On the subject of raising children.

[Betticus]

What are your opinions on this subject? This idea has been floating around in my head for quite a while. If you are in possession of the right skills and training methodologies and background, like a dom/me ... would it be wrong to teach your child how to manipulate, influence and control other people for their own benefit?

Not like grifters but more like with the understanding that you only have one life and if you want to be happy and successful that intelligence and hard work will only get you so far and that your skillset has to be well rounded to the point where you have to outcompete others in the social arena. In order to do that you have to be able to play other people, their emotions, logic, their darker sides.

 

[bigbreastsluvr]

What are your opinions on this subject? This idea has been floating around in my head for quite a while. If you are in possession of the right skills and training methodologies and background, like a dom/me ... would it be wrong to teach your child how to manipulate, influence and control other people for their own benefit?

Not like grifters but more like with the understanding that you only have one life and if you want to be happy and successful that intelligence and hard work will only get you so far and that your skillset has to be well rounded to the point where you have to outcompete others in the social arena. In order to do that you have to be able to play other people, their emotions, logic, their darker sides.

YES!!

 

[intothewoods]

Good one, Betticus. Try it with the hamsters first.

 

[Betticus]

Good one, Betticus. Try it with the hamsters first.

It's just a topic for discussion, I'll never have children.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I tend to mostly agree with Mark Twain on the subject. He said when children turn thirteen, they should be put in a barrel and fed through a hole in the side. When they turn sixteen, the hole should be plugged. He was an optimist, to my opinion, on the entry date. I think they should be put in the barrel as soon as they begin to say "No" to everything they're told.

 

[satindesire]

It wasn't that long ago that I was still being raised by my parents and I remember a lot of how they raised me quite clearly.

They were strict, but fair. They never punished me too harshly or let me get away with something when I needed to be punished.

They never set rules for me that I didn't understand. They always explained their rules and told me why when they would say no to a request of mine.

I was consistently treated like and spoken to as if I were an adult capable of understanding them from the time I was very young. I believe that they showed me a high level of respect for my self awareness and responsibility, and it made me want to constantly prove that I was worth that respect.

I rarely broke the rules, rarely had to be punished and NEVER talked back to my parents. I followed their rules because I understood them, I knew that the rules they placed in front of me were for my protection and well being.

I intend to raise my children in the same manner, because I believe that my parents awesome parenting skills made me a better person, matured me faster and taught me the value of hard work, dedication and responsibility.

All in all, I was a DAMN lucky kid. I don't know what I did in my past life to deserve awesome parents, but I hope I do it again this life too!

 

[rinka]

My basic position is that children are naturally cooperative and do their best to interact positively. Right from the start babies are completely tuned in to their parents or other caregivers, communicating and adapting.

Unfortunately we fuck them up. We send mixed signals, set bad examples and don't take full responsibility for the communication and climate we provide. And we fail to respect our childrens integrity.

I choose to try to nurture that instinct to cooperate. May not foster the most competetive aggressive person. And I know it's a hard world to grow up in. But hopefully social skills like open communication, the ability to cooperate with others, listening and respect represent other tools to achieve happiness and self-fulfillment.

I don't punish, I don't threaten or bribe. I don't give chores, I ask for help and say that we should share. I try to set an example by drawing personal limits rather than make my preferences sound like general rules. (E.g "I want this" instead of "it's not allowed to....")

I try to say yes much more than I say no.

 

[Betticus]

I get the feeling that society encourages us to or you to raise kids in a way that conditions them to be .. sheep.

 

[Homburg]

Children learn by example, so, honestly, you may not have a choice as to whether or not you teach them these skills if you display them yourself. As is, I know I have gotten a bit exasperated at Eldest Daughter's ham-fisted social dominance and given her advice on how to do it better. She ate it up too. Kinda scary, actually.

That kid is strong-willed.

 

[Netzach]

Age appropriately, I'd say yes, a lesson in how to navigate social BS is a good lesson.

However, this may be lost on kids for whom it's lost. Some people aren't particularly coordinated enough to play badminton, either.

But things like "you'll catch more flies with honey" aren't necessarily creating rampant sociopaths and are useful tidbits.

Anyone who thinks they're not "manipulating controlling and influencing" other people toward their own agenda every time you open your mouth to communicate isn't looking at this very realistically. There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial situations and the only way to reach them is by sticking to your own agenda while looking rationally on the agendas of others, seeing how the pieces fit.

If anything, yes, I'd say most people are raising people in such a way that they're satisfied being taken advantage of and refuse to consider more than two options in any given problem.

 

[Betticus]

Children learn by example, so, honestly, you may not have a choice as to whether or not you teach them these skills if you display them yourself. As is, I know I have gotten a bit exasperated at Eldest Daughter's ham-fisted social dominance and given her advice on how to do it better. She ate it up too. Kinda scary, actually.

