Is there anybody who thought this wouldn't happen?

[Boxlicker101]

Is there anybody here, or anywhere else, who didn't expect this to happen as soon as Hamas got themselves together again?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090201/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

 

[CharleyH]

Is there anybody here, or anywhere else, who didn't expect this to happen as soon as Hamas got themselves together again?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090201/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

I've never understood pissing territory. I'm not a dog.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Damn! I guess Israel just didn't kill enough of them.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Damn! I guess Israel just didn't kill enough of them.

It certainly looks that way. Maybe they could have gone on a house to house search for rockets or other weapons, or for evidence thaqt rockets had been fired from them. I do think they left too soon. I doubt that Gazans are really happy about Hamas turning their homes and schools and mosques into battlegrounds, and perhaps they would have ratted out the perps, it they could have been reasonably sure of their own safety.

I know you are being sarcastic, but I think you're right.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I've never understood pissing territory. I'm not a dog.

What pissing territory? The Israelis are not after territorial expansion; they just want to stop bad people from shooting at them. I doubt that there are any people n the world who wouldn't have reacted in a similar way if somebody started firing rockets at them.

 

[rgraham666]

And then, there's the other side of the coin.

Edited to remove a factual error. I thought this article I read referred to some Israelis who think their country is after territorial expansion. Another article referred to those Israelis.

 

[R. Richard]

Interesting site, with pictures.

http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/HumanShields.html

 

[redpaint]

There are those in Gaza that would like to have peace. But as long as Hamas has control of Gaza that is never going to happen. Israel, Whither you wish to believe it or not has been left with no choice but to defined itself from these kind of attacks.

Personal I think its time that this crap stop. they have rasied several generations of children to learn nothing but hate and to continue this sinless vilolence.

 

[cloudy]

There are those in Gaza that would like to have peace. But as long as Hamas has control of Gaza that is never going to happen. Israel, Whither you wish to believe it or not has been left with no choice but to defined itself from these kind of attacks.

Personal I think its time that this crap stop. they have rasied several generations of children to learn nothing but hate and to continue this sinless vilolence.

Yeah, poor, defenseless Israel. They're so picked on that the UN is investigating them for war crimes.

 

[Liar]

Is there anybody here, or anywhere else, who didn't expect this to happen as soon as Hamas got themselves together again?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090201/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

So, basically, Israel led an agressive offensive into a heavily populated area, causing major civilian casualities, humanitarian suffering, and in the end it amounted to absolutely nothing. Zip. Ze Bad Guys are still there, doing their thing.

Yep, that about sums it up. Pretty much what I said would happen all along.

I've said it before and I say it again: You can't fight fanatism with force. You defeat extremists like Hamas, not by making them bleed, but by making them irrelevant. That's the ONLY thing that has ANY chance of actually succeeding. But that takes a whole lot of patience, which doesn't rhyme with the internal Israeli power struggle.

It's evident that stopping the rocket fire was never the actual goal with the war. Because a fucking toddler could have figured out that a goal like that had a snowball-in-hell chance to work.

 

[DeeZire]

Heard an interesting news piece the other day, talking about how some Palestinians are forced to wait for the Israeli occupiers to open the gates to they can gain access to their own fields for farming. It brings to mind the idea that some things are worth fighting for, like freedom, for example.

I really think presenting one side of the story while ignoring the other is disingenuous at best, and ignorant at worst. The Palestinians are basically living inside a compound with access controlled by Israel. If I lived in a situation like that, I'd be a little pissed off by now, and I'm a freakin' liberal pussy, for cryin' out loud.

The question is, how do you stop the cycle of violence? Shooting rockets is not the answer, but neither is killing thousands of civilians.

 

[DesertPirate]

We don't stop anything, they do. The sad thing is that niether side cares what we think, never has, never will. Some people think Israel is wrong to defend themselves but can't accout for the fact that 9 million Jews have kicked the crap out of 70 million+ Arabs every time they had a war in the last 50 years. If Israel loses once it will make Rwanda seem tame.

