Suggestion Thread

[Angeline]

Happy 2009, poets. I'm feeling happy and optimistic about the New Year. A lot of that has to do with the big O (and I don't mean the one we often write about here). I like change, change is good (especially the one happening in Washington). I have never regretted any major change I've made in my life--personal or professional. My New Year's resolution is to keep my personal focus this year on poetry, in my own life and here. And I know focusing on poetry on this forum is what is best for us all: always has been.

I don't think we've ever had a suggestion thread (though I could be wrong), but I think we need one and a sticky one at that. In spite of relatively few people posting at the moment, we have grown. There are a lot of new folks and folks who mostly lurk. I hope some of our absent friends will return and that this year we'll have more new poets joining us. It's our life's blood imo. But it has become clear to me that we need a place for suggestions and general comments and overall airing of opinions.

Let me be clear about that last point. I want us all to be free here: free to write and discuss, free to air our opinions. That helps us work together and improve as poets, it's a good thing. However, we all need to do so in an environment of mutual respect for our different goals and experiences. There have been a lot of questions (and hard feelings) in the past about moving or deleting posts and threads. Eve and Lauren and I have always tried to do this for the good of the forum. Most of the time you may not even realize we did because we mostly remove or edit spammy stuff. However, if people start going off on each other we will delete the posts. It will happen. It may not happen as soon as you see it because the mods do have lives and aren't glued to the forum. But when we see it, it will go. We reserve the right to make these decisions as moderators, and you have to trust that we try to do so in everyone's best interests. If your post or thread is removed and edited and you don't like it, talk to us. We won't have anyone on ignore, so if you write to us you will get a response. If you disagree with our reasoning, you are always welcome to take it to Laurel and Manu, the site owners. They are the final arbiters in these decisions. What you say to each other, in pm or email, we have no control over--we don't see that stuff and it's not part of what we do here. If someone bothers you, use ignore as best you can. If you feel you're being stalked or harrassed, notify Laurel and/or Manu. Dealing with that is their job and their decisions are final. It's their site.

And that said, I apologize for anything harsh or ugly I may have said through this time. It has been stressful in some ways for us all (don't even ask about my personal life!). I'm a big believer in letting go of bad feelings and moving forward. It's time to move forward.

I also want to address questions that came up when we created the Hangout and that may persist for some of us. We did so to make a forum similar to the Author's Hangout. People come here for two reasons: they want to write poetry and they want to hang with their friends. People still question what should be in the Hangout or what in the main forum. Here it is: the main forum is for poetry, poem writing, poetry critique and the associated discussion. The Hangout is for chatting, flirting, sharing mostly non-poetry opinions and discussion. Everyone is welcome everywhere. If you get nothing else from my post, get this: There is no "standard of quality" that needs to be met for you to write or critique on the main forum. Do your best and keep the focus on writing. And have a good time, a productive time, in both places.

But Angeline, you say, not every post is strictly about poetry in the main forum and there is poetry writing in the Hangout. True. We are poets and the mods are certainly not the Gestapo. Sometimes a few posts that are non-poetry related will slip in on the main forum, sometimes people will want to write poetry here in the Hangout. That is normal; it is also human. If we keep the focus on poems in the main forum and use the Hangout overall for other purposes, the chatty fun stuff, we'll be fine. And be aware that, like you, the mods are learning this new system, too. We will continue to move stuff that seems more appropriate in one place or the other. We will delete or move flurries of posts that get into excessive chatting/flirting on the main forum. We may not get to it immediately, but we will. If you feel we've missed something, let us know. If we make mistakes we will apologize to the thread starter or poster and do our best like we always try. Your part in this is to try to trust that we are learning and trying to help make the poetry forums good for us all. I have no doubt that over time the purposes of both places will be clearer to the oldtimers and we'll all help the new folks learn. We may yet be moving things around as our understanding of all this new stuff crystallizes. It's a work in progress! If you have questions or comments or concerns, pm us. If you don't like our response, contact Laurel and Manu. That system has worked well over the years on all the Lit forums.

2009 should be a very productive year here. Lauren is almost ready to unveil the poetry survivor challenge and we are working on various new ideas for both places in our poetry world. We very much want your suggestions here, too. If you have ideas for challenges or contests, or general suggestions, please post them here or pm us. This place works best when we work together.


Angeline

 

[champagne1982]

I really liked the way you integrated the hangout and the discussion forum in your latest threads on the top 10's. It was clever and inviting. I'd like to see more like that.

I found that switching between the two was easier than scrolling through many chatty threads to find the poetry posts further down on the index. Unlike the companion threads in the main forum, the poetry and chatter threads are less offensively (if we only consider extreme meanings) divided, not to mention easier to find.

So, clever poets, I think we can all take a page from Angie's notebook and build our challenge and discussion threads between the two forums without imposing extraordinary rules in either one. N'est-ce pas?

 

[Tzara]

I really liked the way you integrated the hangout and the discussion forum in your latest threads on the top 10's. It was clever and inviting. I'd like to see more like that.

