The Joy Of Nationalized Healthcare

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=amVFPFBe40Ak&refer=home

THIS WILL BE YOU WHEN NATIONALIZED HEALTHCARE COMES TO TOWN.

 

[Liar]

As opposed to getting shafted the same way by an insurance company?

Big fucking difference.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LIAR

I'll wager it never occurred to you that maybe bureaucrats and politicians can prioritize what they spend money on?

Maybe...say...move junkets to Tahiti to the bottom of the list, then move medication to the top?

I have a theory of government that goes like this: After the taxes are collected the money is stuffed into sacks and taken to the Queen's house. She then gets 24 hours to drag as many sacks of money into her house that she can within the time period. Then the money goes to the prime minister's house and he does the same. At the end of the line is me: I get 30 seconds to collect loose change that fell beneath the seats of the queen's car, but I have to give it back so they can fill bags of money for the next round.

 

[starrkers]

There's nothing stopping him from paying for the treatment himself. Just the govt service isn't going to cover it.

 

[oggbashan]

Whether you are covered by the UK's National Insurance Scheme or a private health insurance scheme there will always be some treatments that could be considered too expensive for their potential benefit to the patient.

NICE (always reminds me of an evil government quango created by C S Lewis in That Hideous Strength) is constantly bashed for not approving particular drugs for general use.

The US's FDA gets similar criticism for delays in approving drugs for use.

Both have to be careful that drugs are not approved before they are proven to be safe - always a relative judgement - and suitable.

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

There's nothing stopping him from paying for the treatment himself. Just the govt service isn't going to cover it.

Yes! He can do that. I'm betting he wont. If people were universally responsible and prudent government healthcare wouldnt be necessary. If people earned enough money government healthcare wouldnt be necessay. If the Sun shone up every dog's ass every day....ditto.

 

[gauchecritic]

So... what was your point again? Let's see if I can infer...

No NHS is better than having an NHS? Naa that's just silly.

All private healthcare means everyone gets every treatment available? Can't be that, that's just not true.

Paying directly out of your own pocket for all health care needs is a better system than everyone paying a minimal amount for universal health care? That's a bit closer I think.

Oh I get it. [chant]You ess hay, you ess hay, you ess hay.[/chant]

or perhaps [groucho]Who needs culture we have all the money.[/groucho] (which china is keeping safe for us)

maybe [ford]History is bunk[/ford] (mainly because we don't got none)

I have it! [baldrick]It's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.[/baldrick]

 

[R. Richard]

So... what was your point again? Let's see if I can infer...

No NHS is better than having an NHS? Naa that's just silly.

All private healthcare means everyone gets every treatment available? Can't be that, that's just not true.

Paying directly out of your own pocket for all health care needs is a better system than everyone paying a minimal amount for universal health care? That's a bit closer I think.

The problem is that healthcare is expensive and, as you point out, not everyone can get every treatment available. If there is a cost associated with treatment, then people tend to ration themselves to really serious illness/conditions. Of course, there are people who die because of the rationing. However, if you have NHS, people tend not to ration. I have read of people in England and Canada being forced to wait so long for treatment, that they may as well have been refused. I do know, for a fact that a lot of Canadians come to the US for treatment that the can't get, at least in a timely fashion in Canada.

One other problem with at least the Cabadian NHS, is that the government decides which drugs to stock. A woman I met couldn't tolerate the 'house brand.' Fortunately, she had the money to come to the US and buy what worked for her.

There is no ideal system. However, if people are forced to pay for at least some of their healthcare, the system is sustainable. If it's free, the sstem isn't sustainable. I read an article about the 'father' of the Canadian sstem admitting that it was running off the edge of a cliff financially.

 

[Techomancer]

You can't make a graph with a single point of data.

Who's consistently got better overall care?

I can find stories about American insurance companies that canceled coverage as soon as they saw claims for cancer drugs. Does that mean that the US throws all it's cancer victims to the curb?

