Is initiative a four letter word?

[VelvetDarkness]

Master says that I don't show much initiative and he would like me to do this more. It's true that I'm one of those annoying people who says 'whatever you want' when asked if I have a preference. It is the truth though, not a desire to shy away from expressing a genuine opinion. I'm almost always equally happy with either option presented and I do speak up when I'm not. When I do try to initiate sex or show initiative during play, it always feels forced and jars with my natural submissiveness. At the same time, I know how frustrating it is for L to constantly have the onus upon him to initiate things and direct them. I can also see why he would like to be surprised by me and to be able to lie back and let me get on with it sometimes. I really can't understand why I'm hitting such a brick wall with this but he's been asking me to make more of an effort with initiative for a while now and I haven't really changed much.

How do other pyls and particularly TPE slaves feel about this? What about PYL's? Where is the line drawn between a little initiative and the dreaded TFTB?

 

[Primalex]

It's simple: He told you what you are supposed to do. If you can't do it, it's no different than if he would ask you to thrust a needle into your tit and you are not a pain slut. You need to figure out the way how to deal with it.

 

[Netzach]

I'm the same way, I'm exhausted by decisions on details I don't care much about and I'm energized by any decision I'm invested in.

I suggest making lists. Favorite places to get food, best order to get things done, etc. Then you can default to suggestions. I know I like that, sometimes I just want to be surprised.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Sometimes, we masters get irritated at the flip-side traits that often go hand in hand with the things we like in a person.

Sounds like this might be going on here.

 

[ataxia.girl]

It has been a long standing complaint of my husband that i do not take initiative. Since incorporating D/s into our relationship i have actually begun to take more initiative simply by making myself available in a more flirtatious way and being willing to put myself out there and be rejected if he isn't in the mood. Before when everything was strictly vanilla i could not bear the rejection of coming onto him and then having him not want to have "marital relations" with me. Now i touch him, lean over his chair in such a way, smile, kiss, tease etc pretty much all the time. i try to give little indicators that i am "in the mood". He honestly doesn't take me that often these days, once a week maybe but the flirting is still fun and i still enjoy demonstrating to him that i am very happily available and desiring to play all the time.

Several times i have initiated a bj while he has been watching TV or something. He usually lets me get started. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but its always fun. If he doesn't want that and just wants a kiss or for me to sit next to him i don't get my feelings hurt. i have learned to enjoy overtly offering myself and being content with whatever he decides to choose from the menu. Its sort of like do you just give him the menu and make him read and choose (or worse create the menu every time) or do you go ahead and roll out the dessert tray with a little sales pitch and some sampling and then be okay with it if he decides that well... actually... no dessert tonight.

This is not how i am or how i want to be with my Daddy at all. i actually think one of the reasons i am able to go ahead and be sexy-woman sub with my husband is because i have my little girl-never have to initiate with Daddy.

 

[Primalex]

Good girl.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can only speak from our perspective. In my pre-slave days, I was like you, fairly easy going. The previous serious relationship I had resulted in many discussions about why I was happy with whatever...he would suggest we go for a ride...I loved the idea. He would then ask if we should go up in the mountains or along the coast road...I loved both so it didn't make any difference to me...he hated that. When I started with F I thought it would be easier because he would expect me to let him make the decisions in such matters. Wrong!! He explained that if I didn't make a choice I was in a way not showing appreciation for his generosity in rewarding me with the opportunity to choose occasionally, nor was it respectful to not accept his offer to choose.

As to sex, I was a lot more forthcoming in my pre-slave days as it is how I am due to my libido. I tried to supress it when F and I got together and he decided he didn't want that. Like many men, as a Master he liked to know he was desired and wanted, and that proven by my irresistable urge to initiate. He explained he was able to refuse if he wished, and sometimes he has when he felt I had not earned his attention, but overall he is usually pleased to have me take steps to initiate sex. It is good he does as there are many times it is not a matter of my wishing to resist, quite the opposite.