I found that switching between the two was easier than scrolling through many chatty threads to find the poetry posts further down on the index. Unlike the companion threads in the main forum, the poetry and chatter threads are less offensively (if we only consider extreme meanings) divided, not to mention easier to find.

So, clever poets, I think we can all take a page from Angie's notebook and build our challenge and discussion threads between the two forums without imposing extraordinary rules in either one. N'est-ce pas?

Frankly, I found that division annoying and silly and have no desire to post to either of those threads. That presentation form seems to me to dis-integrate (the hyphen is important) what otherwise could have been a spontaneous conversation. I mean, think about it: Click here if you want to write a poem, but click here if you want to say something else. WTF? That is not a conversation, not that a thread should of necessity be a conversation, of course.

But a good thread is, in my mind, something like that.

Take this response as example. I'm going off half-cocked here, responding rather rawly to Champie's post (yes, feel free to make merry with that metaphor). I was formulating a more reasoned and thought-out response to Angie's original post, but given the intermediate reponse, I don't have the time now to do that.

So, mark this as a placeholder for Some Kind of Dissent, and give me a day or two to prepare my case.

 

[Angeline]

Frankly, I found that division annoying and silly and have no desire to post to either of those threads. That presentation form seems to me to dis-integrate (the hyphen is important) what otherwise could have been a spontaneous conversation. I mean, think about it: Click here if you want to write a poem, but click here if you want to say something else. WTF? That is not a conversation, not that a thread should of necessity be a conversation, of course.

But a good thread is, in my mind, something like that.

Take this response as example. I'm going off half-cocked here, responding rather rawly to Champie's post (yes, feel free to make merry with that metaphor). I was formulating a more reasoned and thought-out response to Angie's original post, but given the intermediate reponse, I don't have the time now to do that.

So, mark this as a placeholder for Some Kind of Dissent, and give me a day or two to prepare my case.

I'm sorry you don't like the idea. Thus far, I've gotten very positive feedback on it, some here, some in pm form. As much as you feel that separating the idea into two threads leads to dis-integration, others feel that it's a good idea because some people don't want to write a poem in addition to their list. They just want to have fun with a list or hold the ideas in the list for possible later inspiration. And what I've heard most so far is that people love that they can go to a poetry thread and not have to search through talky posts for poems (yes, I know there are some talky posts in the main forum thread now; they'll be coming out). Champ is not the only one who likes that, and I admit I thought that would be an attractive part of it. I have an idea for another, similar thread that I'll likely get going tomorrow and I hope others will consider threads that are split between the two forums, but complement each other.

Again, I'm sorry it isn't your thing. I know we can't please everyone: some people will love an idea, others will hate it. There will always be dissent of ideas. I do think we need to find ways to let the two forums develop synergy. Maybe you can come up with other ideas that will help that happen.


~A.

 

[Tzara]

I'm sorry you don't like the idea. Thus far, I've gotten very positive feedback on it, some here, some in pm form. As much as you feel that separating the idea into two threads leads to dis-integration, others feel that it's a good idea because some people don't want to write a poem in addition to their list. They just want to have fun with a list or hold the ideas in the list for possible later inspiration. And what I've heard most so far is that people love that they can go to a poetry thread and not have to search through talky posts for poems (yes, I know there are some talky posts in the main forum thread now; they'll be coming out). Champ is not the only one who likes that, and I admit I thought that would be an attractive part of it. I have an idea for another, similar thread that I'll likely get going tomorrow and I hope others will consider threads that are split between the two forums, but complement each other.

Again, I'm sorry it isn't your thing. I know we can't please everyone: some people will love an idea, others will hate it. There will always be dissent of ideas. I do think we need to find ways to let the two forums develop synergy. Maybe you can come up with other ideas that will help that happen.


~A.

It is no matter whether I like your bifurcated form or not. If some do, it is a good thing.

But it is not my thing. I prefer a more free-for-all kind of thread where (perhaps) poems and chat and flirts and threadjacks about pirates in Somalia all come together in some kind of chaotic conversation over coffee or booze or equatorian rainwater.

Difference of style, of course. Yours doesn't appeal to me in the least. Mine prolly doesn't appeal to you.

'S ok. We's all different.

All that I would ask is that you mods leave things alone in the Hangout. If someone starts a thread there, trust that they understand that people might post any fucking thing. Let Free Speech (which is something I believe in), however silly, raw, or unpleasant it may be, prevail there. I like threads, poetry threads, where people say whatever they want, regardless of whatever was the original theme, the OP's desire, what other posters have said, whatever. If things go off-track, that's OK.

I want a place where the poetry mods will leave whatever happens alone, 'cept if someone violates the forum rules.

I thought that was the Hangout, but you're now implying that you might pick threads up and move them into the Main Forum, if they're too focused on poetry.

All I ask is that if they're in the Hangout, you leave them alone.

Please.

Give us a "Mother-Free" zone where we can say what we want.

Geez. You took the Main Forum. Isn't that enough?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Happy 2009, poets. I'm feeling happy and optimistic about the New Year. A lot of that has to do with the big O (and I don't mean the one we often write about here). I like change, change is good (especially the one happening in Washington). I have never regretted any major change I've made in my life--personal or professional. My New Year's resolution is to keep my personal focus this year on poetry, in my own life and here. And I know focusing on poetry on this forum is what is best for us all: always has been.

