Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

[00Syd]

I was thinking about gen x v. millenials. Doing it all seems to be a bit back in vogue to me.

It seems that way to me, too.

 

[Netzach]

Doing it all as a life decision versus doing it all because how else is it going to get done are different, and more people fall into the latter camp.

The degree to which doing what has to be done is being presented as something that should reflect on you, as an avenue for self-expression is kind of - weird.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm entering this conversation quite late in the game, but want to throw in my two bits as well.

My perception is that women and men have lived largely separated from one another throughout human history. Coming together for the purposing of fucking and continuing the species, but separating frequently for long periods of time to take care of the "business" of staying alive.

It's only recently that we have localized in these little nuclear groups with a man and a woman and their offspring. And only since then have these huge debates about gender roles developed.

 

[JMohegan]

I was thinking about gen x v. millenials. Doing it all seems to be a bit back in vogue to me.

Litigation is out. Ha ha, oh that makes me laugh. Good luck to her, truly. I'd write more on the topic but I've been dragged into...you guessed it. When the economy goes bad, litigation pays the bills.

Good luck to you, truly, as well.

I don't care what gender anybody is, or what generation they're in. Working full time and arranging for someone else to care for your kids while you do so is NOT "doing it all." It's doing it the traditional male way.

And the traditional male did not "do it all." He missed out on a whole hell of a lot of time spent with his kids.

We're talking tradeoffs here, not right or wrong. I'm making no judgment about the decisions parents make.

But I do think the implication that "doing it all" = "doing it the traditional male way" is dismissive of parents in general and traditional female contributions to society in particular. Because, in my view, it dismisses the importance of what goes on between parent and child.

 

[Homburg]

Look, I'm as sorry for the next person who had an insanely overbearing mother as I am for my own mother - but that doesn't somehow negate 2000 years of patriarchy and then some.

Okay, let's make something very clear, so we can cut down on the hot Straw Man-on-Man action here.

I am NOT saying that sexism is dead.

I am NOT saying that the patriarchy is dead.

You are wound up over this, and have every right to be, but please, I'm asking, don't imply things that aren't present. Sexism is alive and well, and so is the patriarchy.

The point that I am trying to make, and YC seems to concur, is that there are cracks in the facade. Not EVERY male has been raised to follow the same generalisations you are bandying about, and not every female is being raised that way as well. You are yourself proof that not every little girl gets brainwashed to the Barefoot and Pregnant end of the pool.

You have two or three women presumed reasonably intelligent and rational (I'm excluding myself because I'm bordering on neither) in this thread alone saying "yup, that jives with my experience" but because two of you have issues with your moms our experience is somehow invalidated and not "quite right" even though we're the people living every day with a pussy. You're going to tell us how in fact, we have the sexual upper hand in this country, women are encouraged to be sexually dominant, sexual power in women is seen as a good thing simply because you, personally, have a dog in the hunt as to how poorly female sexual submission is seen.

This is actively insulting. Thank you so much.

 

[Homburg]

To me, professed male domestic incompetence just looks like evidence that traditional gender roles & responsibilities are still firmly in place. I'm guessing that the guy who claims to be incapable of doing laundry or disciplining a child still somehow manages to operate a lawn mower or drive home a nail.

Not really. I suck at yardwork (chronic allergies growing up meant that I did not do any yardwork at all), and am only minimally competent at woodworking. I'm pretty damned good at turning wrenches though. That is one of the few traditionally male roles that I excel at. I'm better at dealing with my kids than I am at swinging a hammer, and, frankly, probably better at laundry than yardwork. Now, if you have a busted lawnmower and need it fixed? I'm your guy.

I decided as a kid that when I owned a house, the yard would be rocks. I have a townhouse now, and the front "yard" isn't, but only because the HOA won't allow it. The back "yard" is largely rock and sand. It makes me happy.

Ultimately, I'd say that real power is economic power, and this is the realm in which women have come far. If she has an education and job experience, then she's got the power to say fuck you and walk out the door without imperiling her own basic health and well-being.

