Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

[JackLuis]

With all the angst about "The Criminal Bush Administration," and the new administration, here is a reasonable solution.


http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/lindorff/191

"That said, I would argue that there can be a good case made, both legally and politically, for the convening of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission, which could put all key people in the last administration on the stand and under oath and klieg lights to explain just what they did and why.
"

Sounds good to me and I generally am of the opinion that they ought to be....

I'll mind my manners.

 

[trysail]

"Elie Wiesel, writer, survivor of Auschwitz and Nobel Peace Prize winner, came to see [ Condoleeza ] Rice on February 27 [ 2003 ] and the president dropped by her office. Rice moved to the couch so the president could take the chair closest to Wiesel.

Wiesel told the president that Iraq was a terrorist state and that the moral imperative was for intervention. If the West had intervened in Europe in 1938, he said, World War II and the Holocaust could have been prevented. 'It's a moral issue. In the name of morality how can we not intervene?...'

... In the face of such evils, neutrality is impossible, Wiesel said."


-Bob Woodward
Plan of Attack
New York, New York 2004.

 

[trysail]

by Jacki Lyden
All Things Considered, January 25, 2009 · I met the Hanoudi family when I was a war correspondent in Iraq in 2003. Dr. Najeeb Hanoudi was a practicing ophthalmologist in Baghdad and he supported the American invasion and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein...

 

[JackLuis]

by Jacki Lyden
All Things Considered, January 25, 2009 · I met the Hanoudi family when I was a war correspondent in Iraq in 2003. Dr. Najeeb Hanoudi was a practicing ophthalmologist in Baghdad and he supported the American invasion and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein...

It is not the intentions of an act that are the issue but the results.
Iraq is far worse off now and the government is not going to be our friend after we leave. Will Iraq become a threat to Isreal and end up supporting the Shaia and Hezbola?
Witht he Sunnies in charge there was far less lunaicy and 100,000 lives needn't have been lost.
Results count!

Didn't you learn that while researching the history of the Western World, lo these many years?

 

[Liar]

It is not the intentions of an act that are the issue but the results.

Or rather, it's not intentions, or even the results, but the way it was carried out, that has the critics up in arms.

Habeus corpus, the Geneva Conventions,, the Bill or Rights, and all that jazz.

 

[JackLuis]

Or rather, it's not intentions, or even the results, but the way it was carried out, that has the critics up in arms.

Habeus corpus, the Geneva Conventions,, the Bill or Rights, and all that jazz.

All the above mentioned are the results of Hubris. I'd like to hear Cheany on the stand to see just how the Neo-Con con was supposed to go.

Rummy is , well rummy and I'll bet he drank the Kool-aid early.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JACKLUIS

Dont get your hopes up. You have no idea what goes on in Washington, out of sight. It's a do-gooder wet dream to think that the players will ever exhibit their real wares...and real loyalties.

 

[rgraham666]

All the above mentioned are the results of Hubris. I'd like to hear Cheany on the stand to see just how the Neo-Con con was supposed to go.

Rummy is , well rummy and I'll bet he drank the Kool-aid early.

It was supposed to be the start of the new Pax Americana.

Abroad it was to be a new round of "Let them hate so long as they fear."

At home it was supposed to be the installation of an Imperial dynasty where the plebians worshipped their gods as personified by the Imperial Court. They were to be distracted from their disenfranchisement by bread and circuses. The roads would be lined by the rebels who had been crucified as yet another reminder that the powerful were not to be fucked with.

You'll never get the neo-cons or their supporters to show up at a 'Truth and Reconciliation Commision' because they'll never admit to doing evil. Or even wrong.

 

[DesertPirate]

Of course the George Soros funded secular progressives (Franken, Moveon, Huffington...) will never admit to trying to destroy the country either. But they are.

 

[Pure]

my theory

for which there is some evidence.**

the vision was to remake the middle east. iraq would be the first key 'democracy.' the middle east would come to resemble Latin America, i.e. under US 'protection'.

the core objective being not 'democracy' but dominance of US business interests, e.g. in oil.
===

i kinda like the 'truth and reconciliation' idea, since the real malefactors are NOT going to prision; it will just end up the lower level supervisors at abu ghraib, etc.

i'm still kinda surprised that Scooter didn't get his pardon, and that GWB didn't do for Gonzales what Ford did, iirc. a kind of 'pre emptive' pardon. i suppose the spotlight was just too intense. AND maybe, just mabye GWB's famous reluctance to pardon kicked in at the RIGHT time. some part of him just says (in his mind): if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
---

**
the evidence is the talk, in the 'new american century,' and other places, of iraq serving as a kind of 'seed' or ember of democracy, and the neighboring countries like syria and even iran weakening or toppling their dictatorships. bush's rhetoric about 'spreading democracy' reflects a traditional formulation of american foreign policy, which hates to say, candidly, "OUR dictator, not yours."

needless to say, except for pre existing democracies like france, etc, after WWII, the US has never, with the possible exception of Japan, set up (established), or helped in a major way to set up, a democracy anywere. the outcomes for 'democracy' are just too unpredictable: look at gaza, for example: they end with hamas. look at cuba in the 50s, and, more recently, venezuela and bolivia.

