dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 11,528
What do you called the younger brother of a Crown Prince? I'm pretty sure there's a name for this position but I can't think of it. It's not the Prince-in-waiting...
Royalty Question - What's It Called
- Thread starter dr_mabeuse
- Start date
dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 11,528
Yeah, but I'm wondering if the position doesn't have a designation, like Crown Prince.
Equinoxe
Not a pod person
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2005
- Posts
- 13,356
I don't believe that there is a generic term specifically for the younger brother of a Crown Prince; specific monarchies do have titles for children who are not next-in-line for the throne, but that obviously depends upon which you're referring to.
It's generally only used to refer to a branch that is no longer in the direct line of succession and not for the younger brother of an heir (who would under many circumstances be the heir to the heir), though.
It's generally only used to refer to a branch that is no longer in the direct line of succession and not for the younger brother of an heir (who would under many circumstances be the heir to the heir), though.
oggbashan
Dying Truth seeker
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 56,017
Wiki has an article on it: Crown Prince
In the United Kingdom the Heir to the Throne is Duke of Cornwall and becomes Prince of Wales later IF he is the son of the ruling Monarch. He is not referred to as a Crown Prince. A younger brother/sister would have a specific title such as Princess Anne, Princess Royal.
It depends whether the Crown Prince is actually the Ruler of the state in question. I think Monaco is ruled by a Crown Prince. France disputes (but not seriously) the right of the Rainers to rule Monaco as an independent state.
If he is, the younger brother would be the Heir presumptive. He is assumed to be the Heir to the Crown Prince until the Crown Prince has a son, or in these more egalitarian days, a daughter.
In most cases the younger son has a specific title.
Og
In the United Kingdom the Heir to the Throne is Duke of Cornwall and becomes Prince of Wales later IF he is the son of the ruling Monarch. He is not referred to as a Crown Prince. A younger brother/sister would have a specific title such as Princess Anne, Princess Royal.
It depends whether the Crown Prince is actually the Ruler of the state in question. I think Monaco is ruled by a Crown Prince. France disputes (but not seriously) the right of the Rainers to rule Monaco as an independent state.
If he is, the younger brother would be the Heir presumptive. He is assumed to be the Heir to the Crown Prince until the Crown Prince has a son, or in these more egalitarian days, a daughter.
In most cases the younger son has a specific title.
Og
Last edited:
cantdog
Waybac machine
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2004
- Posts
- 10,791
It's the rule of next peerage.
Many noble families have many titles. The Duke of Somesuch might also hold the Viscountcy of Whatnot, and be Earl So-and-So, into the bargain.
His eldest son, or his younger brother, might be referred to by the 'next' peerage in rank. Technically, the sons of peers are commoners, but the eldest son might be referred to by the courtesy title Viscount Whatnot, and so on. Prince of Wales is such a title, in its origin.
Lord Peter Death Bredon Wimsey was second son, and his elder brother Duke of Denver. His lordship's title, we understand, was such a courtesy title.
Equinoxe
Not a pod person
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2005
- Posts
- 13,356
In terms of the peerage, yes (but only the immediate heir to a peerage has a specific courtesy title—although all children receive generic courtesy titles—, and which of the current peer's titles is used depends upon tradition), but in terms of the Monarchy, no. Although titles such as Prince of Wales and Duke of York did merge with the Crown centuries ago, their usage as titles of the Monarch's children is not as courtesy titles. Prince of Wales is a substantive title which is created by the Monarch for the heir apparent (that is, Charles was not Prince of Wales immediately upon the ascension of Queen Elizabeth to the throne and in fact holds the title himself), as is the title for the younger brother of the Prince of Wales, Duke of York—Andrew was made Duke of York in 1986. That is, of course, all as regards modern British usage (older British usage and Continental European usages are a different matter entirely).
Last edited:
oggbashan
Dying Truth seeker
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 56,017
Lord Peter was not Heir Presumptive to the Duke of Denver once Denver's son was born.
"All the sons of Dukes, except the eldest have the title "Lord" before their Christian name and family surname. The daughters have the title of "Lady" before their Christian name and family surname."
Lady Troubridge: The Book of Etiquette 1926
The same applies to sons, not the eldest, and daughters of a Marquis.
Younger sons of Earls have the title "Honourable"; daughters "Lady" before their Christian name and family surname.
All sons and daughters of Viscounts and Barons have the title "The Honourable" before their Christian name and family surname.