Very good point.

 

[Netzach]

Okay, let's make something very clear, so we can cut down on the hot Straw Man-on-Man action here.

I am NOT saying that sexism is dead.

I am NOT saying that the patriarchy is dead.

You are wound up over this, and have every right to be, but please, I'm asking, don't imply things that aren't present. Sexism is alive and well, and so is the patriarchy.

The point that I am trying to make, and YC seems to concur, is that there are cracks in the facade. Not EVERY male has been raised to follow the same generalisations you are bandying about, and not every female is being raised that way as well. You are yourself proof that not every little girl gets brainwashed to the Barefoot and Pregnant end of the pool.

When it doesn't happen it's an exception. Not a rule. It happens in SPITE of everything.

This is actively insulting. Thank you so much.

So's the notion that because of Peg Bundy and Lucy Liu in a catsuit my life is somehow easier than women like Polly's. Or even better, the assumption that I am the problem for them, which is something I see constantly in the femsub community - OMG it's demanded of me to be more like --- you - ew! So the blame doesn't go with wherever the expectations come from (often the individual) but with women whose principals are different and whose values are different.

I'm not merely talking about women who ID as SM Dominant or top or whatever, but feminists who have issues with M/f M/s. I don't agree with that line of thinking, but I can think of reasons people might find it problematic other than being frigid, ridiculous, or beneath honest consideration. I don't feel like my sexuality is reconciled to my politics, and I don't think my sexuality is feminist.

As feminism goes, my sexuality is a train wreck. Feminism needs my dollars, voice, and awareness more than it needs my cunt, though. The fact that people actively encourage one another to cut and run on - again - the only theories to give women opportunity, safety, success, and pretty much anything - because they're offended about the cunt issue - uh, yeah, I do have a problem with that.

Meanwhile I have positively no judgement, interest, or real care in the vagaries of femsub sex life. Rock on with your bad self. A level of disdain is often assumed to exist to the point where some real disdain starts to arise. The inability to enjoy the same things is recast as "you think you're so high and mighty" no, but really, screw off, I don't enjoy or get it, and this isn't for lack of exposure. It's like trying the green eggs and ham and saying "no, really, they're OK, but nothing great." The world is pretty much foisting them off on you just as eagerly as sam I am ever did. Everyone around you freaking loves them, there's got to be something wrong with you.

I remember the rape fantasy thread, and being one of two women who actively have tried to FORCE OURSELVES to come up with rape fantasies and figure out some way that surely, they ought to work for us.

WTF? This obviously does not seem to work the opposite way (maybe people try and rid themselves of rape fantasies, but I don't know any women who FORCED themselves to try and get off on the notion of subjugating a man in any way) and I don't know any men who have sat around in this endeavor, trying to get off on the notion of being raped/ravished so they could feel more - normal.

In short, various non submissive women have become the locus for blame in this community for the stinky tons of self-hating propaganda that submissive women are stuck with. I question the validity of that kind of blame-slinging, and I don't think FDoms are the ones harshing anyone's sexual mellow. Notice how many of us are around the SM community at large. I share the suspicions of many that we're actually not that rare, but the crappy crap woman hating miasma of a lot of the FDom scene is kind of keeping a lot of people at a distance who actually fit the description.

Beyond that, sexism in the M/f community can't hardly hold a candle to the sexism in the F/m community. But this isn't widely dissected or acknowledged. Grrl power is us, right?

 

[intothewoods]

Good luck to you, truly, as well.

Frankly, I'm probably going to just give up at some point soon. Actually in about nine months. Folks, I have another annoucement. Ah, just kidding.

ETA: I don't meant to sound flip to any law student who thinks they can achieve work-life balance. I'm just jaded and burnt out.

I don't care what gender anybody is, or what generation they're in. Working full time and arranging for someone else to care for your kids while you do so is NOT "doing it all." It's doing it the traditional male way.

And the traditional male did not "do it all." He missed out on a whole hell of a lot of time spent with his kids.

We're talking tradeoffs here, not right or wrong. I'm making no judgment about the decisions parents make.

