Thoughts on Scientology.....

[ottohauser1977]

.....is it just me, or is the German Government very craven for bowing to the pressure to accept this sinister syndicate posing as a protected religion?

Seriously! They are NOT a valid religion, protected by religious liberty. Not by any means.

I am all for freedom of religion, but I am still incensed that John Travolta once appeared before the U.S. Congress and testified that the Scientologists were an oppressed, persecuted, innocent faith suffering under the "cruel repression" of the German and other governments in Europe and elsewhere. Grrrr...Complaining about China's treatment of Christians, Buddhists, and Falun Gong makes sense, but Germany is NOT a religious persecutor anymore. We left that behind us with the Berlin Wall.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Why shouldn't scientology be free to proselytize and call themselves a religion or a business or a new dance craze if they want? What right does a government have for banning it? It seems like a flgrant breach of the right of freedom of speech and freedom of worship to me.

 

[ottohauser1977]

Why shouldn't scientology be free to proselytize and call themselves a religion or a business or a new dance craze if they want? What right does a government have for banning it?

The problem is not that they exercise religious liberty, it's that they have a sinister purpose and syndicate mentality, which masquerades as a religion. If they were a real religion, that would be different. They're not. Anonymous has that part right. There is a hidden agenda here, posing as a persecuted sect.

I am all for religious freedom, be it Falun Gong, Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses. The trouble comes with a secretive organization that uses religion much the way that the Moonies did, as a means to brainwash and terrorize its members, and then bilk them out of their money, while receiving special privileges. Recall that Hubbard didn't declare it a religion until after the taxman came after him.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree, scientology is not a religion.

 

[Guest]

I agree, scientology is not a religion.

Neither is the Westboro Baptist Church, but they are allowed free religious reign.

 

[AchtungNight]

Otto, I have a new story up I think you need to read. "Passion Ch.4" deals with exactly the issue with which you're struggling. Maybe it will open your mind.

On Scientology, I know why you feel about it as you do. However, to the follower of the religion the Church of Scientology is not an evil organization, a criminal scam, crazy or anything like that. It is a religion, the same as Christianity or Judaism is. It's hard to understand, I know, but it is the truth. I've been inside and then left the church myself here in Austin, I know it's screwed up and still evolving into a religion worthy of the name in many ways. Yet I have decided to tolerate it and let it evolve. Everyone deserves the right to freedom of religion and there are good people inside the Church of Scientology. I have met them. I can direct you to one who's on Lit if you want.

There are corrupt evil people in the CoS too, enough for me to call it the Co$ online sometimes. However, they are declining in number and influence. I have faith in that anyway. Anonymous's efforts are reminding Scientology a religion cannot flourish in a time of oppression. Your government knows this too and they also know that oppression is wrong. I pray you will one day learn the same. Ditto for Stella, sweetsub, and all the others who need the lesson.

Yes, from a certain point of view you and Anonymous are right about Scientology in its current state. But that is only one way of looking at the present. The future can change and other perspectives besides yours have validity. Not all Muslims are terrorists. Catholics no longer sell indulgences. Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, but is the same true for most Lutherans? Do all Mormons practice polygamy? Scientology can reform and fix itself too. In my celebrity fanfiction, it's going to do exactly that. I hope life will imitate art.

 

[ottohauser1977]

Otto, I have a new story up I think you need to read. "Passion Ch.4" deals with exactly the issue with which you're struggling. Maybe it will open your mind.

On Scientology, I know why you feel about it as you do. However, to the follower of the religion the Church of Scientology is not an evil organization, a criminal scam, crazy or anything like that. It is a religion, the same as Christianity or Judaism is. It's hard to understand, I know, but it is the truth. I've been inside and then left the church myself here in Austin, I know it's screwed up and still evolving into a religion worthy of the name in many ways. Yet I have decided to tolerate it and let it evolve. Everyone deserves the right to freedom of religion and there are good people inside the Church of Scientology. I have met them. I can direct you to one who's on Lit if you want.

There are corrupt evil people in the CoS too, enough for me to call it the Co$ online sometimes. However, they are declining in number and influence. I have faith in that anyway. Anonymous's efforts is reminding Scientology a religion cannot flourish in a time of oppression. Your government knows this too and they also know that oppression is wrong. I pray you will one day learn the same. Ditto for Stella, sweetsub, and all the others who need the lesson.

Yes, from a certain point of view you and Anonymous are right about Scientology in its current state. But that is only one way of looking at the present. The future can change and other perspectives besides yours have validity. Not all Muslims are terrorists. Catholics no longer sell indulgences. Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, but is the same true for most Lutherans? Do all Mormons practice polygamy? Scientology can reform and fix itself too. In my celebrity fanfiction, it's going to do exactly that. I hope life will imitate art.

If it starts behaving more like a faith and less like a mafia, then I will respect it more. But I have seen and read things that convince me that it is still Hubbard's version of La Cosa Nostra, in a very real sense. The Code of Omerta and all.

