I put a ban on Barbie, but they still arrived as gifts from folks that didn't know. I won't throw them away (they're Veterinarian Barbie and some other career-specific one that really relates to Eldest Daughter's interests), but you can bet your ass that if any Bratz dolls show up, they're gone.

 

[JMohegan]

But remember the Spice Girls? They used to say "girl power" all the time. That's the reason I associate it with the sexy message. Well, that and you see the catchphrase printed on tween shirts. As a kid, girl power was more about, I don't know, encouraging girls to do math and science.

Actually, no. I mean, I've heard of the Spice Girls but have no idea what they said.

The math/science thing is exactly what I'm referring to with: "traditionally male fields or areas of interest."

 

[JMohegan]

I can dig that. I really dig grow up in a different world from most people.

It is fun. Basically harmless too, so long as the person doing it is a good kid. I can remember going out with BB guns (another favourite, T-friendly, no longer condoned activity) with my cousin, and he decided to shoot at a bluejay. We very nearly came to blows. I was fine with the idea of hunting, but killing for sport was sickening. I'm sure I didn't change his mind, but he never did it around me again.

Sickening, yes, and misnamed when they call it a "sport." Unless that animal's got a gun and a will & ability to aim, no rules of fair play could apply.

Kids in my neighborhood play laser tag, indoors, and paintball in the woods. I've never done either, but the latter at least sounds as if it would be fun. Not as T-friendly as guns with real ammo, no doubt, but an improvement in the sense that you get to aim at live, moving targets - who enhance the game by shooting back.

 

[00Syd]

I have to just pop in and comment that The Spice Girls were at their peak when I was the ideal age for it (7,8,9 yo), and yes, I was a huge fan. At the time the main appeal was "hey look at these cool girls who look great and kick butt!" And I mean, I guess looking back now I can see how they might not have been the ideal purveyors of the "girl power" message, but at the time it was very empowering, at least on a schoolyard level.

I remember after hearing some of their music and singing it with my best friend and having in depth discussions about which Spice Girl we would be, I felt much more confident telling the boys who called us "buttheads" that they were buttheads too.

 

[midwestyankee]

I have to just pop in and comment that The Spice Girls were at their peak when I was the ideal age for it (7,8,9 yo), and yes, I was a huge fan. At the time the main appeal was "hey look at these cool girls who look great and kick butt!" And I mean, I guess looking back now I can see how they might not have been the ideal purveyors of the "girl power" message, but at the time it was very empowering, at least on a schoolyard level.

I remember after hearing some of their music and singing it with my best friend and having in depth discussions about which Spice Girl we would be, I felt much more confident telling the boys who called us "buttheads" that they were buttheads too.

I'm guessing Posh.

 

[Homburg]

Sickening, yes, and misnamed when they call it a "sport." Unless that animal's got a gun and a will & ability to aim, no rules of fair play could apply.

Very emphatic agreement. Hunting is not "sport". Hunting is hunting.

I don't even agree with the so-called dangerous game safaris, where people hunt such deadly nasties as lions and cape buffalo. If you are not there to provide food, remove a danger to life or livestock, or some other useful purpose, it is pointless destruction of a creature with the same right to live that you have.

Kids in my neighborhood play laser tag, indoors, and paintball in the woods. I've never done either, but the latter at least sounds as if it would be fun. Not as T-friendly as guns with real ammo, no doubt, but an improvement in the sense that you get to aim at live, moving targets - who enhance the game by shooting back.

Heh, the fact that your target shoots back makes paintball and airsoft all sorts of T-friendly. I'd be willing to argue that it can be even more T-friendly. After all, you can give it another go if you lose, unlike live ammo

 

[00Syd]

I'm guessing Posh.

No, never! I always wanted to be Baby Spice.

 

[myinnerslut]

No, never! I always wanted to be Baby Spice.

i was always sporty spice when we played.

 

[00Syd]

i was always sporty spice when we played.

My best friend was always Sporty, too.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm guessing Posh.

I was Posh. (God knows why.) And I was 13 when they first became popular. My friends and I were losers, LOL.

 

[myinnerslut]

there a is a great picture of me, my female cousins, and my younger brother all dressed up all spice girls. we didnt have enough girls so we dragged him in and dressed him up as scary spice.

 

[00Syd]

there a is a great picture of me, my female cousins, and my younger brother all dressed up all spice girls. we didnt have enough girls so we dragged him in and dressed him up as scary spice.

LOL. I was going to an all girls sleep-away camp at the time and I couldn't even begin to count the amount of times we dressed up as Spice Girls and we dressed up the councilors as Spice Girls. I also remember my best friends mom taking us to see the movie. That was so epic.

 

[intothewoods]

I wanted to respond to your comments vis a vis sexualising tweens. That is a hot button for me. I despise that sort of behaviour. They're just kids! I put a ban on Barbie, but they still arrived as gifts from folks that didn't know. I won't throw them away (they're Veterinarian Barbie and some other career-specific one that really relates to Eldest Daughter's interests), but you can bet your ass that if any Bratz dolls show up, they're gone.

Rock on! Barbie is almost kitschy, after a certain age though. Bratz are demon spawn. And yes, exactly, they are just kids. The thing that is the creepiest is the clothing that is like a tease. Um, they don't have anything to hide! Bleah.

I'm still pondering the Spice Girls and girl power being the encouragement to enter male-dominated territory.

And, oh, to read all of you who were the Spice Girls target demographic makes me feel old!

 

[YourCaptor]

Dominant woman hits woman on the ass with spoon in MA and gets arrested for assault. Yeah, really this happened, it's not just me spouting out my ass about how I've decided the world is arbitrarily.

Blame the victim much?

Honestly, I don't care what you fail to see. It's being shown and you're sitting there with your hands over your eyes going "you're crazy, I don't see it. "

As a seventeen year old office worker, this is what I saw. Verbatim. Literally.
If you have a daughter and this is the message you want her to get about women with power, fine.

My experiences are not debate of the week club. Believe them, don't, whatever. But they're not something I'm going to debate like a proposal.

Your disbelief is your problem. Your unwillingness to consider that the world is different for women than your fantasy of what it's like based on not being one is your issue, not mine.


Not to mention I've had my share of fun at the shrink's when it comes time to talk about sexuality. I guess you're right, if pushing harder means whining about every single boo boo when you're not fully validated as a pervert, then everyone ought to. I've had as much frustration at the shrink as anyone else. Your point that Dominant women get a free pass in this culture which you are going to cling to like your own personal teddy bear is mitigated highly by the fact that you are not and never will be one ergo have inherently less clue as to what it means to be one. The only way to get a clue is to perhaps pay attention when women talk about their lives and consider what's being said, instead of dismissing every bit of the story.

More listen less talk. I know I'm doing a lot of the talking here but the subject is "what is it like for women" so I may actually know a limited amount of something.

Or just keep up with the sexist blinders on. I really don't care, you pick.

Ugh, I am done with this childish argument.

You know if you did not want to discuses the issue why did you even start.

 

[intothewoods]

Ugh, I am done with this childish argument.

You know if you did not want to discuses the issue why did you even start.

What's childish about her post?