 

[Pure]

nice posting

"Elie Wiesel, writer, survivor of Auschwitz and Nobel Peace Prize winner, came to see [ Condoleeza ] Rice on February 27 [ 2003 ] and the president dropped by her office. Rice moved to the couch so the president could take the chair closest to Wiesel.

Wiesel told the president that Iraq was a terrorist state and that the moral imperative was for intervention. If the West had intervened in Europe in 1938, he said, World War II and the Holocaust could have been prevented. 'It's a moral issue. In the name of morality how can we not intervene?...'

... In the face of such evils, neutrality is impossible, Wiesel said."

-Bob Woodward
Plan of Attack
New York, New York 2004.

===

i think if you read between the lines, here, and hear the holocaust analogy, the implication is somewhat different that what one first thinks. wiesel as NOT, after all, talking about any one of a number of mass slaughters, e.g. in darfur; iow, cases where pure humanitarianism is an issue. he is talking about the survival of israel.

he was engaging in 'realpolitik', NOT seeking to inspire humanitarian and philanthropic efforts.


the 'taking out' of saddam's irag was a key component of ensuring israel's survival and strength, according to the israeli right wing. ironically of course, the new iraqi regime will lean toward Iran (to put it mildly)--- israel's other most implacable enemy, and one far more powerful than iraq or syria.

 

[trysail]

I find it amusing in the extreme that the various "world savers" and "hand wringers" in this joint— those who wanted the U.S. to intervene in the Balkans, those who wanted the U.S. to save Darfur, those who want the U.S. to free Tibet and on and on and on ad infinitum— are the very first to condemn U.S. actions and start pointing the finger of blame whenever anything in the world goes wrong.

You're the same folk who want to save the planet from that deadly poison gas CO2, boiling oceans and god-only-knows-what-else and who will be the first and loudest to complain when you can't afford your utility bills or the lights go out.

 

[JackLuis]

I find it amusing that the "more conservitive" members of our little community are all concerned about America and yet they do not adhear to the principles of our Constitution.

They talk about the "Rights of Man" but then support the surpression of such rights, if the conversation vears off in to the rights of "rag headed zealots."

They support the rights of American companies to "OWN" the water in Bolivia and then complain when the Bolivians take back thier own water. Yes I know that the American companies would do a better job of distributing the water, but it should be done by the indiginous people. That is the way they learn to run thier own country.

The same with Viet Nam, after the war and all the consolidation was completed the VN'ese came to a compromise and seem to be doing a good job feeding and educating thier people thier own way. Who are we to complain?

Iraq is a similar issue. It is their Country and their oil. Let them figure it out. We need to figure out how to develop new alternitive sources of energy that don't put us in the position of being dependant on foriegn sources.

Still I think a Recconciliation Commission would be good to let the people know just how vile and repulsive the former administration was and perhaps prevent the distortion of our ideals for commercial greed.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I find it amusing in the extreme that the various "world savers" and "hand wringers" in this joint— those who wanted the U.S. to intervene in the Balkans, those who wanted the U.S. to save Darfur, those who want the U.S. to free Tibet and on and on and on ad infinitum— are the very first to condemn U.S. actions and start pointing the finger of blame whenever anything in the world goes wrong.

You're the same folk who want to save the planet from that deadly poison gas CO2, boiling oceans and god-only-knows-what-else and who will be the first and loudest to complain when you can't afford your utility bills or the lights go out.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

You often make stupid posts-- this one is an incredibly stupid post.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

As an old soldier, would it be too much to ask the government not to send in the kids for reasons other than direct threat to the nation?

It ain't gonna happen with all the fat cats of every sort protecting their personal interests, but if the Bush twins, Chelsea Clinton and Cheney's daughter were in the military because of a universal draft, the various Administrations would have been a lot more circumspect about "sending in the Marines" methinks.

 

[JackLuis]

As an old soldier, would it be too much to ask the government not to send in the kids for reasons other than direct threat to the nation?

It ain't gonna happen with all the fat cats of every sort protecting their personal interests, but if the Bush twins, Chelsea Clinton and Cheney's daughter were in the military because of a universal draft, the various Administrations would have been a lot more circumspect about "sending in the Marines" methinks.

Can we have an "Amen" to that?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JACKLUIS

Ignorant shit! The only people doing well in Vietnam work for the government. The rest of them sleep in refrigerator boxes amd eat rice beetles.