I hope that your optimism proves to be vindicated. I would like for all faiths to truly be honest and upfront, if they are going to accepted and tolerated by governments and people. I don't like saying "no" to allowing free congress to any religion. But I still see disturbing patterns with Scientology, ones that can't be explained away.

But as a former Scientologist, your comments reassure this lifelong atheist and secular humanist that perhaps there is hope for this wayward cult to rehabilitate itself. Some silver lining in that dark cloud, as they say here in the States.

 

[AchtungNight]

Thanks, Otto. I see silver linings in it too. I also see things it's hard to explain away, things I'm forced to tone down for my fiction (the RPF, which I will be dealing with in a future story, is one example). Remember, in reality the CoS would have disintegrated by now if the worst was true. It wouldn't have gained legality in USA, Spain, Australia, South Africa and all the other countries where it's now accepted and once was persecuted. Your country is in their ranks too now, I know about it thanks to you. Funny, I hang out on anti-CoS boards all the time on IMDB and this is the first I've heard about this. I guess people don't like bad news. Heh.

I can't tell you much, I was only inside for a few months. I suggest you PM me if you want the name of a person who can tell you more.

 

[Pure]

murky matters

i've not seen anyone, including otto, propose a def'n of religion that excludes scientology and includes the Catholic church, the SBC, and the Hare Krishnas.

otto says it's a 'syndicate' or 'mafia'. yet evidence is not offered for these emotive terms, and any suggestion how they don't fit the RNC.

if religion is a set of beliefs, esp. about 'transcendent' matters, and its views are supported and enacted in rituals by 'members.', then scientology is a religion, and so is snake handling and jihadism.

i agree with doc that a gov't cannot properly step in with 'you are not a religion' or 'you may not say this, it's crap' or "you may not say this, for it bolsters church officials authority to an improper degree." you cannot differentiate sci fi imaginings from visions of the blessed virgin' or muslims' visions of angels.

THAT SAID, where an organized group, whether or not it is 'religion' has an improper or criminal objective, you can go after it. you can go after a motorcycle "club" like Satan's Choice, without saying 'you are not a club.' One says, 'your objectives and the means taken are criminal.' Scientologists, here, infiltrated certain gov't offices with intent to access or steal documents (supposedly in self defense), but that is illegal. It should be prosecuted, not just the perpetrators, but their Church superiors.

likewise, early on, scientologist/dianetics practitions claimed to cure illnesess like cancer. they were prosecuted, and NOW they declare that the "clearing" (auditing) rituals are religious, and they do not directly claim curativeness.

the issue of money is VERY tricky. for example, obtaining money under false pretences, or by coercion. one has to look at churches who employ all manner of arm twisting; likewise the huge gatherings in stadiums often milk thousands of dollars in an hour. how does one distinguish?

THAT SAID, the gorilla in the room is not scientology, but RICH religious organizations with HUGE business components, e.g. in selling books and tapes and making profits that arent' taxed; in holding millions of dollars in buildings which are NOT places of worship. the solution here is rather drastic, and who knows if it would happen.

TAX everything that is not directly related to worship and ritual, and its immediate setting (building). and let there be maximum guidlines as to how much 'income' is not taxable.

i'm as opposed to 'cults' as the next person, but the problem is that my *enthusiasm* in my group, which you call a 'sect', looks like a 'cult phenomenon' to you. and your enthusiasm at Baptist Bible class looks damn cultish to a unitarian. my devotion to die, if necesary, for my church in missionary work, looks different to me than the radical jihadi's view of dying as 'martyr' in fighting the infidel (US) army.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The problem is, we can't leave it to the government or anyone else to say what's free speech and what's not, what's a religion and what's not. That decision must be left in the hands of the people, which means everyone has to be free to make up his or her mind about scientology.

You can't save people from themselves.

Christianity was a cult once upon a time, and so was Judaism, and Buddhism, and the movement for American independence, and all great religions and movements, and what looks like coercion to an outsider doesn't feel like coercion to a true believer.

As Pure says, as long as they're not committing crimes or advocating them, you can't go after them on legal grounds. Banning scientology otherwise seems like a very tyrranical and arbitrary thing to do. It wouldn't be countenanced here, where even the neonazis' right to assembly is constitutionally protected.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh! I'll just round Scientologists up and shoot them. Then confiscate their wealth for my critics.

DOC

That's total horse shit. Someone always decides, and its usually the power who controls the government.

 

[cloudy]

The problem is, we can't leave it to the government or anyone else to say what's free speech and what's not, what's a religion and what's not. That decision must be left in the hands of the people, which means everyone has to be free to make up his or her mind about scientology.

You can't save people from themselves.

Christianity was a cult once upon a time, and so was Judaism, and Buddhism, and the movement for American independence, and all great religions and movements, and what looks like coercion to an outsider doesn't feel like coercion to a true believer.

As Pure says, as long as they're not committing crimes or advocating them, you can't go after them on legal grounds. Banning scientology otherwise seems like a very tyrranical and arbitrary thing to do. It wouldn't be countenanced here, where even the neonazis' right to assembly is constitutionally protected.