I don't think we've ever had a suggestion thread (though I could be wrong), but I think we need one and a sticky one at that. In spite of relatively few people posting at the moment, we have grown. There are a lot of new folks and folks who mostly lurk. I hope some of our absent friends will return and that this year we'll have more new poets joining us. It's our life's blood imo. But it has become clear to me that we need a place for suggestions and general comments and overall airing of opinions.

Let me be clear about that last point. I want us all to be free here: free to write and discuss, free to air our opinions. That helps us work together and improve as poets, it's a good thing. However, we all need to do so in an environment of mutual respect for our different goals and experiences. There have been a lot of questions (and hard feelings) in the past about moving or deleting posts and threads. Eve and Lauren and I have always tried to do this for the good of the forum. Most of the time you may not even realize we did because we mostly remove or edit spammy stuff. However, if people start going off on each other we will delete the posts. It will happen. It may not happen as soon as you see it because the mods do have lives and aren't glued to the forum. But when we see it, it will go. We reserve the right to make these decisions as moderators, and you have to trust that we try to do so in everyone's best interests. If your post or thread is removed and edited and you don't like it, talk to us. We won't have anyone on ignore, so if you write to us you will get a response. If you disagree with our reasoning, you are always welcome to take it to Laurel and Manu, the site owners. They are the final arbiters in these decisions. What you say to each other, in pm or email, we have no control over--we don't see that stuff and it's not part of what we do here. If someone bothers you, use ignore as best you can. If you feel you're being stalked or harrassed, notify Laurel and/or Manu. Dealing with that is their job and their decisions are final. It's their site.

And that said, I apologize for anything harsh or ugly I may have said through this time. It has been stressful in some ways for us all (don't even ask about my personal life!). I'm a big believer in letting go of bad feelings and moving forward. It's time to move forward.

I also want to address questions that came up when we created the Hangout and that may persist for some of us. We did so to make a forum similar to the Author's Hangout. People come here for two reasons: they want to write poetry and they want to hang with their friends. People still question what should be in the Hangout or what in the main forum. Here it is: the main forum is for poetry, poem writing, poetry critique and the associated discussion. The Hangout is for chatting, flirting, sharing mostly non-poetry opinions and discussion. Everyone is welcome everywhere. If you get nothing else from my post, get this: There is no "standard of quality" that needs to be met for you to write or critique on the main forum. Do your best and keep the focus on writing. And have a good time, a productive time, in both places.

But Angeline, you say, not every post is strictly about poetry in the main forum and there is poetry writing in the Hangout. True. We are poets and the mods are certainly not the Gestapo. Sometimes a few posts that are non-poetry related will slip in on the main forum, sometimes people will want to write poetry here in the Hangout. That is normal; it is also human. If we keep the focus on poems in the main forum and use the Hangout overall for other purposes, the chatty fun stuff, we'll be fine. And be aware that, like you, the mods are learning this new system, too. We will continue to move stuff that seems more appropriate in one place or the other. We will delete or move flurries of posts that get into excessive chatting/flirting on the main forum. We may not get to it immediately, but we will. If you feel we've missed something, let us know. If we make mistakes we will apologize to the thread starter or poster and do our best like we always try. Your part in this is to try to trust that we are learning and trying to help make the poetry forums good for us all. I have no doubt that over time the purposes of both places will be clearer to the oldtimers and we'll all help the new folks learn. We may yet be moving things around as our understanding of all this new stuff crystallizes. It's a work in progress! If you have questions or comments or concerns, pm us. If you don't like our response, contact Laurel and Manu. That system has worked well over the years on all the Lit forums.

2009 should be a very productive year here. Lauren is almost ready to unveil the poetry survivor challenge and we are working on various new ideas for both places in our poetry world. We very much want your suggestions here, too. If you have ideas for challenges or contests, or general suggestions, please post them here or pm us. This place works best when we work together.


Angeline

I am fine with everything you've said here. I just hope that it is enforced CONSISTANTLY for everyone. When certain "esteemed" poets make disrespectful comments towards others, those comments need to get deleted as readily as the ones from newer or less "esteemed" people.

That should also apply to the snarkiness that leads to "going off on each other." Ignore works fine up to a point, but the use and availability of that feature does not grant other people or their alts the right to continue to spew disrespect and bile (regardless of how "cheerfully" the words are phrased).

Finally, PLEASE, do not construe my comments to be a criticism of the mods. You guys do a wonderful job. I just want it to be as "wonderful" for all of us as it is for others.

 

[Angeline]

It is no matter whether I like your bifurcated form or not. If some do, it is a good thing.

But it is not my thing. I prefer a more free-for-all kind of thread where (perhaps) poems and chat and flirts and threadjacks about pirates in Somalia all come together in some kind of chaotic conversation over coffee or booze or equatorian rainwater.

Difference of style, of course. Yours doesn't appeal to me in the least. Mine prolly doesn't appeal to you.

'S ok. We's all different.