But I do think the implication that "doing it all" = "doing it the traditional male way" is dismissive of parents in general and traditional female contributions to society in particular. Because, in my view, it dismisses the importance of what goes on between parent and child.

I hear what you're saying. When I think about the perfect "do it all" working mom, she has some amazingly flexible gig that allows her to work reduced hours, work from home, etc., parent her child and cook fabulous gourmet meals consisting of local, organic ingredients. But it usualy doesn't work out. Every part-time working mom I know is miserable.

 

[Homburg]

When it doesn't happen it's an exception. Not a rule. It happens in SPITE of everything.

And I said it was an exception. Multiple times. All I was trying to show is that the exception is less uncommon these days. Again, my experience. *shrug* YMMV

And, frankly, that the male perspective may be different on the power issue. That you might just not see males revelling in their power, or even feeling like they have any.

So's the notion that because of Peg Bundy and Lucy Liu in a catsuit my life is somehow easier than women like Polly's. Or even better, the assumption that I am the problem for them, which is something I see constantly in the femsub community - OMG it's demanded of me to be more like --- you - ew! So the blame doesn't go with wherever the expectations come from (often the individual) but with women whose principals are different and whose values are different.

*blink*

There is a difference in feeling insulted because a demographic that you identify with is challenged, and an ad hominem.

I remember the rape fantasy thread, and being one of two women who actively have tried to FORCE OURSELVES to come up with rape fantasies and figure out some way that surely, they ought to work for us.

This is something I didn't understand then, and still don't. Why force yourself to do that?

WTF? This obviously does not seem to work the opposite way (maybe people try and rid themselves of rape fantasies, but I don't know any women who FORCED themselves to try and get off on the notion of subjugating a man in any way) and I don't know any men who have sat around in this endeavor, trying to get off on the notion of being raped/ravished so they could feel more - normal.

Again, maybe I am thickheaded, or weird or something, but I don't have a need to feel normal. Especially not normal in this particular arena.

 

[Netzach]

And I said it was an exception. Multiple times. All I was trying to show is that the exception is less uncommon these days. Again, my experience. *shrug* YMMV

And, frankly, that the male perspective may be different on the power issue. That you might just not see males revelling in their power, or even feeling like they have any.



*blink*

There is a difference in feeling insulted because a demographic that you identify with is challenged, and feeling insulted because someone said something pointed directed at you as an individual.

I apologize for the degree to which that was an ad-hominem low blow. That was lame of me, and not my usual MO.

However the degree to which I think I have some handle of expertise on my own life being repeatedly invalidated as "impossible" or "unlikely" or "not accurate" because of your notions of how the culture works as a Dominant male seems a bit more than a "challenge."

I am explaining real live observable shit that's out there. It's no mystery, it's not limited to me and the ten people I know. Sexual dominance among women is even less validated than sexual submission. It raises more eyebrows, gets more uncomfortable reaction, is minimized as a joke in heavy rotation because it is *not supposed to be.* If you laugh about it enough, maybe it will go away. Women are supposed to be accomodating, pleasing, easygoing, conciliatory, and make people comfortable. All the time.

But not, you know, too much. I mean, you're supposed to be agreeable to anything, but not willing to ask him what he wants and then do it. That's overkill. ITW nailed it - when it moves from tacit and involuntary to sought, that's the fine line. However enslaved she may want to be, we're talking about independent drives and desires - the thing no one, no society, no other person can control. I can control what a slave does, and I can shape what s/he thinks, but we both know that the motor inside is not in our power, not anyone's.

But as for female Dominance, even the tacit is a living breathing nightly joke.

I mean look how badly Michelle Obama got it for maybe not doing that perfectly out the gate, making everyone really really comfortable. And she's never tried to eclipse Barack for a second - this has to do with everyone else.

Ironic, in the degree to which this kind of invalidation is a theme of the submissive women speak essays.

This is something I didn't understand then, and still don't. Why force yourself to do that?

