What am I owed?

[SeaCat]

In work today I was told that I was being screwed over in work because after seven years there the hospital is not sending me to school. I disagreed with the person saying this and was then told that I was part of the problem with America today. WTF?

If I want to go to school then I will pay for it, and I will be going back to school again. I don't expect anyone else to pay for it.

Then again I seem to have this strange viewpoint. I don't want something I haven't earned.

If I want a new car then I will work hard and pay for it.

If I want a job I will find one, and I will do the job assigned to me. If I can't do the job then I will find another. (It may not be the job I want but it is a job.)

If I want to eat then I will pay for my food, either with cash or by other means. (ie. like growing it.)

What am I owed? I am owed a fair wage for a days work. (What is a fair wage is up to debate, but it has been so for millenia.)

What am I owed? I am owed the respect I give to others.

What am I owed? I am owed the relative safety from those who would pray on others, as long as I am willing to help provide that safety to others.

What am I owed? I am owed the freedom to do as I please as long as I do not injure others, as long as I am willing to accept that others have this same freedom.

So why am I being called part of the problem in American Society? I have the feeling it is because I don't agree with the view that someone is entitled to handouts because of their so called social standing. (ie. Race, Religeon, Gender or sexual preference.)

I treat everyone the same, in other words I treat them as they treat me. Then again I feel that everyone at the most basic has the same needs.

Cat

 

[redpaint]

could not agree with you more.

 

[Liar]

So why am I being called part of the problem in American Society? I have the feeling it is because I don't agree with the view that someone is entitled to handouts because of their so called social standing. (ie. Race, Religeon, Gender or sexual preference.)

I must be missing some huuuuuuuuuuge part of the story here.

1. Someone says you're being screwed over because you have worked your ass off for seven years and is not getting a certain benefit (paid education) from your employer.

2. You disagree, saying your employer doesn't owe you that.

3. This person is obviously of another opinion, and says you're part of the problem in American Society. (presumably because you don't demand what you, in his mind, deserve)

It seems to me that you and this person have different opinions on an employer's social responsibilitites and what is reasonable of the employees to demand of it, outside of the paycheck.

Why are you bringing "Race, Religeon, Gender or sexual preference" into the equation?

 

[3113]

Why are you bringing "Race, Religeon, Gender or sexual preference" into the equation?

Agreed. Are you sure this was about entitlement for race, religion, gender or sexual preference, Cat? It could have been that the person was arguing that you are entitled to something because you work hard and don't have the money for it--unlike some rich person who does have money and can send their kid to school even though the kid has never worked a day in his life.

Surely you don't think someone should be entitled to more respect, food, safety, freedom than you simply because their family inherited and passed on lots of money to them? If you're ethic is that all this must be earned, then children of rich folk have to earn it as well.

So maybe this was an argument that because you work you have earned it. Whereas if you didn't work, you wouldn't have earned it.

 

[Elianna]

I think that it is also a good investment for an employer to pay for a loyal employee to go to school for career advancement. They could ask that you stay with the hospital or something. Both people win: they get to keep a loyal employee, the employee has opportunity to advance at a career that he/she already excels at.

This happens in many companies.

Something else you might want to consider, Cat. If you take out a student loan will the pay increase end up making it worth it? I know that I had to balance those two options because I couldn't afford to pay for my master's out of pocket. However I weighed the benefits:

The degree cost me approx the amount of a luxury car.

The salary increase was the same amount. I figured that 30 years of a $30,000 salary increase that will continue to increase by $1000 every year beats the initial cost. Do the math. It might just be worth it.

 

[JagFarlane]

I think that it is also a good investment for an employer to pay for a loyal employee to go to school for career advancement. They could ask that you stay with the hospital or something. Both people win: they get to keep a loyal employee, the employee has opportunity to advance at a career that he/she already excels at.

This happens in many companies.

Something else you might want to consider, Cat. If you take out a student loan will the pay increase end up making it worth it? I know that I had to balance those two options because I couldn't afford to pay for my master's out of pocket. However I weighed the benefits:

The degree cost me approx the amount of a luxury car.

The salary increase was the same amount. I figured that 30 years of a $30,000 salary increase that will continue to increase by $1000 every year beats the initial cost. Do the math. It might just be worth it.

It could also be that the hospital does offer pay for tuition. Check into that. There are a lot of places that pay for someones tuition if they go part time to a local college. And even with an Associates in Nursing, you're headed places. Hell, if they agree to pay for it, I'd say go for it.

 

[oggbashan]

I wanted to go to a course at university in my own time and wholly paid for by me.