All that I would ask is that you mods leave things alone in the Hangout. If someone starts a thread there, trust that they understand that people might post any fucking thing. Let Free Speech (which is something I believe in), however silly, raw, or unpleasant it may be, prevail there. I like threads, poetry threads, where people say whatever they want, regardless of whatever was the original theme, the OP's desire, what other posters have said, whatever. If things go off-track, that's OK.

I want a place where the poetry mods will leave whatever happens alone, 'cept if someone violates the forum rules.

I thought that was the Hangout, but you're now implying that you might pick threads up and move them into the Main Forum, if they're too focused on poetry.

All I ask is that if they're in the Hangout, you leave them alone.

Please.

Give us a "Mother-Free" zone where we can say what we want.

Geez. You took the Main Forum. Isn't that enough?

Aww, Tzara, nobody "took" the main forum. Again, I'm sorry you see it that way but it wasn't anyone's intention. Both forums are for everyone, they really are, and it's my sincere hope that somewhere down the road everyone will use both forums (if not all threads) equally comfortably. I've been concerned that some folks have thought this change meant we're somehow segregating the main forum for "better poets" (whatever that means), and that some are less welcome there than others. That's just not true. I've always felt that we all learn from each other here, and I personally don't want to miss opportunities to learn from anyone.

It is obvious that there are some threads here in the Hangout (like the Dirty 30) where people really enjoy having the kind of give and take you describe. I know it would be a bad idea to try to move those because we really do want people to have every opportunity to write where they feel most comfortable. And there are some threads in the main forum (like the Passion thread, for one) that we would never move to the Hangout. We're sensitive to the notion that there are also people here who want places to write without going off track. So though we don't want to recreate the main forum in the Hangout or vice versa, we do recognize that there will be some of each in the other. I tried to explain that in my first post in this thread. I believe that means you and I agree on that. I don't know that I would have understood all this on Day One of the move, but it's evolving, we're evolving with this as time goes on.

And I have no intention of policing threads. I didn't in the past and I don't want to now. I'm a moderator here because I'm a poet. What I want most is a peaceful environment where I can work on my poetry and have a few laughs with my friends. But I have learned that when we get angry and say personal things we later regret (like "you're an asshole and crazy" and etc.), it tends to have a lasting negative effect on the forum, at least when people have it staring them in the face. I know I'm far from the only one who feels this way because I've heard from people about it. Those kinds of posts (as well as rule-breaking stuff) will be taken out, not other kinds of posts. If I see them. I don't have the time or inclination to be scouring threads for "mean posts," but the big blowups do tend to stand out. I've always felt what separates us from some of the other forums is that we're a little more kindhearted here. I love that about us. If you disagree you should pursue that, but I think all the mods feel pretty strongly that we need to act when people start ripping and screaming at each other. No matter who does it. That includes me, though I've unfurled my very long fuse once again.

And no matter what you or anyone may think, I have no desire to be anyone's mom here. Not even in some wacky fantasy lol. I have two kids now, and they're delightful but also all I can handle in the Mommy department.

 

[hmmnmm]

Happy 2009, poets. I'm feeling happy and optimistic about the New Year. A lot of that has to do with the big O (and I don't mean the one we often write about here). I like change, change is good (especially the one happening in Washington). I have never regretted any major change I've made in my life--personal or professional. My New Year's resolution is to keep my personal focus this year on poetry, in my own life and here. And I know focusing on poetry on this forum is what is best for us all: always has been.

I don't think we've ever had a suggestion thread (though I could be wrong), but I think we need one and a sticky one at that. In spite of relatively few people posting at the moment, we have grown. There are a lot of new folks and folks who mostly lurk. I hope some of our absent friends will return and that this year we'll have more new poets joining us. It's our life's blood imo. But it has become clear to me that we need a place for suggestions and general comments and overall airing of opinions.

Let me be clear about that last point. I want us all to be free here: free to write and discuss, free to air our opinions. That helps us work together and improve as poets, it's a good thing. However, we all need to do so in an environment of mutual respect for our different goals and experiences. There have been a lot of questions (and hard feelings) in the past about moving or deleting posts and threads. Eve and Lauren and I have always tried to do this for the good of the forum. Most of the time you may not even realize we did because we mostly remove or edit spammy stuff. However, if people start going off on each other we will delete the posts. It will happen. It may not happen as soon as you see it because the mods do have lives and aren't glued to the forum. But when we see it, it will go. We reserve the right to make these decisions as moderators, and you have to trust that we try to do so in everyone's best interests. If your post or thread is removed and edited and you don't like it, talk to us. We won't have anyone on ignore, so if you write to us you will get a response. If you disagree with our reasoning, you are always welcome to take it to Laurel and Manu, the site owners. They are the final arbiters in these decisions. What you say to each other, in pm or email, we have no control over--we don't see that stuff and it's not part of what we do here. If someone bothers you, use ignore as best you can. If you feel you're being stalked or harrassed, notify Laurel and/or Manu. Dealing with that is their job and their decisions are final. It's their site.