Maybe because there actually IS an amount of value placed on female vulnerability, powerlessness, and submission across the whole board? Nah.

Again, maybe I am thickheaded, or weird or something, but I don't have a need to feel normal. Especially not normal in this particular arena.

None of the above. You didn't get the same memo. Normalcy and fitting in are generally higher priority among most women, and I wonder how that came to be.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I'm just tired of the endless pile of text on the theme of "waah feminism hasn't sanctioned my sex life."

It hasn't exactly sanctioned anyone else's unless your a lesbian satisfied to hold hands and talk about power struggle.

It took me a long time to get over that. I wanted to have my cake and eat it too.

*goes back to reading thread*

 

[rosco rathbone]

By the way, I'm sick of Paul Krugman's whining. He's like the guy who gets slapped for screaming "we're all gonna diie-eee".

Even if he's right.

 

[Netzach]

It took me a long time to get over that. I wanted to have my cake and eat it too.

*goes back to reading thread*

Same.

It finally made sense to me.

 

[Netzach]

By the way, I'm sick of Paul Krugman's whining. He's like the guy who gets slapped for screaming "we're all gonna diie-eee".

Even if he's right.

LMAO.

 

[rosco rathbone]

This was a great read. People talking about intense issues with passion and mutual respect.

The GB could take lessons from yall.

 

[Homburg]

I apologize for the degree to which that was an ad-hominem low blow. That was lame of me, and not my usual MO.

It's cool. To be honest, it stood out because it is not your style.

However the degree to which I think I have some handle of expertise on my own life being repeatedly invalidated as "impossible" or "unlikely" or "not accurate" because of your notions of how the culture works as a Dominant male seems a bit more than a "challenge."

I am explaining real live observable shit that's out there. It's no mystery, it's not limited to me and the ten people I know.

Okay, I'm with you. I really am. I'm just trying to figure out why the real world observable shit that I've seen is invalid? We can agree that there is an exception to every rule? Statistically, it is not impossible that my experience is of a collection of exceptions. I'm perfectly fine with saying that.

I am just of the opinion that it is possible that things are changing, however slowly it may be, no? The world changes, it is the natural state, and as JM said money is power, and the money situation is changing. Sure, women are paid less for the same jobs, but they are no longer making *no* money, as they often were in my parent's generation. And a woman that decides to leave her husband is not guaranteed to be out on the streets, as she may well have enough of a job to support herself and her kids. Well, maybe not in today's economy...

Sexual dominance among women is even less validated than sexual submission. It raises more eyebrows, gets more uncomfortable reaction, is minimized as a joke in heavy rotation because it is *not supposed to be.* If you laugh about it enough, maybe it will go away. Women are supposed to be accomodating, pleasing, easygoing, conciliatory, and make people comfortable. All the time. I mean look how badly Michelle Obama got it for maybe not doing that perfectly out the gate.

I don't think that it is possible for us to come to agreement here. I don't think either dominance or submission in women is validated or accepted. I don't think either enjoys more acceptance or tolerance than the other by the vanilla masses. Within the kink community, sure. Outside of our little box, no, I don't really think so.

Well, I don't see friendly articles on male dominance like I have recently talking about women doing pro-domme work to help make ends meet in a down economy. Then again, it's a service job, and the client is still in charge, so the power structure is not really challenged.

Maybe because there actually IS an amount of value placed on female vulnerability, powerlessness, and submission across the whole board? Nah.

I guess I'm not subtle enough. I see a helluva a lot of girl power type messages being aimed at my kids. Sure, plenty of "be a sweet girl" crap too, but empowerment is there as well. And the boys are all but constantly emasculated. All the typical fun boy stuff is too dangerous, too scary, not emotionally healthy, etc.

None of the above. You didn't get the same memo. Normalcy and fitting in are generally higher priority among most women, and I wonder how that came to be.

Evolution. The desire to fit in with the pack occurs far before meaningful socialisation on sexual roles.

 

[Netzach]

It's cool. To be honest, it stood out because it is not your style.