My employer had to agree because part of my study might include using information gained at work - but my employers would have the right to censor anything before I showed it to my tutors or anyone else at the university.

My employer declined to give me permission to take the course.

The official reason? They didn't consider that I had sufficient time to do the coursework.

The real reason? If I completed the qualification they might have to pay me more for the job I was doing satisfactorily.

Og

 

[jomar]

Entitlement certainly is ugly.

But yeah, maybe the hospital has some kind of tuition agreement. They'll pay all or part and you agree to stay at the hospital for X years. Or give you a .01% loan or something.

 

[SeaCat]

Okay part two of the conversation first. (It's easier.)

The only education reimbursement available through my place of work is limited to $1250.00 per year, if you take a minimum of 3 classes per semester and maintain a 3.5 GPA. You also have to maintain a work schedule of at least 36 hours per week to qualify. There is no other educational opportunity available through my employer, believe me I have looked and asked. (The educational programs for the R.N.'s on the other hand are nice.)

Now for the first part.

First you have to notice that my listing of groups includes damned near everyone on the planet.

Now for my point. In every society there will be people who feel that they are owed something because they belong to what they perceive to be a minority, irregardless of what that minority happens to be. These people are usually fairly small in number but they are very vocal. They want, no they demand to be treated differently from the others because they see themselves as being different in some way.

I disagree and I believe that many of our current American Societies ills have been brought about by this sense of entitlement. The idea that you are entitled to something you haven't earned runs contrary to what I was taught as I grew up.

Cat

 

[DesertPirate]

Okay part two of the conversation first. (It's easier.)

The only education reimbursement available through my place of work is limited to $1250.00 per year, if you take a minimum of 3 classes per semester and maintain a 3.5 GPA. You also have to maintain a work schedule of at least 36 hours per week to qualify. There is no other educational opportunity available through my employer, believe me I have looked and asked. (The educational programs for the R.N.'s on the other hand are nice.)

Now for the first part.

First you have to notice that my listing of groups includes damned near everyone on the planet.

Now for my point. In every society there will be people who feel that they are owed something because they belong to what they perceive to be a minority, irregardless of what that minority happens to be. These people are usually fairly small in number but they are very vocal. They want, no they demand to be treated differently from the others because they see themselves as being different in some way.

I disagree and I believe that many of our current American Societies ills have been brought about by this sense of entitlement. The idea that you are entitled to something you haven't earned runs contrary to what I was taught as I grew up.

Cat

Damn! Someone else actually gets it!
Thanks Cat!

 

[Liar]

Now for the first part.

First you have to notice that my listing of groups includes damned near everyone on the planet.

...except you, who is (afaik) white, male, and straight.

Now for my point. In every society there will be people who feel that they are owed something because they belong to what they perceive to be a minority, irregardless of what that minority happens to be. These people are usually fairly small in number but they are very vocal. They want, no they demand to be treated differently from the others because they see themselves as being different in some way.

I disagree and I believe that many of our current American Societies ills have been brought about by this sense of entitlement. The idea that you are entitled to something you haven't earned runs contrary to what I was taught as I grew up.

Uh huh. And I agree with you on that.

I just don't see that that was what the other person was talking about. Not from what you have told us about the conversation. Not that you were arbitrarily entitled to anything, but that you had actually morally earned a little something from your employer, since you have worked hard and loyally for them for all those years.

What made you think that he (or she) was talking about petty entitlement because of sex/race/religion/whatever, rather than earned benefits (that you may or may not agree with, but that's another discussion)?

 

[oggbashan]

As a former Human Resources Manager I would dispute the statement that you are being screwed by your employer over training.

What I would say is that your employers are not acting in their best interests. An investment in training your employees to become more qualified usually repays itself over and over. The employer can select those employees likely to be suitable for the training or degree course and would already know how dedicated and hard-working (or not) the potential trainee is.

Encouraging good employees to progress and to better themselves means that the employer has better qualified staff. Those staff come at a lower cost than recruiting already qualified outsiders who might have the pieces of paper but are unknowns for their work performance in practice.

Offering training to existing staff also helps motivate them. If they know that there are employer-supported ways to become better qualified and can move on to jobs with more responsibility and higher pay, they are likely to remain with the employer for longer. Of course some will take the training and then move on to another employer, but in my long experience few did.

My organisation grew its own supervisors and managers by training internally and supporting staff obtaining education externally. We had three levels of support:

1. Full support including full pay when at college, grants for books and materials, and fully paid work placement that was relevant to the course. This level was restricted to those who were most likely to be needed for higher level work as soon as qualified. No more than about 5% of applicants would have been likely to get this level of support.