That kid is strong-willed.

I got into a two hour long debate with a guy at work the other night about how his inability to employ forethought and finesse along with social skill only pissed off everyone he was trying to work with. Then I also pointed out how he relished setting things up so that when people would refuse to work with him he could play a martyr or victim role giving him flimsy reason to justify his position.

He tries to ram his thoughts and opinions down peoples throats and when they react defensively he whines about how everyone is out to get him.

Of course, I was reading something when he interrupted me. It was obvious that he wanted attention so I gave it to him, much to his chagrin.

 

[Betticus]

Age appropriately, I'd say yes, a lesson in how to navigate social BS is a good lesson.

However, this may be lost on kids for whom it's lost. Some people aren't particularly coordinated enough to play badminton, either.

But things like "you'll catch more flies with honey" aren't necessarily creating rampant sociopaths and are useful tidbits.

I wonder how the social elite and mega rich raise their kids... what are they learning in those private schools? Those ivy league institutions?

 

[Netzach]

I wonder how the social elite and mega rich raise their kids... what are they learning in those private schools? Those ivy league institutions?

Nothing that interesting, a lot of them are very messed up and barely functional, they just have cash to cover the problem better.

 

[Homburg]

I wonder how the social elite and mega rich raise their kids... what are they learning in those private schools? Those ivy league institutions?

I read a really interesting article about that. The article compared school in lower-class areas, schools in middle-class areas, and schools in upper-class areas (as well as prep schools and the like). Lower-class kids were taught to be compacent consumer drones, middle-class kids were taught to be thinkers and doers, and upper-class kids were taught how to run it all. The article was from the 70's or 80's and coupld afford to be non-politically correct, and thus honest.

It was a bit of a scary piece, really, even though it explained that the differences were intentional or even systemic. It was more the type of information and education the students within those brackets responded to, plus the sort of educators hired by those schools. So the article was not trying to establish some conspiracy theory, just to point out the base conceptual difference in style of education between the major social strata.

Damned if I can remember the name of the piece, but it was cited in another article I read, so I looked it up. My apologies for unsupported anecdotal commentary like this. If I can find the article, I'll link to it.

 

[Netzach]

My data is based on being educated alongside members of this class, whose problems I would not necessarily have traded for. You have dysfunction, bad parenting, and simply more cash and more access in that realm.

 

[midwestyankee]

I get the feeling that society encourages us to or you to raise kids in a way that conditions them to be .. sheep.

Actually, without a certain amount of highly systematic conformity virtually nothing - and I mean nothing - would ever get done.

Another word for this is language. If you choose to be a loner and invent your own language, you're stuck talking to yourself and will have no way of interacting with or benefiting from the rest of society. Enjoy your cave, Remus.

 

[HarlotMinx]

What are your opinions on this subject?

Eat them while they're still tender, they spoil with age.

I've always been a fan of my mother's methods. She treated me like an adult at all times and never shielded me from my own choice. I distinctly remember climbing a tree when I was young and my mother encouraging me on where a lot of mothers would be yelling at their child. When I fell and came running to her crying, she bandaged me up, comforted me but her response was "Well don't do that again, it hurts." Seemed callous at the time but looking back it's a big reason I'm capable of accepting that all actions have definite consequences.

 

[satindesire]

I get the feeling that society encourages us to or you to raise kids in a way that conditions them to be .. sheep.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

Are you saying that any level of conformity is bad?

Or are you saying that parents as a whole are lacking in teaching their children the values and morals that will allow them to prosper as individuals these days?

Or perhaps you mean that being raised in a household with certain values, such as a Jewish household or a Wiccan household is a bad idea, that a child's mind should never be impressed with any sorts of outside influences until they're older, grown and out of the house?

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[FurryFury]

The following is IMO, only and may not be right for all.

Yes, I think raising your children to question authority and manipulate others, is fine. This is true as long as they are old enough to get the concept that you don't treat people unfairly and without compassion.

Providing a strong but somewhat flexible framework throughout their childhood is key.

Not shielding them from making and/or dealing with the consequences of their mistakes is also key.

My kids are conscious and kind but they are also strong individuals that don't buy into things just because, "everyone else" is doing it. They question authority and believe systems but they are ass holes about it as so many are. LOL.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't think you can entirely mold a child into what you want it to be without it backfiring. I'm definitely not in the child-centered let them make all of their own choices crowd, but let's just say that child-rearing isn't exactly an experiment by which you can control all of the variables. That's why the idea of, hey let's turn this one into the next captain of industry, made me laugh.

 

[rinka]

I get the feeling that society encourages us to or you to raise kids in a way that conditions them to be .. sheep.