And that said, I apologize for anything harsh or ugly I may have said through this time. It has been stressful in some ways for us all (don't even ask about my personal life!). I'm a big believer in letting go of bad feelings and moving forward. It's time to move forward.

I also want to address questions that came up when we created the Hangout and that may persist for some of us. We did so to make a forum similar to the Author's Hangout. People come here for two reasons: they want to write poetry and they want to hang with their friends. People still question what should be in the Hangout or what in the main forum. Here it is: the main forum is for poetry, poem writing, poetry critique and the associated discussion. The Hangout is for chatting, flirting, sharing mostly non-poetry opinions and discussion. Everyone is welcome everywhere. If you get nothing else from my post, get this: There is no "standard of quality" that needs to be met for you to write or critique on the main forum. Do your best and keep the focus on writing. And have a good time, a productive time, in both places.

But Angeline, you say, not every post is strictly about poetry in the main forum and there is poetry writing in the Hangout. True. We are poets and the mods are certainly not the Gestapo. Sometimes a few posts that are non-poetry related will slip in on the main forum, sometimes people will want to write poetry here in the Hangout. That is normal; it is also human. If we keep the focus on poems in the main forum and use the Hangout overall for other purposes, the chatty fun stuff, we'll be fine. And be aware that, like you, the mods are learning this new system, too. We will continue to move stuff that seems more appropriate in one place or the other. We will delete or move flurries of posts that get into excessive chatting/flirting on the main forum. We may not get to it immediately, but we will. If you feel we've missed something, let us know. If we make mistakes we will apologize to the thread starter or poster and do our best like we always try. Your part in this is to try to trust that we are learning and trying to help make the poetry forums good for us all. I have no doubt that over time the purposes of both places will be clearer to the oldtimers and we'll all help the new folks learn. We may yet be moving things around as our understanding of all this new stuff crystallizes. It's a work in progress! If you have questions or comments or concerns, pm us. If you don't like our response, contact Laurel and Manu. That system has worked well over the years on all the Lit forums.

2009 should be a very productive year here. Lauren is almost ready to unveil the poetry survivor challenge and we are working on various new ideas for both places in our poetry world. We very much want your suggestions here, too. If you have ideas for challenges or contests, or general suggestions, please post them here or pm us. This place works best when we work together.


Angeline

Once in a while when it's been quiet down there in the Fireside I can practically feel eyes looking down on it. Eyes who wield power. Eyes who decide who goes where and when. And I sensed the consideration. "Maybe that Fireside Thread should go elsewhere." And I think I said down there, that it was no big deal to me. And really. Of life's concerns the placement of a thread that was created with one intent and sort of shifted on its own, is really pretty much at the bottom. So, if anyone's worried about how I will make it through the night if the Cuddly Fireside Threadcast is relocated to these wonderful... wonderful... this wonderful... fuck... you know... they talk about fuckin here a lot don't they? I'm married... I might listen in though. Anyway, I'll be fine if what must be done is done.

Maybe sort of related, an example: the top ten thread. I'm sure when Angeline made it she wasn't thinking, "this will change tihmmnmm/hmmnmm's world." But it did. I saw everything brand new. Now I've not been in a very poemy mood lately so I probably wouldn't be writing a poem about my top ten favorite movies (all comedies. All. I mean I'd never really thought about it. Nothing more serious than Jaws even enters the list until at least #24, or even #29). First of all would come the labor of the top 10. Animal House would be #1 most likely. I mean, every time I see that thing I want to go drinking and fuck with authority figures. And what's wrong with going drinking and fucking with authority figures? Anyway... but after that? They're all pretty much interchangeable. Big Lebowski would be a contender.... Anyway, if I ever do or did actually consolidate the list to ten and then actually wrote a real poem or even a fake poem, I wouldn't really get too sweaty whether that poem would be posted in the official poetry forum or the place where they talk about fucking. I think I could find it. That's just me though.

There was something else. Forgot it.

I feel really bad about reneging on the Review obligation today. Just couldn't... had stuff on my mind. There were a couple nice ones. Some whoppers...

What was the question?

 

[Angeline]

I am fine with everything you've said here. I just hope that it is enforced CONSISTANTLY for everyone. When certain "esteemed" poets make disrespectful comments towards others, those comments need to get deleted as readily as the ones from newer or less "esteemed" people.

That should also apply to the snarkiness that leads to "going off on each other." Ignore works fine up to a point, but the use and availability of that feature does not grant other people or their alts the right to continue to spew disrespect and bile (regardless of how "cheerfully" the words are phrased).

Finally, PLEASE, do not construe my comments to be a criticism of the mods. You guys do a wonderful job. I just want it to be as "wonderful" for all of us as it is for others.

I don't take it as personal criticism, ok?