 

[Handprints]

Here is a post from my admittedly unusual first-person experiences of a long list of socialised and private health care systems.

If you think of palliative care for terminal conditions as the ugly end of the spectrum for treatment of chronic conditions, no system does it very well. I have a lot of sympathy for people who feel let down by a system that says "we can't afford to keep you alive." I spent a lot of time and effort banking enough capital to ensure it wouldn't happen to me. However, the socialised medicine system, in my experience, keeps a lot more such people alive for longer than a private-only model. The premise of socialised medicine is that you're not going to judge the system's success by how well it can keep the richest patient alive. I think that's the right way to judge and I don't work in countries that have private-only medical systems (such as the US - sorry, I wouldn't go to a public hospital in many places there unless my life depended on it) unless I'm guaranteed platinum-edged medical insurance as part of the package.

H

 

[Techomancer]

One other problem with at least the Cabadian NHS, is that the government decides which drugs to stock. A woman I met couldn't tolerate the 'house brand.' Fortunately, she had the money to come to the US and buy what worked for her.

FYI - Canadian heathcare doesn't cover drugs. Private insurance covers drugs. It's up the the pharmacy or hospital to supply it and they normally carry both the name brand and the generic.

I've even had doctors write me a script for the specific drug and added "no substitution" so my insurance couldn't insist on a generic.

I really don't get the US position. But go ahead with your way - that's called freedom of choice.

"Americans pay twice as much for heart-bypass surgery as the socialized Canadian system, with no difference in outcome, according to today's issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine in a study funded by American drug company, Pfizer. The research, found that heart bypass surgery costs an average of $10,373 in Canada, compared with $20,673 in the United States. Even though the costs were double in the United States, the rate of complications and death following bypass surgery was similar.

High administrative costs and over treatment are usually blamed for the higher cost in the profit-driven U.S. system. Americans spent $5,635 per capita on health care in 2003, while only $3,003 was spent by Canadians. Health spending accounts for almost 15 per cent of gross domestic product in the U.S. and just under 10 per cent in Canada; while at the same time, all Canadian residents are full covered. In addition, the average Canadian lives 2 years longer than the average American. "
From http://www.canadiancontent.net/commtr/canadian-surgery-costs-half-us-study-shows_783.html

I actually had a hard time finding dollar figures for Canada (go figure) other than this one. At least one I'd quote.

 

[Carnevil9]

Strange how the same people who DON'T trust the government to run things like Gitmo, the Patriot Act, and the war on terror, are perfectly willing to let them run the health care industry.

Personally, I don't want my health care system run by the same people who brought me the Post Office......Carney

 

[DeeZire]

Strange how the same people who DON'T trust the government to run things like Gitmo, the Patriot Act, and the war on terror, are perfectly willing to let them run the health care industry.

Personally, I don't want my health care system run by the same people who brought me the Post Office......Carney

And I don't want my healthcare run by the same people who brought us worthless 'financial instruments'.

I'd like to see a compromise where individuals can opt in to Medicare in exchange for a higher tax rate. That way, private healthcare still exists for the wealthy, and public healthcare serves those who can't afford private rates.

It's estimated that private healthcare skims one third off the top for administration and profit, while the percentage spent on administration in Medicare is under 8. I would rather see my money going to the people who actually do the work than giving it to paper pushers, CEOs and shareholders.

And, regarding the post office, I've had much better luck there than I've had with my cable company, or my phone company, or pretty much any service business thriving under the free market.

 

[Edward Teach]

Strange how the same people who DON'T trust the government to run things like Gitmo, the Patriot Act, and the war on terror, are perfectly willing to let them run the health care industry.

Personally, I don't want my health care system run by the same people who brought me the Post Office......Carney

Actually, most government agencies run things pretty well. What is wrong with the post office? They deliver to everybody in the US, six days a week at fairly reasonable rates. No one else is able to deliver a letter anywhere in the US for 42 cents.