 

[JackLuis]

JACKLUIS

Ignorant shit! The only people doing well in Vietnam work for the government. The rest of them sleep in refrigerator boxes amd eat rice beetles.

At least they aren't dodging the napalm and watching their rice fields dieing from Agent Orange.

I flew over the Plain of Jars in ~1978 and we saw entire areas of red earth eroding as the native grasses were almost killed. There were no trees to be seen, Bomb craters filled with scummy pestulence. Of course it was only about 100-150 sq miles of Laos.

I felt the same way in 1966 when I came back from Viet Nam as I do now. Let the Viet Namese figure it out. Thier "Communisim" is tempered with enterprise now, like China's. The truth will prevail and it will be without 2 million VN, and 55,000 more American lives. It is so much cheaper to let the natural evolution of Cultures progress. Try it , you'll like it.

Same with Iraq. In the long run they are going to have to figure it out for themselves. We had a great chance in the lull after the liberation but Rummy blew it because he didn't want to make the investment of reconstruction.

The dumb shit had even let the Counter insergance manual fade away and the Army had no institutional knowledge of counterinsergancy! Thank GOD the it only took three years for Gen Patreus to get promoted to do what he had done for Mosel when he was CG of the 101st in Mosal after the the defeat.

So there were three years of "Rambo reconsiliation" and and no plan.

I credit Gen. Patreus for not saying what he knew to be true. Don Rumesfeld was a throw back to the pre 1960 cold warrior, with out communists to occupie him.

But , In the words of our President, "This is time to look forward and back at the past."

I look forward to seeing W & Dick explaining to their God that "it was all Intell's fault." The sooner they explain to him, the happerier I'll be.

 

[DeeZire]

Of course the George Soros funded secular progressives (Franken, Moveon, Huffington...) will never admit to trying to destroy the country either. But they are.

Dude! You need to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh. He's turning your brain to mush!

I concur with the idea that a truth commission wouldn't fly with the neo-cons. They have no concept of what the truth is, as the above quote illustrates.

 

[cloudy]

Dude! You need to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh. He's turning your brain to mush!

I concur with the idea that a truth commission wouldn't fly with the neo-cons. They have no concept of what the truth is, as the above quote illustrates.

Yeah, that's our secret mission: to destroy the country. You caught us.



DP: got news for you, hun...this is not, and has never been a "Christian nation." Deal.

 

[rgraham666]

The Smoke Machine.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JACKLUIS

I spent 68-69 in Vietnam with the 315th Air Commando/Special Ops Wing. We're the guys who sprayed Agent Orange. Once or twice we filled the planes with liquid shit, but spraying gooks with shit is like dumping water on the ocean.

I cant imagine Vietnam improved by anything. From the start, their culture has been dominated by one group and then another.

 

[Boxlicker101]

As an old soldier, would it be too much to ask the government not to send in the kids for reasons other than direct threat to the nation?

It ain't gonna happen with all the fat cats of every sort protecting their personal interests, but if the Bush twins, Chelsea Clinton and Cheney's daughter were in the military because of a universal draft, the various Administrations would have been a lot more circumspect about "sending in the Marines" methinks.

Sometimes the threat doesn't need to be all that direct. WW1 would be a good example of that. The Central Powers did not want the USA to get involved on the side of the Entente nations, and did not pose an immediate threat. Whether or not they would have later is open to conjecture.

 

[WRJames]

I think that we need to prosecute war crimes. Leaders need to understand that they are accountable for their actions. That includes war crimes committed by the US and by Israel. Of course, there are terrible crimes against humanity being perpetrated by others. Those need to be contained, and prosecuted also.

If Elie Wiesel thought that the West could have intervened in 1938, he was fooling himself. What kind of intervention did he think would have taken Hitler down? Diplomatic and economic intervention in the 1920's might have prevented Hitler from coming to power in the first place.

I am hoping that with the new administration the US will start to do more within the context of the UN, and that we can find diplomatic and economic solutions to some of the nagging conflicts. Dropping bombs doesn't seem to be working very well.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think that we need to prosecute war crimes. Leaders need to understand that they are accountable for their actions. That includes war crimes committed by the US and by Israel. Of course, there are terrible crimes against humanity being perpetrated by others. Those need to be contained, and prosecuted also.

If Elie Wiesel thought that the West could have intervened in 1938, he was fooling himself. What kind of intervention did he think would have taken Hitler down? Diplomatic and economic intervention in the 1920's might have prevented Hitler from coming to power in the first place.

I am hoping that with the new administration the US will start to do more within the context of the UN, and that we can find diplomatic and economic solutions to some of the nagging conflicts. Dropping bombs doesn't seem to be working very well.

Okay, then let's go and arrest all the Hamas leaders. They probably committed more crimes over the last month than anybody else.