Okay, I'm with you. I really am. I'm just trying to figure out why the real world observable shit that I've seen is invalid? We can agree that there is an exception to every rule? Statistically, it is not impossible that my experience is of a collection of exceptions. I'm perfectly fine with saying that.

Not invalid, just micro. Really really micro in a HUGE macro.

Being a white girl with a fat fed educated ass and a computer puts me into a small, micro, slice of the picture when you want to talk about who's moving forward and men vs. women period. To discuss this rationally, I think necessitates a bit of a balloon expedition upward. That's all I'm saying.

I am just of the opinion that it is possible that things are changing, however slowly it may be, no? The world changes, it is the natural state, and as JM said money is power, and the money situation is changing. Sure, women are paid less for the same jobs, but they are no longer making *no* money, as they often were in my parent's generation. And a woman that decides to leave her husband is not guaranteed to be out on the streets, as she may well have enough of a job to support herself and her kids. Well, maybe not in today's economy...

Yes. And the reason for these sea changes are those horrible people who will tell a submissive woman, a dominant woman, a heterosexual woman even, that she's sick in the head.

I'd rather be called sick in the head and educated and fed and relatively safer than not, is all I'm saying. I find the tragedy of a woman being beaten to pulpy death by her psycho husband more tragic than the tragedy of a woman who couldn't persuade social services that she wanted the black eye, as bad as the human results may be. I think one has to be pretty damn privileged to complain about the way DV is handled in this country - if anything UNDER handled. And if you're not a hetero woman forget it, no net for you.

I don't think that it is possible for us to come to agreement here. I don't think either dominance or submission in women is validated or accepted. I don't think either enjoys more acceptance or tolerance than the other by the vanilla masses. Within the kink community, sure. Outside of our little box, no, I don't really think so.

Well, I don't see friendly articles on male dominance like I have recently talking about women doing pro-domme work to help make ends meet in a down economy. Then again, it's a service job, and the client is still in charge, so the power structure is not really challenged.

*cries*

Do I need to hold forth on the diff between paid sex work and actual female sexual Dominance? Doesn't look like it, you seem to get it, however the idea that that kind of article further validates rather than invalidates anything I'm about - scares me, man.

Come on, let's say there's an article on male Dominance that suggests in a down economy you can sell your ass to the highest bidder in assless chaps, twenty bucks a peek, if you work out. Is this validating?

Besides, they've been busting up NYC dungeons like crazy for some reason lately, you'd have to be nuts to go in.

 

[Homburg]

Not invalid, just micro. Really really micro in a HUGE macro.

Being a white girl with a fat fed educated ass and a computer puts me into a small, micro, slice of the picture when you want to talk about who's moving forward and men vs. women period. To discuss this rationally, I think necessitates a bit of a balloon expedition upward. That's all I'm saying.

I, and my educated, well-fed ass, agree.

Yes. And the reason for these sea changes are those horrible people who will tell a submissive woman, a dominant woman, a heterosexual woman even, that she's sick in the head.

I'd rather be called sick in the head and educated and fed and relatively safer than not, is all I'm saying. I find the tragedy of a woman being beaten to pulpy death by her psycho husband more tragic than the tragedy of a woman who couldn't persuade social services that she wanted the black eye, as bad as the human results may be. I think one has to be pretty damn privileged to complain about the way DV is handled in this country - if anything UNDER handled. And if you're not a hetero woman forget it, no net for you.

*nod*

*cries*

Do I need to hold forth on the diff between paid sex work and actual female sexual Dominance? Doesn't look like it, you seem to get it, however the idea that that kind of article further validates rather than invalidates anything I'm about - scares me, man.

I do get it. It's similar only in the prima faciae trappings. That said, it is slowly becoming less marginal. Goering's comments about telling a lie often and loudly also happen to apply to the truth (though it often seems more difficult to get the truth out). The more the media and entertainment mine Fdom for imagery, and wow they are, the more it will wend its' way into the cultural unconscious.

Come on, let's say there's an article on male Dominance that suggests in a down economy you can sell your ass to the highest bidder in assless chaps, twenty bucks a peek, if you work out. Is this validating?