Two points. First, there is no way mods can be aware of all ill feelings unless people tell us. And even then, snarking goes on all the time and, as you point out, is sometimes well buried in happy talk. I'm human. I can't be expected to know about everything that goes on here or how much a particular post might bug somebody. So I'm limiting what I'd personally edit or delete to name calling, epithets, that kind of thing. You know the kind of post I mean. If I start trying to make judgments about who really meant what--or might have meant it or made some subtextual slur at somebody I'll a) get it wrong most of the time; b) go crazy; and c) never have time for poetry. Down that road lies madness imo. I've tried to do it in the past and it doesn't work. I'm only willing to try to tone down the big screaming matches. And I can't referee alts because I don't necessarily know who they are, or pm's or email because I don't see them. That's just unreasonable to me. And most important, I'm here for the poetry like everyone else, not to be a cop. I have never wanted to be a cop!

Second, no one is more "esteemed" here than anyone else. Sure there are people I've known longer and frankly like better than others. Doesn't everyone feel that way? Some people you click with, others are more acquaintances. And more importantly, no one gets a pass on screaming at someone else here. If anyone feels at that point with someone else they need to take a break or contact Laurel and Manu and use ignore. I know ignore doesn't work perfectly, but it's all we have really, and it's not fair to others here who just want to write and enjoy themselves. Or people can go vent on the GB; they love that shit there lol. You know maybe this idea I have of getting rid of epithet posts won't work, but I want to try it. I don't want any more extended fighting here. No blame about who or what, understand. I just value a respectful atmosphere so we can write and enjoy ourselves and I want that for the forum as much as possible. And the corollary of that is that everyone here deserves to be treated with respect. If someone is doing their poetry thing and not breaking rules, I'm not going to publically flog them or shun them because someone else doesn't like them. I don't want to be a cop and I don't want to be anyone's mom (here lol). I hope there is little or no reason to even deal with this. Usually we go for months (at least) at a time with a peaceful ambiance. At least that's what I've observed over the years.

I'm going to stop here cause I've been up since 6 this morning and I feel my logic deteriorating cause I'm tired. I'll be around tomorrow if you want to discuss it more (but I'd rather write poetry!). If we all focus on the purpose of the forum, poetry and good times, we should be fine.

 

[champagne1982]

I remember when the mods were one entity known as The Poets. They became moderators because there was a need for moderation at the time. The poets were grateful that someone could and did manage the situations of stickiness and spam relocation.

The forum changed. The sub-forum was born out of a trial that worked for a while but fell away, aborted and wasting, since only a small pocket of poets were using it and then only sporadically. Then the sub-forum changed after a particularly bitter disagreement and I think people tended to linger on the sour feelings with that as the cause for change rather than seeing it as a move toward improvement. Hell, we all know that there were several voices of dissent as to the relocation of threads, mine was one.

I think, due to that, the expansion had more of the flavour of division rather than being seasoned with the idea of growth. I really think it's the timing that continues to stick in some poets' craws rather than the idea itself. Maybe the idea would have been easier to swallow had there been more time to chew on it, maybe not. There will always be people who have differing tastes and for that I'm thankful. But, in this as in all meals that disagree with digestion, maybe we should take a Tums and get on with the next experience.

It is CHANGE and not CHASTISEMENT. I sincerely believe no one wants to micro-manage and stifle even though, in my opinion, there have been people deliberately (and even sub-conciously I expect) sabotaging the moderators' intents to let well enough alone. My suggestion is to look for the positive aspects of having a place that we can simply banter, flirt, play, celebrate and console in, yet still move freely into another place to learn, encourage, write and critique in; the two places are not exclusive.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Oh I was going to just suggest one thing. I don't at all mind the idea of the hangout. But the Dirty 30 seems very much to be a poetry thread so seems to need to be in the lower forum. (Or main forum, whatever one calls it.) I sort of enjoy the idea that I can go up to post flirts and whatnot.

When it is a little nebulous (the blog(s), for example), I could see how it might go one way or another. I just would hate to have it seem that some threads were delegated to one place or the other by virtue of who started the thread. I'm sure that's not how it is, but I worry that it is how it may appear.

I agree with SB that the Mods do a pretty difficult job very well. It is a considerable task to keep a bunch of sensitive, expressive people happy. And even more important, to help inspire us to write poems.

I may be alone in my desire to see the Dirty 30 moved down to the main forum, but since it is writing of the same nature as the forum down there, that is where it seems to belong.

ETA
This was written without reading any of the above posts or arguments, and is in no way a response or rebuttal to anyone else.

 

[Maria2394]

I really liked the way you integrated the hangout and the discussion forum in your latest threads on the top 10's. It was clever and inviting. I'd like to see more like that.

I found that switching between the two was easier than scrolling through many chatty threads to find the poetry posts further down on the index. Unlike the companion threads in the main forum, the poetry and chatter threads are less offensively (if we only consider extreme meanings) divided, not to mention easier to find.

So, clever poets, I think we can all take a page from Angie's notebook and build our challenge and discussion threads between the two forums without imposing extraordinary rules in either one. N'est-ce pas?

I agree with what Champ said, about the integration, even though it confused me at first. I fixed it. And Angeline, thank you, as Dora said, for being the voice of reason over so much insanity. Although, there have been several reasonable ones lately, Champ among them.

I choo both, and I'm hetting a sub ready to send off. wish me luck

~m

 

[WickedEve]

QUOTE=Tzara
Frankly, I found that division annoying and silly and have no desire to post to either of those threads.