Og
oggbashan
Dying Truth seeker
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 56,017
Prince Charles was just that - "Prince Charles" until after Her Majesty became Queen when he took the heir presumptive's title of "Duke of Cornwall". He was invested by the Queen as Prince of Wales in a special ceremony at Caernarvon Castle.
Og
Equinoxe
Not a pod person
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2005
- Posts
- 13,356
Exactly. I believe the Scottish title of Duke of Rothesay also passed immediately to him upon his becoming heir apparent.
oggbashan
Dying Truth seeker
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 56,017
There you go, Zoot, it's always more complex than it needs to be, no matter what it is.
And we've just shown the UK system. Other countries have different systems and different traditions.
Og
3113
Hello Summer!
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Posts
- 13,823
Tell me about it. Zoot, if you're going for a historical story that takes place in France or Russia before their respective revolutions you're going to find it's awfully messy. Those places gave everyone and their brothers titles. The British Monarchy is actually one of the most sane in that titles only went to the eldest son and/or the first tier (kids of the king). Not to every kid on down the ladder leaving you with a lot of "prince this" and "prince thats" running around as well as dukes and barons.
dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 11,528
There you go, Zoot, it's always more complex than it needs to be, no matter what it is.
Screw it. I'll just make something up. They're already in a fictional country.
How about Prince Jr.?
G
Guest
Guest
The younger brother formerly known as Prince?
Xelebes
Little Blue Alien
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2003
- Posts
- 13,068
Little Prince?
Equinoxe
Not a pod person
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2005
- Posts
- 13,356
Oh, the situation in France is quite simple really. You have the famille du roi, which consists of the King, any of his siblings, any of his children, and any of the children of his heir apparent. The children of the King are generically styled fils or fille de France and his grandchildren petit-fils or petite-fille de France; more specifically, the eldest son is styled Monsieur le Dauphin, the eldest daughter Madame Royale, and and the rest of the King's children are simply titled Monsieur or Madame. The titles duc d'Anjou, duc de Bourgogne, and duc de Berry were also created (multiple times) for members of the royal family: duc d'Anjou in particular was generally created for the second son of the King or the Dauphin. Then you have the princes du sang, legitimate male-line descendants of a King who are not any of the above, who of course belong to cadet branches of the House of Bourbon. These are most significantly the prince de Condé, the duc d'Orléans, and the comte de Soissons; there was also a cadet branch of the House of Bourbon-Condé which was titled prince de Conti. The prince de Condé was also duc de Bourbon and duc d'Enghien, and the duc d'Orléans was also duc de Valois, duc de Nemours, duc de Chartres, duc de Châtellerault, and duc de Montpensier. The premier prince du sang, styled Monsieur le Prince, was the prince de Condé until the early 18th century when that honour changed hands to the duc d'Orléans.
Very simple.
Germany is even worse. Scandinavian royal titles truly are quite simple, though, for the most part—especially those in Norway (there is the King/Queen, the Crown Prince/Princess, and then there are Princes and Princesses).
voluptuary_manque
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2007
- Posts
- 30,841
"Call me Mister Jefferson! That is my name." T. Jefferson on the subject of how the President of the United States should be addressed.
3113
Hello Summer!
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Posts
- 13,823
Poor John Adams got himself into a lot of trouble (smear campaigns called him a royalist) because he wanted to give the U.S. president a title and, bulldog that he was when it came to arguments, wouldn't give the idea up. He wanted the president to be referred to as "Your excellency" or something like that. His logic was that since it was an unpaid position (which is was back then), the president should be at least compensated with a title of respect.
His ideas were roundly rejected, and George Washington agreed. I'm awful glad, myself. Imagine calling Bush "Your Excellency"!
Last edited:
Equinoxe
Not a pod person
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2005
- Posts
- 13,356
Poor John Adams got himself into a lot of trouble (smear campaigns called him a royalist) because he wanted to give the U.S. president a title and, bulldog that he was when it came to arguments, wouldn't give the idea up. He wanted the president to be referred to as "Your excellency" or something like that. His logic was that since it was an unpaid position (which is was back then), the president should be at least compensated with a title of respect.
His ideas were roundly rejected, and George Washington agreed. I'm awful glad, myself. Imagine calling Bush "Your Excellency"!
The specific title that Adams wanted for the office was His Highness the President of the United States and protector of their liberties—and the Senate actually voted in favour of it.
Imagine Bush being "... and protector of their liberties"!
3113
Hello Summer!
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Posts
- 13,823
I'd want to stop at "His Highness"!
G
Guest
Guest
TheeGoatPig
There is no R in my name
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
- Posts
- 13,163
I would have had trouble calling him "Mr President."
Similar threads