 

[Boxlicker101]

So, basically, Israel led an agressive offensive into a heavily populated area, causing major civilian casualities, humanitarian suffering, and in the end it amounted to absolutely nothing. Zip. Ze Bad Guys are still there, doing their thing.

Yep, that about sums it up. Pretty much what I said would happen all along.

I've said it before and I say it again: You can't fight fanatism with force. You defeat extremists like Hamas, not by making them bleed, but by making them irrelevant. That's the ONLY thing that has ANY chance of actually succeeding. But that takes a whole lot of patience, which doesn't rhyme with the internal Israeli power struggle.

It's evident that stopping the rocket fire was never the actual goal with the war. Because a fucking toddler could have figured out that a goal like that had a snowball-in-hell chance to work.

No. Israel launched an attack against a militarized area, from which rockets and other weapons had been fired at their cities, and which also had a large civilian population. Militarizing a civilian area is contrary to the Geneva Convention, but never mind that, eh?

How do you propose making Hamas irrelevant? They were elected, you know.

 

[R. Richard]

How do you propose making Hamas irrelevant? They were elected, you know.

Fairly simple. Israel only needs to require Hamas to develop a detailed economic development plan for Gaza, including money in and money out, or no more humanitarian aid. The rockets that come out of Gaza aint cheap. If the people in Gaza have money for rockets, they obviously don't need humanitarian aid. Accountants always win in the end.

 

[Liar]

No. Israel launched an attack against a militarized area, from which rockets and other weapons had been fired at their cities, and which also had a large civilian population. Militarizing a civilian area is contrary to the Geneva Convention, but never mind that, eh?

What the hell do you mean "never mind that"? Are you implying that I don't mind that? Please quote where I have been supportive or apologetic towards Hamas' reprehensible tactics.

And what do you mean "no"? What was factually untrue about what I said? Irael attacked a heavily populated area with the stated objective to stop the rocket fire. Lots of civilians were victims. The rocket fire still goes on. Which part of that are you refuting?

How do you propose making Hamas irrelevant? They were elected, you know.

Long term. Hamas' only message is hatred towards Israel. Massive and consistent outreach to the Palestinian people from Israel, in the form of aid, inclusion in society, commerce, education, human rights, mutual respect... over long term, we're talknig years, maybe decades, to undo the animosity that fuels fantism. That could lead to that when Hamas or Hezbollah or someone else yells "Death to Israel!", a growing number of Palestinians will answer "Uh, why?" Hearts and minds and all that jazz. It's not easy, and it won't happen overnight. And since it won't happen til the next Israeli election cycle, it'll never happen.

 

[Liar]

Fairly simple. Israel only needs to require Hamas to develop a detailed economic development plan for Gaza, including money in and money out, or no more humanitarian aid. The rockets that come out of Gaza aint cheap. If the people in Gaza have money for rockets, they obviously don't need humanitarian aid. Accountants always win in the end.

Not a bad idea. The plague of a dysfunctional society is generally either the lack of buerocracy, or too much buerocracy. Gaza is a clear example of the former. Send in the Excel warriors.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
No. Israel launched an attack against a militarized area, from which rockets and other weapons had been fired at their cities, and which also had a large civilian population. Militarizing a civilian area is contrary to the Geneva Convention, but never mind that, eh?

What the hell do you mean "never mind that"? Are you implying that I don't mind that? Please quote where I have been supportive or apologetic towards Hamas' reprehensible tactics.

What I mean is that so many people, on this thread and other places, seem to accept the evil deeds of Hamas or Hezbollah or, at least, say nothing negative about them, and just condemn the Israeli response to it. How about you? Until this post, have ou ever said anything negative about the tactics of the H's? Have you ever before referred to them as "reprehensible?"

And what do you mean "no"? What was factually untrue about what I said? Irael attacked a heavily populated area with the stated objective to stop the rocket fire. Lots of civilians were victims. The rocket fire still goes on. Which part of that are you refuting?

Technically, you are correct. However, Israseli did not, one day say something like: "Let's go kill a bunch of Muslim civilians." What they said was more like: These rockets are not very effective, but they are demoralizing, and we can't put up with them any more. Let's go take them out, and if some of the civilians who elected Hamas and have been permitting it are also hurt, so be it."