Demanding obedience and installing shame definitely fosters sheep. Hopefully we're moving away from that.

Age appropriately, I'd say yes, a lesson in how to navigate social BS is a good lesson.

However, this may be lost on kids for whom it's lost. Some people aren't particularly coordinated enough to play badminton, either.

But things like "you'll catch more flies with honey" aren't necessarily creating rampant sociopaths and are useful tidbits.

Anyone who thinks they're not "manipulating controlling and influencing" other people toward their own agenda every time you open your mouth to communicate isn't looking at this very realistically. There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial situations and the only way to reach them is by sticking to your own agenda while looking rationally on the agendas of others, seeing how the pieces fit.

If anything, yes, I'd say most people are raising people in such a way that they're satisfied being taken advantage of and refuse to consider more than two options in any given problem.

I realize I sound naive and all "peace love and understanding" but I see a clear difference between manipulating and influencing.

IMO sticking to your own agenda is rarely the most creative way to solve conflicts in interests. To open up more than two different solutions to problems it's often necessary to let others in and not be too focused on proving you're right.

To me cooperation does not equal compliance. It involves being able to express your needs and wants while still considering other people. Mutual respect. Manipulation doesn't include much respect.

And when I talk about respect I sure don't mean to not question authority. I take my kid to several demonstrations every year to ensure his democratic education and encourage civil disobedience if necessary.

 

[Harmony_1985]

Children learn by example, so, honestly, you may not have a choice as to whether or not you teach them these skills if you display them yourself. As is, I know I have gotten a bit exasperated at Eldest Daughter's ham-fisted social dominance and given her advice on how to do it better. She ate it up too. Kinda scary, actually.

That kid is strong-willed.

There are that many damned child development theories on how children learn its unreal. Piaget, Bruner et al have alot to answer for, but Hommy has a point; children DO learn by example, especially from the primary caregiver.

They see you doing it, they think its okay for them to do it.

I wonder how the social elite and mega rich raise their kids... what are they learning in those private schools? Those ivy league institutions?

They don't raise their kids; they pay someone else to do it.

I don't think you can entirely mold a child into what you want it to be without it backfiring. I'm definitely not in the child-centered let them make all of their own choices crowd, but let's just say that child-rearing isn't exactly an experiment by which you can control all of the variables. That's why the idea of, hey let's turn this one into the next captain of industry, made me laugh.

The child-centered approach works TO AN EXTENT but in others, it just fails miserably. The nursery I worked at til xmas ran off a child centered approach, which is all well and good but the children in that nursery had no respect for the nursery property or for each other's property.

All it did was instill in them that they coul do what the heck they wanted.

 

[Keroin]

What are your opinions on this subject? This idea has been floating around in my head for quite a while. If you are in possession of the right skills and training methodologies and background, like a dom/me ... would it be wrong to teach your child how to manipulate, influence and control other people for their own benefit?

The question that immediately came to mind when I first read this was, "If a dom/me is wired up to teach their children about influence and control, then what are people like me, (those of the lower case letter class), best suited to pass on to their progeny? To follow orders? To appreciate the subtle joys of surrender?" Hm.

Not that I will ever have kids. (Diapers? Why? Joking, only joking). Just curious.

While I agree with the ideas espoused by FF, satindesire, and rinka, I also think it's a crapshoot. My parents used the "Because I said so..." philosophy of child rearing and did pretty much everything wrong. I think I turned out OK.

(BTW, Betticus, your avatar makes my eyes glaze over. If it's not you in the photo, don't tell me, don't spoil the fantasy. I'm not usually prone to visually-induced daydreams but I have so few diversions here.)

 

[intothewoods]

The child-centered approach works TO AN EXTENT but in others, it just fails miserably. The nursery I worked at til xmas ran off a child centered approach, which is all well and good but the children in that nursery had no respect for the nursery property or for each other's property.

All it did was instill in them that they coul do what the heck they wanted.

Yes, lots of people have forgotten balance and common-sense when it comes to kids. I mean, seriously, I have heard new mothers lecture on and on about the importance of giving children choices. Ok, yesss, but Jesus, I don't have to give him a choice about every damn thing under the sun. If I did that I would never get out of the house on time.

 

[Homburg]

Actually, without a certain amount of highly systematic conformity virtually nothing - and I mean nothing - would ever get done.

Another word for this is language. If you choose to be a loner and invent your own language, you're stuck talking to yourself and will have no way of interacting with or benefiting from the rest of society. Enjoy your cave, Remus.

Eh. Advancement, be it cultural, social, scientific, philosophical or what have you, happens because of non-conformists. While I agree that a mass of sheep are very much necessary to the functioning of the herd, the herd needs rams.