Fortunately you have a right to post or not post. That's how I approach the forum. To read and post. Or not to read and post.

QUOTE=Tzara
It is no matter whether I like your bifurcated form or not. If some do, it is a good thing.

But it is not my thing. I prefer a more free-for-all kind of thread where (perhaps) poems and chat and flirts and threadjacks about pirates in Somalia all come together in some kind of chaotic conversation over coffee or booze or equatorian rainwater.

So go make one of those -- wherever you want. Sounds like your style and I hope you start more threads.

QUOTE=Tzara
Geez. You took the Main Forum. Isn't that enough?
No. We begin with the main forum and eventually divide the world into on-topic subforums.

QUOTE=Tzara
Give us a "Mother-Free" zone where we can say what we want.
Is that you Norman?

 

[WickedEve]

All that I would ask is that you mods leave things alone in the Hangout. If someone starts a thread there, trust that they understand that people might post any fucking thing.

I thought that was the Hangout, but you're now implying that you might pick threads up and move them into the Main Forum, if they're too focused on poetry.

All I ask is that if they're in the Hangout, you leave them alone.

I agree with you on this one. I'm pretty sure we don't have any plans to move anything from the hangout to the main forum. A "happy birthday" thread, for example, would be moved from the main area to the hangout, but I can't imagine a thread started in the hangout ever being moved to the main fourm, unless the OP makes a request.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I agree with you on this one. I'm pretty sure we don't have any plans to move anything from the hangout to the main forum. A "happy birthday" thread, for example, would be moved from the main area to the hangout, but I can't imagine a thread started in the hangout ever being moved to the main fourm, unless the OP makes a request.

That is sensible, I suppose. I hadn't considered that the OP might put a poetry thread in the Hangout because he or she felt more comfortable there. I suppose I prefer my sorting a bit tidier. Socks in the sock drawer and panties in the panty drawer. That kind of thing. But who am I to tell other people where to put their panties? So to speak.

 

[Angeline]

That is sensible, I suppose. I hadn't considered that the OP might put a poetry thread in the Hangout because he or she felt more comfortable there. I suppose I prefer my sorting a bit tidier. Socks in the sock drawer and panties in the panty drawer. That kind of thing. But who am I to tell other people where to put their panties? So to speak.

Hi sweets. I've missed you this week, but I'm putting in lots of mod time here as you see.

See, I basically agree with you on the organization thing but that's obviously not everyone's preference. Tzara likes the give and take in the threads in this forum. I respect our differences so I'm not going to move a thread to be rigid in my way of seeing things.

It's hard to please everyone. Well, it's impossible lol. I think what we've done makes some people happy and others pretty unhappy. But we're really trying to find compromises that everyone can accept. I think we have. I just want to get back to focusing on my writing. Our job has never been to keep everyone happy! It it was I would never have agreed to moderate. But we do try to be responsive. Sometimes we don't get it right and I regret when that happens. I do. But I love this place as much or more as anyone else here. And it's because of poetry.

 

[Angeline]

Oh Dora, one more thing I wanted to add. I'm pretty confused about the Lit Blog myself. At first I thought it belonged in the main forum because some writers, Eve especially comes to mind, have used it to write what I'd call prose poetry. But also people tend to chat in there. My inclination for now is to leave well enough alone and see what happens. If the thread gets to be mostly talky-chatty, it'll be moved. As I've said before in this thread and elsewhere, it's all evolving and what goes where will become more clear, I think, as time passes.

One thing I am very clear on though is that both forums are for everyone. The Hangout is not a sanctuary for people who are pissed about the changes. Well, they can treat it that way if they want, but that's not its purpose. When we first made the change, I was told (and I know more than a few felt this way) that creating the Hangout was akin to segregating some of the poets (and to a lesser place). That wasn't true then and it isn't now. And if everyone isn't equally welcome in both places, that is segregation and I am definitely not down with that.

 

[WickedEve]

Hi sweets. I've missed you this week, but I'm putting in lots of mod time here as you see.

See, I basically agree with you on the organization thing but that's obviously not everyone's preference. Tzara likes the give and take in the threads in this forum. I respect our differences so I'm not going to move a thread to be rigid in my way of seeing things.

It's hard to please everyone. Well, it's impossible lol. I think what we've done makes some people happy and others pretty unhappy. But we're really trying to find compromises that everyone can accept. I think we have. I just want to get back to focusing on my writing. Our job has never been to keep everyone happy! It it was I would never have agreed to moderate. But we do try to be responsive. Sometimes we don't get it right and I regret when that happens. I do. But I love this place as much or more as anyone else here. And it's because of poetry.

Go write some poetry.

Honestly, when I'm posting on a suddenly thread, blog thread, etc, I'm cool with some light chat/comments. But it does get out of hand, we all do it, and the thread goes on for pages with flirt. Everything is okay -- in moderation. But it's good to keep some writing threads about writing. I don't want to post something and have no one give me feedback on it because they can't find it in four pages of nonsense. I've given up on some threads because of it and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. Fortunately, we now have a subforum where someone like Tzara can post a poetry thread where it's "anything goes." I like having both forums.