Shit, i'd be happy to see any mainstream article with a male dominant in it that was not the villain. The articles I've seen in mainstream papers involving Mdoms are almost always talking about serial killers, rapists, child abusers, etc.

Besides, they've been busting up NYC dungeons like crazy for some reason lately, you'd have to be nuts to go in.

Of course. It's a down economy. NO FUN FOR YOU!

The guys going into these place have discretionary funds. Those discretionary funds would be better spent paying fines to the city. *headdesk*

 

[rinka]

I love you even more.
Lesbian poly marry me. We'll make a chore chart.

Love you back. And that sounds lovely.

 

[Netzach]

I do get it. It's similar only in the prima faciae trappings. That said, it is slowly becoming less marginal. Goering's comments about telling a lie often and loudly also happen to apply to the truth (though it often seems more difficult to get the truth out). The more the media and entertainment mine Fdom for imagery, and wow they are, the more it will wend its' way into the cultural unconscious.



Shit, i'd be happy to see any mainstream article with a male dominant in it that was not the villain. The articles I've seen in mainstream papers involving Mdoms are almost always talking about serial killers, rapists, child abusers, etc.

I used to think that. That even "Will and Grace" was some kind of queer presence. Fat lot of good that's done for anyone. I don't think I'm being helped any more by the mainstreaming of fetish clothing, which is pretty much what the FDom presence is in the mainstream.

I think it's time to start getting a bit picky and a bit insistent, I think it's time to like ourselves enough to raise the bar a little bit. I don't think you'd be as elated as you say you'd be if the only depiction of male dominant fetish sex was that of a hustler who beats rich businessmen for money. Period. And that everywhere you turn that's all you saw. And that there were a slew of articles on how what you do isn't really sex and a really great way to make a buck.

I'd like to see a Domme who's not a pro and not some projection of an immature wet dream. I say this as someone who has been pro, has nothing per se against pros, but who is tired of seeing pros out the nose everywhere you look when it actually comes to the business of running your non-monetary relationship.

And they're not busting clients. They're busting 21 year old grad students.

 

[YourCaptor]

Look, I'm as sorry for the next person who had an insanely overbearing mother as I am for my own mother - but that doesn't somehow negate 2000 years of patriarchy and then some.

Can we maybe look out the window at the majority of what goes on?

Like this message, conveniently using toys to make sure kids are versed in it, even if the toys are retro. What the flying fuckity fuck?

http://www.mahalo.com/Bridgestone_Potato_Head_Super_Bowl_Ad


Whoop tee do, I'm more likely to be seen as the authority on children. If I had any desire whatsoever to have kids that'd be super. Extra super trying to undo crap like the above.


If I'm lucky I might bend my boss to my whims with a low cut blouse and a softly suggested idea. Because the "male ego is inherently more fragile (what?) " it's MY FAULT if I fail to stroke it sufficiently???


Please sit around at the desk, among the phones and listen to how male lawyers talk about a female lawyer. If you're at the desk and female it's a wonderful position because you do not even exist at that moment and no one cares what you hear.


You have two or three women presumed reasonably intelligent and rational (I'm excluding myself because I'm bordering on neither) in this thread alone saying "yup, that jives with my experience" but because two of you have issues with your moms our experience is somehow invalidated and not "quite right" even though we're the people living every day with a pussy. You're going to tell us how in fact, we have the sexual upper hand in this country, women are encouraged to be sexually dominant, sexual power in women is seen as a good thing simply because you, personally, have a dog in the hunt as to how poorly female sexual submission is seen.

Again, I'm sorry that anyone's sexuality is treated as a dysfunction. But I'm done listening to the only theories that have given women jack shit in the way of anything in this country being the scapegoat. You don't have to look very far to see why female sexuality on its own terms is non-existent.

Everything arbitrary aside, your argument is that you feel that society sees you as being sicker because the female population is not represented in accordance to how you represent yourself?