Catalina

 

[00Syd]

I also have a hard time making decisions, and "I don't know" or "whatever you want" has pretty much been my default my whole life. P doesn't like that. He knows that I am no where near ready for him to make all of the decisions yet, and so gives me choices or asks my preference. When I say "I don't know" he sees it as dismissive of his allowing me to have a choice when he could very well just tighten the reigns and not give me a choice at all. It seems similar to Catalina's situation with F, if I don't make a choice it's not showing appreciation for the opportunity, and disrespectful to him.

So, I am not allowed to say "I don't know" anymore. If the reason I can't choose is because both options are good to me, I can say so, but he really wants me to make a choice. If he asks me how I'm feeling, I need to really think through how I feel, and suppress the instinct to immediately say "I don't know." I still say it sometimes, but I think I've been getting much better at sorting through my thoughts and giving an opinion or making a choice.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I think there may be a strong source of indecision within the way some of us grew up. I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but in my case I had trouble knowing what I wanted because as a child it was a matter of survival to always anticipate what everyone around me wanted. I share this, I suspect, with many people who grew up in alcoholic or otherwise abusive environments.

It took deliberate, constant and long-term practice to be able to find my own preferences and opinions as an adult, and I'm still learning. Still, there's a learned helplessness thing that creeps in sometimes, even as a domme, where if I have an idea or try something and it gets an ambivalent response, I'm inclined to just give up, rather than try something else. So obviously I'm still working on it.

I do find that in a negotiation I want to hear some very distinct hunger to go particular places; I like that kind of initiative. If someone doesn't know what would get them off, or gives me ambivalence and wishy-washyness, I get frustrated. That's a sort of initiative I rather demand.

bj

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Well as usual, I'm glad I'm not the only one with this issue. It's strange because, when it comes to pre-emptive domestic service, I'm, always fairly sure of my boundaries and happy to be able to make L's life easier. With sexual initiative however, I find myself lacking in confidence, even though he has encouraged me to work on this. It just feels forced and false and I cannot understand why I consistently fail to rationalise it in the same way I do with domestic chores and such.

 

[Netzach]

I'm trying to think of things to tell people who just aren't compulsive initiators that might help them find their inner initiator.

Duhhhh....really, I'm coming up blank. It's like trying to explain how to have innate facility with math or something.

 

[eastern sun]

He is far more pleased by my free expression of desires than simple obedience in response to his. In fact, he gets turned on by the fact that I'm turned on. And he likes that I'm wanton and unpredictable. He does not necessarily view my sexual appetite as a violation of my submission, unless I get so caught up in myself that I miss the cues he's giving me. Then I have to acknowledge I've gone too far.

Because the nature of my sexual desires is rather unconventional, though, it took me a long time to be comfortable expressing them without inhibitions. The trust we have built over years has allowed both of us to dig deeper and discover the things that really excite us (rather than the things we think should excite us). Taking the risk of expressing what you want, in any relationship, means your partner might not go along with it (for reasons that have nothing to do with you). Because submission softens the ego, it has allowed me to reconcile that "rejection" without incurring huge ego-damage and a loss of self-esteem.

And like others who have posted, I was crippled for a long time by an inability to make decisions and stick with them. Like others too, I have discovered that when he asks for my opinion, he's really asking for my opinion; and if I'm not sure what I think in any given moment, I take the time to figure it out.

There was a period that I spent with a crazy smile on my face, and a puppydog pant, waiting to be told what to do. He would get incredibly frustrated by my inactivity. And I would feel like he wasn't really appreciating my willingness to serve him.

I remember the moment I figured out that I wasn't really serving him by waiting to be told what to do. I needed to engage in a far more complex and difficult enterprise which included learning him, learning myself, acknowledging limitations, trying to stretch them, and all the while checking to see if I was on the right track.

Life is full of trial and error. If we embrace it, we'll learn what works.