 

[emap]

This is something of an endless circle. You can point out a good reason to not have a government run universal healthcare and somebody else can trot out a good reason to not have a private health care system.

O(h and the reason heart transplant surgeries cost more in the US, because the government doesn't say it's going to get you this much to do this. Well that and the simple fact that malpractice insurance is expensive, every doctor's office and hospital have to have it. if they don't, one malpractice loss, means they are broke and not there anymore.

Course the problem with the insurance, the company likes to toss money at people and have them go away instead of taking it to court and maybe winning or losing. Everytime there is a lawsuit, the doctors or hospitals rates go up. Because of the company practice of just paying now and not going to court, the bad doctors stick around longer than they should, unless they kill somebody of course.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DEE ZIRE

I hate to be the one to tell you, but CABLE and PHONE are monopolies protected by the government. THAT is not free enterprise.

ET AL

The solution to many of our problems is to prioritize our spending, like most people do with their personal finances. It's pretty simple.

If healthcare is our #1 priority, fund it adequately, then move on to #2 on the list. This might be EDUCATION or WHATEVER. Fund everything til the sack of money is empty.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

DEE ZIRE

ET AL

The solution to many of our problems is to prioritize our spending, like most people do with their personal finances. It's pretty simple.

If healthcare is our #1 priority, fund it adequately, then move on to #2 on the list. This might be EDUCATION or WHATEVER. Fund everything til the sack of money is empty.

That's the idea. Priority #1 right now is the economy. Then energy, then health care. Also stopping the waste of the war in Iraq, but it looks like that's been taken care of now. Troops out by 2011.

GM probably wouldn't be going under now if we had national health care.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

As I see it, the issue is ADEQUATE HEALTHCARE. How do we achieve adequate healthcare for everyone. Who gets to piss the money away in the name of healthcare is a collateral issue.

I've opined that the federal government can administer a pool of healthcare plans without being involved in the dispensation of healthcare. That is, your employer sends your benefit money to the federal administrator, you pick a plan that meets your needs, then the government pays the plan with your benefit money and represents you when conflicts arise with the plan. If you want Cadillac coverage, you supplement what your employer contributes. If you require YUGO coverage, you pick a no-frills plan, and your excess benefit money is stored in a medical savings account for when your situation changes.

 

[R. Richard]

Alright, I got some research with names, places, times and situations. Please comment.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

 

[Carnevil9]

Actually, most government agencies run things pretty well. What is wrong with the post office? They deliver to everybody in the US, six days a week at fairly reasonable rates. No one else is able to deliver a letter anywhere in the US for 42 cents.

You're kidding, right? You really think the only funding that the USPS receives is the money they get from selling stamps? HAHAHAHAHAHA... Good one!........Carney

 

[DeeZire]

DEE ZIRE

I hate to be the one to tell you, but CABLE and PHONE are monopolies protected by the government. THAT is not free enterprise.

In my neck of the woods, there are multiple phone companies, multiple cellphone vendors, and cable competes with satellite. They all suck.

 

[Edward Teach]

You're kidding, right? You really think the only funding that the USPS receives is the money they get from selling stamps? HAHAHAHAHAHA... Good one!........Carney

Uh, yeah, pretty much so.

http://www.nalc.org/postal/perform/selfsufficient.html

Now, where did you get your information ?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Was watching TV about Obama's plans

One of the things they're going to do is put all the budgets of ALL the different agencies and departments of the US government online. Then we can see exactly who's spending what on what and how good a job they're doing.

Efficiency geeks can have a field day.

They're also going to appoint a Chief Technology Officer to standardize codes and Internet protocols.

It's about time.

 

[Edward Teach]

Was watching TV about Obama's plans

One of the things they're going to do is put all the budgets of ALL the different agencies and departments of the US government online. Then we can see exactly who's spending what on what and how good a job they're doing.

Efficiency geeks can have a field day.

We need some light on the government for a change.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Alright, I got some research with names, places, times and situations. Please comment.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

Why don't we just ask some Canadians?