 

[Homburg]

I used to think that. That even "Will and Grace" was some kind of queer presence. Fat lot of good that's done for anyone. I don't think I'm being helped any more by the mainstreaming of fetish clothing, which is pretty much what the FDom presence is in the mainstream.

Is this some sort of "anything less than 100% acceptance is uncool" thing? I'm not trying to antagonise you by asking that, but it seems to me that Will & Grace on TV, Queer Eye, Orbitz commercials blatantly aimed at homosexual couples, etc is more presence on TV, thus more presence in the eye of Joe Public. You are of an age with me, do you not notice how much more exposure gays are getting these days on TV?

And clothing is bad? Yes, it can be argued that it dilutes the meme, but it also places it more and more in the public eye. There is going to be a normalisation factor just from repeated exposure alone. To talk about the three decades plus that we've mutually been on this planet, things have changed. Along with more gays on TV, we are seeing more nudity, sex, etc. Hell, isn't there are recurring, well-portrayed Fdom supporting character on one of the CSI's?

Again, I'm not trying to say it's all better, but doesn't that count as change? This is an honest question, not me playing Charlie Socrates and asking a leading question to make my point. I'm trying to understand this. I'm seeing a handful of states that are allowing same sex marriage, and California fighting it out still. I'm seeing articles written about kinky sex. I'm seeing pole-dancing classes at the gym. To me, that's (incremental) change, because NONE of that was around when I was a kid.

I think it's time to start getting a bit picky and a bit insistent, I think it's time to like ourselves enough to raise the bar a little bit. I don't think you'd be as elated as you say you'd be if the only depiction of male dominant fetish sex was that of a hustler who beats rich businessmen for money. Period. And that everywhere you turn that's all you saw. And that there were a slew of articles on how what you do isn't really sex and a really great way to make a buck.

I agree vis a vis liking ourselves enough to make a stand, but I dunno. I think I might be happier to see Mdom as hustler than the repeated Mdom as serial killer. Bit of a gulf between those two characters.

I'd like to see a Domme who's not a pro and not some projection of an immature wet dream. I say this as someone who has been pro, has nothing per se against pros, but who is tired of seeing pros out the nose everywhere you look when it actually comes to the business of running your non-monetary relationship.

What is your take on Lady Heather (I looked it up)? I've heard a number of people mention her here and there. MIS has watched those episodes and talked to me about them. Seems like a competent, somewhat sympathetic character. What is your take on her?

And please believe me when I say that I sympathise vis a vis the pro-domme thing. While I would prefer it to Mdom=serial killer, I can understand how it would get fuck-all tiresome.

And they're not busting clients. They're busting 21 year old grad students.

Now that's just stupid. The clients have the money. How can you monetize the justice system if you're busting college students?

 

[Netzach]

Everything arbitrary aside, your argument is that you feel that society sees you as being sicker because the female population is not represented in accordance to how you represent yourself?

Where you are getting this I have no idea. There's a long distance between "I can't possibly be the only one like this, but from the way people are you'd think I am" and "everyone has to be like me."

I'd say that yes, when your existence is conducted in a state of near-invisibility you are more pathologized, more suspect, and more reviled. Otherwise why would your existence have to be pushed to the margins? I'm also saying, yet one more time, that there's a lot more lean toward submissive/bottom bedroom life among otherwise "vanilla" women than dominant. Ask any five women about their fantasies. Ergo - those who tend the other way begin to feel a bit lost when you're sharing confidences and looking to fit with other women. And then we get to listen to submissive women act like we've somehow got it easier, because supposedly society is now really friendly to female power and independence - basically being punished for their internalized discomfort. Which is sucky, but hello - wrong scapegoat.

I didn't get that memo. I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing beer commercials at halftime meant to raise another generation of insane people.

If female power is so dang doggity good, why was every single woman who came up that elevator with any power "a bitch" a "fucking bitch" and "a cunt" in front of a seventeen year old worker?