2. Partial support including half-pay when at college, grants for books and materials, and fully paid work placement that was relevant to the course. About 50% of applicants were likely to get this level of support.

3. Minimal support with no pay when at college, grants for books and materials, and fully paid work placement if possible. This level included the right of return to the employment at the original pay, but not necessarily in the same job. This covered people who were considering courses that the employer didn't think would be relevant or useful except as a means of demonstrating that the applicant could complete a course of study.

Finally, if the employee wasn't considered even suitable for the lowest level of support, we would consider an application for re-employment if the former employee successfully completed their course. These people were considered to be one or more of
- insufficiently motivated,
- pursuing a course with no demonstrable relevance to the employer,
- has a poor employment record, or
- is just plain stupid.

If this category of employee completed their course successfully, we might admit we were wrong on the first and last reason but not the third.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

Entitlement? (Laughs)

I never worked for any employer who thought I was entitled to anything. Not even the salary they paid me for the work I did.

The only reason they paid me is because not paying me was against the law and the government works really hard to make sure those particular laws are enforced.

(Shrugs) But most employers are feudal in nature and so can't help but think of their employees as serfs. And a lot of people like being serfs.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't know. Obama just signed into law a law that makes it possible to sue for wage discrimination based on a case where a woman was denied pay equal to what her male colleagues were getting over several years because she didn't file in time. The old law said you had to file within 180 days of the first offense. Now you can file within 180 days of the latest offense. The Republicans fought the law tooth and nail.

Is she one of these special interest groups you're talking about?

 

[cloudy]

But most employers are feudal in nature and so can't help but think of their employees as serfs.

I couldn't disagree more.

I get that you had a bad experience, Rob, but one bad employer does not equal "most."

I worked as a manager for close to twenty years, and for four very large retail companies. I treated my employees extremely well - so well, in fact, that most of them followed me from company to company. I've found that the experience you had was the exception rather than the rule, and to be honest, I resent being tarred with that broad brush you're using, even if my tarring is unintentional.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'll give you another example: Let's say your hospital didn't offer its employees standard contracts with benefits and responsibilities. Would you ever go in there and negotiate your own contract and benefits like an independent contractor? How do you think you'd come out? Think you'd do okay on health insurance and vacation time? Service provision and hours, sick leave and overtime compensation, 401K, educational opportunity and job responsibilities, chances for promotion, grievance procedures, terms for dismissal?

You'd be going up against their lawyers and it would take you a week to hammer out a contract, and in the end you'd be screwed over so badly your ass would be glowing.

Just what are you owed? Nothing, my friend. Nothing you don't fight for. You think someone's going to pay you a fair day's wage for a fair day's work, just ask the lettuce pickers in the San Fernando Valley. Or the West Virginia mine workers before they unionized, or the lady garment workers in New York in 1903. No one owes you anything.

 

[neonlyte]

I treat everyone the same, in other words I treat them as they treat me. Then again I feel that everyone, at the most basic, has the same needs.

Cat

Never that easy, Cat. Though I agree generally with sentiment.

First - Europe works different from America. Generally, Europe recognises training as good and entitlements to training are built into most Public Sector employment contracts.

Second - some people are not capable of relying upon equal treatment. I'll ignore the screams, but some people are too dense to understand or comprehend the services and assistance that may be available to them IN TIME OF NEED. As a consequence, it is feasible to build an underclass even in 'social responsible' Europe; that is people who do not understand 'the system' and actually need someone else to walk them through the mechanics.

If you look at this specifically in the context of training, a large percentage of people did not make the best of their opportunities when they were young, but show aptitude later in life... should they be ignored 'support' to improve their situation through bolt-on training?

Similarly, others find themselves in a circumstance they never envisaged through the error of someone else, an accident, a missed diagnosis, negligence. Should they be denied 'support' to gain recompense from those who caused ill?

Anyone who is removed from main stream society through ill health, ill training, social problems, behavioural problems will be a drain on the society either through social services (payments) or as social misfits (crime); better, IMHO, to spend some money to improve the lot of an individual than to make society prey to the individual either economically of through criminality.

Generally speaking... and again, no one start screaming, the better the parents life, then the better the life of the offspring. All too often non-achievers breed non-achievers, while the better off produce a higher percentage of achievers, with notable exceptions only highlighted by their ancestry.

As for YOUR training, from what I've read, I doubt trainign will improve either your job satisfaction, though it might increase the frustration you sometimes express. On the other hand... you might be aiming for motor bike racing. I'm not sure where you do courses for that