I agree.

Freedom of religion means freedom of religion, not "freedom of whatever I decide is religion."

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Oh! I'll just round Scientologists up and shoot them. Then confiscate their wealth for my critics.

DOC

That's total horse shit. Someone always decides, and its usually the power who controls the government.

You're next.

 

[starrkers]

You're next.

Promise?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

There is a hidden agenda here, posing as a persecuted sect.

Couldn't that be argued for any "religion?" Now, or at one time?

What I LIKE about Scientology is that it points out how religion itself can be, and really, IS, simply fabricated. Someone made this stuff up. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Scientology. Just like L. Ron Hubbard and his sci-fi imagination.

What's BEHIND the religion is what's important. The search for meaning, wholeness, the divine. That has nothing to do with religion. You can find that in your backyard. BUT you can ALSO find it through ANY religion.

Even Scientology.

Even though the concept cracks ME up and all. Different strokes, different folks.

 

[Pure]

i wonder

Selena: What I LIKE about Scientology is that it points out how religion itself can be, and really, IS, simply fabricated. Someone made this stuff up. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Scientology. Just like L. Ron Hubbard and his sci-fi imagination.

This is bit like saying everyone is simply "making up stories": Tolstoy when he wrote War and Peace, your four year old who says there's a monster out there in the back yard at night, and your 16 year old who says she lost her Ipon nano, when in fact she sold it for $25 to score some drugs.

What's BEHIND the religion is what's important. The search for meaning, wholeness, the divine. That has nothing to do with religion. You can find that in your backyard. BUT you can ALSO find it through ANY religion.

This is like saying, "to hear a good story, you may listen to any of the above."

 

[Stella_Omega]

I wonder if Scientology has cast a new light on the formation of myth? After all, millions of people REALLY BELIEVE that evil space beings in Volcanoes are responsible for every mean thing they've ever done or said.They've spent billions of dollars in pursuit of that belief.

Thanks to the Internet, we can learn the Hidden Secret of Scientology-- for the cost of our broadband bill. I wonder if that makes the truth more, or less truthful?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

PURE

E.O. Wilson, the sociobiologist, says religion is an expression of our genes. He's an atheist, by the way.

It follows along behind maternal instincts. Religion is Nature's way of making people altruistic and kind and ethical inspite of themselves.

 

[Liar]

The problem is that religious groups are given special legal priviliges. In general. If that didn't happen, the squabble of what is a "real" religion and not would be much more irrelevant.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

Never happen! I'm God's fair-haired boy.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Selena: What I LIKE about Scientology is that it points out how religion itself can be, and really, IS, simply fabricated. Someone made this stuff up. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Scientology. Just like L. Ron Hubbard and his sci-fi imagination.

This is bit like saying everyone is simply "making up stories": Tolstoy when he wrote War and Peace, your four year old who says there's a monster out there in the back yard at night, and your 16 year old who says she lost her Ipon nano, when in fact she sold it for $25 to score some drugs.

What's BEHIND the religion is what's important. The search for meaning, wholeness, the divine. That has nothing to do with religion. You can find that in your backyard. BUT you can ALSO find it through ANY religion.

This is like saying, "to hear a good story, you may listen to any of the above."

Absolutely.

 

[Shwenn]

What I LIKE about Scientology is that it points out how religion itself can be, and really, IS, simply fabricated. Someone made this stuff up. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Scientology. Just like L. Ron Hubbard and his sci-fi imagination.

I don't think it does that any more than any other religion.

This fact has been evident as long as there have been two religions on earth.

Atheists have been using that argument since long before scientology. If you reject a religion as a lie, then you are agreeing that humans are wont to manufacture religions. The question remains, how can you claim this is true of every religion but your own. On what grounds can you claim that your own religion is an exception?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I don't think it does that any more than any other religion.

This fact has been evident as long as there have been two religions on earth.

Atheists have been using that argument since long before scientology. If you reject a religion as a lie, then you are agreeing that humans are wont to manufacture religions. The question remains, how can you claim this is true of every religion but your own. On what grounds can you claim that your own religion is an exception?

Oh, I agree, in principle. I just think Scientology provides us with a NEW view of it, rather than a long-established religion with a rich, culturally-emeshed history. Because, as a religion, Scientology is essentially in its infancy, its dogma isn't taken as something already long-established and, by some, infallible.

No religion, I think, is exempt.

 

[rgraham666]

As soon as different branches of Scientology start hating one another then we'll know it's a real religion.

 

[3113]

TAX everything that is not directly related to worship and ritual, and its immediate setting (building). and let there be maximum guidlines as to how much 'income' is not taxable.

Why should anything be not taxable unless it's non-profit? I don't see any reason that a place where people worship should be tax free. I mean, if that's the case, if I hold prayer meetings at my house, do I get out of paying my property taxes?

The problem is that religious groups are given special legal priviliges. In general. If that didn't happen, the squabble of what is a "real" religion and not would be much more irrelevant.

Agreed.