 

[WickedEve]

Oh Dora, one more thing I wanted to add. I'm pretty confused about the Lit Blog myself. At first I thought it belonged in the main forum because some writers, Eve especially comes to mind, have used it to write what I'd call prose poetry. But also people tend to chat in there. My inclination for now is to leave well enough alone and see what happens. If the thread gets to be mostly talky-chatty, it'll be moved. As I've said before in this thread and elsewhere, it's all evolving and what goes where will become more clear, I think, as time passes.

One thing I am very clear on though is that both forums are for everyone. The Hangout is not a sanctuary for people who are pissed about the changes. Well, they can treat it that way if they want, but that's not its purpose. When we first made the change, I was told (and I know more than a few felt this way) that creating the Hangout was akin to segregating some of the poets (and to a lesser place). That wasn't true then and it isn't now. And if everyone isn't equally welcome in both places, that is segregation and I am definitely not down with that.

I stopped using the blog because, at one point, it was too chatty. I really enjoyed it as just a blog thread, but it didn't last. That's okay, I guess.

Some people are staying in the hangout because they are pissed? It's childish. No one is keeping anyone from posting on either forum. Just post, people! If something really needs to be moved, then it gets moved. It happens on other forums and I don't think there is a lot of freaking out over it. If a few posters, who can't seem to calm down over this, would just post and go on about having a good time and writing, then I think everyone else would follow, and we'd have a pretty content and productive forum.

 

[WickedEve]

Before I leave for the day, I want you to know what this forum is. I'm speaking to you all. This forum is WickedEve. Without WickedEve there would be no forum. This forum is bijou. This forum is Tzara and Angeline and champy. It's UYS, SafeBet, Liar, Fool, Maria, Pandora. Without hmmnmm and homburg, Liar, vampiredust, without senna and LadynStFreknBed, and the list goes on and on, there would be no forum. So, guys, we are the forum. We are the poetry feedback & discussion and we are the poets' hangout. We are the world. Okay, we're just the poetry forum. Let's be a damn good one. I, Eve, promise to be more careful about moving stuff and, like, more careful about, you know, drinking and posting on New Year's Day. I promise to, at least, try.

later guys

 

[Angeline]

I stopped using the blog because, at one point, it was too chatty. I really enjoyed it as just a blog thread, but it didn't last. That's okay, I guess.

Some people are staying in the hangout because they are pissed? It's childish. No one is keeping anyone from posting on either forum. Just post, people! If something really needs to be moved, then it gets moved. It happens on other forums and I don't think there is a lot of freaking out over it. If a few posters, who can't seem to calm down over this, would just post and go on about having a good time and writing, then I think everyone else would follow, and we'd have a pretty content and productive forum.

I could be totally wrong about that. It's just a feeling I've had. If I'm wrong about it, I apologize. My main point is that I want everyone to know they're welcome everywhere here. Like you said, we are the world (though eww it made me feel creepy saying that lol...must be the Michael Jackson creep factor.)

 

[Safe_Bet]

Before I leave for the day, I want you to know what this forum is. I'm speaking to you all. This forum is WickedEve. Without WickedEve there would be no forum. This forum is bijou. This forum is Tzara and Angeline and champy. It's UYS, SafeBet, Liar, Fool, Maria, Pandora. Without hmmnmm and homburg, Liar, vampiredust, without senna and LadynStFreknBed, and the list goes on and on, there would be no forum. So, guys, we are the forum. We are the poetry feedback & discussion and we are the poets' hangout. We are the world. Okay, we're just the poetry forum. Let's be a damn good one. I, Eve, promise to be more careful about moving stuff and, like, more careful about, you know, drinking and posting on New Year's Day. I promise to, at least, try.

later guys

Okay, and I promise to TRY to be more "We" and less "Cunt". At least in any of the negative ways...

I would be happier though, if there were more volunteers for the "We are the Lesbians" part of it... just saying...

 

[WickedEve]

I could be totally wrong about that. It's just a feeling I've had. If I'm wrong about it, I apologize. My main point is that I want everyone to know they're welcome everywhere here. Like you said, we are the world (though eww it made me feel creepy saying that lol...must be the Michael Jackson creep factor.)

No, you're not wrong.

Michael Jackson. LOL

Oh, I need to go, darn it. I hope there's a forum still here when I get back!

 

[WickedEve]

Okay, and I promise to TRY to be more "We" and less "Cunt". At least in any of the negative ways...

I would be happier though, if there were more volunteers for the "We are the Lesbians" part of it... just saying...

You're a lesbian?

 

[Angeline]

Okay, and I promise to TRY to be more "We" and less "Cunt". At least in any of the negative ways...

I would be happier though, if there were more volunteers for the "We are the Lesbians" part of it... just saying...

I can't be a lesbian. I've tried and I just giggle and want men. But maybe you need a Sappho poetry thread or Grrrlz Roll Call or something.

Hey, I just finished reading this biography about Laura Nyro. Do you know who she is (I love her but she and I are way before your time...) She came out in the mid or late 70s I think and has written some amazing woman-focused music. I bet you'd really like her.