If the citizens of Tiajuana starterd shooting across the border at the people in San Diego, would the US government ignore it? If people in the Republic of Ireland started shooting at the people in Ulster, would the government of UK ignore it? If the people in North Korea started shooting at the people in South Korea, would you expect the South Koreans to ignore it? No and no and no. Why then should anybody expect the Israelis to ignore the same kind of thing?

Long term. Hamas' only message is hatred towards Israel. Massive and consistent outreach to the Palestinian people from Israel, in the form of aid, inclusion in society, commerce, education, human rights, mutual respect... over long term, we're talknig years, maybe decades, to undo the animosity that fuels fantism. That could lead to that when Hamas or Hezbollah or someone else yells "Death to Israel!", a growing number of Palestinians will answer "Uh, why?" Hearts and minds and all that jazz. It's not easy, and it won't happen overnight. And since it won't happen til the next Israeli election cycle, it'll never happen.

The Muslims are the ones preaching hatred. There are thousands of Muslims living in Israel, and they have few if any problems. The Jews accept others; Hamas and Hez. do not. If the citizens of Gaza really wanted to stop the attacks against Israel, they could do it. At some risk, but probably no more than they are subjected to now.

Israel has been extending olive branches for decades. They provide aid of all kinds to the Palestines. There are many Palestinians in Israeli hospitals. Palestinians who live in Israel are accepted and there are even some in the legislature. All the Israelis want is to live in peace, but the Palestinians elect leaders who have sworn to kil all Jews.

 

[GratefulFred]

As for Liar's asking why we didn't finish Hamas off and end the rocket fire and rescue our captive soldier, that gets answered in a week as all polls are showing a Kadima/Labour party loss. Likud/Israel Beitanu and the religious move into power and they won't mess around.

As for education our children are not brought up with hatred for the Arabs and do need to take Arabic and learn islamic history. The curriculum is similar to America but a bit less disciplined in the classrooms.

Anyone who sees both palestinian children's textbooks, sees their TV programing wittnesses hate and death thrown upon us.

Hamas, won the election because of the fact that they were less corrupt than the Fatah party and really the differences between the groups is negligible. Naturally they also used intense violence killing and torturing Fatah members to rise to power and keep their strangle hold. One basic important difference is Hamas openly says they do not wish for us to exist not do they care about having a state in Gaza.

When we say we are going to use "disproportionate force". Hamas thinks about photo ops to help distabilize Egypt and Jordan. Egypt doesn't want to have them under their wing, as they did from 1948-1967. How the palestinians keep having babies without working and building an economy has to deal with the UNWRA and the prepetual welfare payments that they receive. They've learned to live on less and so long as the UNWRA keeps paying, why work? As for their discomfort, until they release our kidnapped soldier they don't deserve any of life's amenities. They can suffer so long as we suffer for our Gilad.

Hamas and Hezbollah are funded from Iran. Our issues with these groups are nothing compared to Iran that will nuke us given the capability. If they get C-300s installed we will not have to wait to see a nuclear explosion. Hamas fires as a diversion so that no one is talking about Iran.

So with all this doom and gloom about us fighting a truely evil run group - what's the solution? Well we need to occupy Gaza as we did before with our military precense. Our salvation for peace runs in conjunction with the world's environmental problems. Only when the world runs more on alternative energy sources and our one-commodity beligerent neighbors are forced back into the nomadic tribes from wence they came as will happen when the revenue source of terrorism dry out. So long as the west kisses cheeks with these Arab oil countries we'll never catch a break. Once they have nothing the west needs, life will be better for us.

Than maybe instead of ripping apart a productive farm system as we left in Gaza, the people will beg for our help, and we'll be glad to help them and let us all live in peace. We don't need their land. We just want our little patch representing a 1% of the middle east.

Maybe we got 20 years to go.

For the record Jordan wouldn't want to take control of the West Bank since 60% of Jordanians consider themselves Palestinians and they've already had to deal with a revolt of the Palestinians back in the 70s that they wish not to repeat.