 

[Netzach]

Is this some sort of "anything less than 100% acceptance is uncool" thing? I'm not trying to antagonise you by asking that, but it seems to me that Will & Grace on TV, Queer Eye, Orbitz commercials blatantly aimed at homosexual couples, etc is more presence on TV, thus more presence in the eye of Joe Public. You are of an age with me, do you not notice how much more exposure gays are getting these days on TV?

And clothing is bad? Yes, it can be argued that it dilutes the meme, but it also places it more and more in the public eye. There is going to be a normalisation factor just from repeated exposure alone. To talk about the three decades plus that we've mutually been on this planet, things have changed. Along with more gays on TV, we are seeing more nudity, sex, etc. Hell, isn't there are recurring, well-portrayed Fdom supporting character on one of the CSI's?

Again, I'm not trying to say it's all better, but doesn't that count as change? This is an honest question, not me playing Charlie Socrates and asking a leading question to make my point. I'm trying to understand this. I'm seeing a handful of states that are allowing same sex marriage, and California fighting it out still. I'm seeing articles written about kinky sex. I'm seeing pole-dancing classes at the gym. To me, that's (incremental) change, because NONE of that was around when I was a kid.

I guess I feel like the glass is half empty.

A woman in my area just had the shit beaten out of her for being a lesbian outside a coffee shop.

Having advertising aimed at me isn't exactly the answer, which is pretty much the bottom line of television. I think in terms of GLBT the relationship the US has to us is pretty much "we still hate you, but we'll take your money, thanks."

I agree vis a vis liking ourselves enough to make a stand, but I dunno. I think I might be happier to see Mdom as hustler than the repeated Mdom as serial killer. Bit of a gulf between those two characters.

Well, sexually powerful woman as serial killer isn't exactly unheard of either, is it?

What is your take on Lady Heather (I looked it up)? I've heard a number of people mention her here and there. MIS has watched those episodes and talked to me about them. Seems like a competent, somewhat sympathetic character. What is your take on her?

I wasn't as excited as a lot of my er, sisteren, were. That I remember. I kind of file her under tragic-non-sexual powerful woman, oddly. I mean we know she's sexual, obviously, but she's never going to consummate anything with Grissom because it's going to call too many questions about his masculinity, his status, his own sexuality. God forbid their relationship actually let off any heat, instead it's got to stay very cool, very sweet.

The things that happen to her just get more and more absurd. You can argue that it's a crime drama, so there must be crime, but it gets a bit silly. Have a daughter if you are a sex worker and clearly, tragedy is going to follow wherever you go.

Now that's just stupid. The clients have the money. How can you monetize the justice system if you're busting college students?

It's not about monetization, obviously, more about fear and control.

 

[Homburg]

I guess I feel like the glass is half empty.

That's reasonable, okay.

A woman in my area just had the shit beaten out of her for being a lesbian outside a coffee shop.

Having advertising aimed at me isn't exactly the answer, which is pretty much the bottom line of television. I think in terms of GLBT the relationship the US has to us is pretty much "we still hate you, but we'll take your money, thanks."

Isn't recognition itself worth something?

Well, sexually powerful woman as serial killer isn't exactly unheard of either, is it?

*shrug* One in six serial killers are female, and they don't tend to operate in the same way men do. Ailleen Wuormos (sp?) aside, they don't tend to get that sensationalised media coverage. There may be Fdom serial killers, but at least you've got examples other than serial killers wandering around in the collective unconscious.

I wasn't as excited as a lot of my er, sisteren, were. That I remember. I kind of file her under tragic-non-sexual powerful woman, oddly. I mean we know she's sexual, obviously, but she's never going to consummate anything with Grissom because it's going to call too many questions about his masculinity, his status, his own sexuality. God forbid their relationship actually let off any heat, instead it's got to stay very cool, very sweet.

The things that happen to her just get more and more absurd. You can argue that it's a crime drama, so there must be crime, but it gets a bit silly. Have a daughter if you are a sex worker and clearly, tragedy is going to follow wherever you go.

I read a wikipedia entry about her after asking the questions. Seems like it started off well, then went weird.

It's not about monetization, obviously, more about fear and control.

Feh, it should be about money.