 

[BiBunny]

I tend to have a hard time making BIG decisions because I waffle back and forth. The good part about it, though, is that once I finally do make up my mind, a herd of wild horses couldn't drag me away from doing what I know has to be done. I've learned to cope a good bit as far as being indecisive. "Where do you want to eat?" is a good one. Normally, I'll just pick three or four places that sound good and say, "Wanna help me narrow it down from there?" It works, and it doesn't place the entire decision on any one person.

Sexually, I can only initiate with one person, because he has never turned me down or made me feel bad about my sexuality for coming onto him. Bless his soul. It's an odd thing that a man will complain about most women not wanting to have sex, but when they find a woman like me whose sex drive is equal to or greater than theirs, they turn into assholes if I want to play, and they don't. It's like calling me a nympho and accusing me of using them for sex is a good way to hide the fact that me wanting sex more than them makes them feel less masculine or whatever.

As far as taking initiative in a relationship, I generally have no problems doing it. If I care about a person, I want to make him/her happy. Once I learn what he/she likes, I don't have to sit around and wait for instructions (as a pyl) or requests (as a PYL). I just do what it takes to see a smile on the face of the person I care about.

 

[ataxia.girl]

With sexual initiative however, I find myself lacking in confidence, even though he has encouraged me to work on this. It just feels forced and false and I cannot understand why I consistently fail to rationalise it in the same way I do with domestic chores and such.

Are you able to do things which are maybe not overtly sexual but help lead into more sexual initiation... like maybe rubbing his shoulders while he works at the computer and then kissing his neck or kneeling at his feet and giving a foot massage without him having to ask. i have found it easier to do very small things which merely make me feel more available and immediate to him than to try and figure out how to jump all over him because that just isn't me. i do it occasionally when the mood really does strike me but its really quite a rare event. But even touching his arm when telling him that dinner is ready can be done in a way that says "i'm really hot for you right now".

Wondering if finding some things in between domestic and sexual service might help you bridge the gap a bit and get more confidence.

 

[00Syd]

I'm trying to think of things to tell people who just aren't compulsive initiators that might help them find their inner initiator.

Duhhhh....really, I'm coming up blank. It's like trying to explain how to have innate facility with math or something.

It really is a learned quality for a lot of people. There are some things I'm good at initiating, and some things I'm not, and I'm working on them. Making myself initiate some things is akin to remembering some distant high school class if Occam's razor comes up in conversation.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's an odd thing that a man will complain about most women not wanting to have sex, but when they find a woman like me whose sex drive is equal to or greater than theirs, they turn into assholes if I want to play, and they don't. It's like calling me a nympho and accusing me of using them for sex is a good way to hide the fact that me wanting sex more than them makes them feel less masculine or whatever.

LOL, oh don't they just?!! I remember an incident when I was in my teens and dating a young French man. We had been dating for a while, friends before that, then one night after we had been out and were parked outside my parents house, one thing lead to another and we did just about everything but have intercourse. He was just as into it as I was so imagine my shock when at the last minute he pulled away and told me how bad I was for allowing him to take such liberties and that he was seriously considering going inside to tell my parents what I had done!! ROFLMAO, I much preferred the response of the young hunk I raped (yes, raped, though he wasn't complaining) on my doorstep to celebrate finally coming to terms with my divorce. He was very appreciative and wanted to know if we could continue to do this so he could learn even more. What was a girl to say?!That lead to many happy months of fun and beginning to live again.

Catalina

 

[ataxia.girl]

On the other hand if you're M/s TPE isn't it sort of his responsibility to train you and help you be what he wants? Besides just telling you he wants you to initiate more what does he do to help you be successful at it? Are there consequences for not doing it? Does he give examples of what kinds of things he is looking for or tell you what he fantasizes about you doing? When you do it and it feels forced does that still satisfy him? Does he praise\critique and encourage you to try again? What feedback do you get from him to your efforts?

i'm reminded of a little online relationship i recently had with Daddy's approval where the Dom was displeased i initiated so little (read not at all). That wasn't why i was in the relationship. To a large degree BDSM appeals to me because i need to be "taken" and owned as an object not necessarily to actively serve. To ask me to initiate was directly at odds with why i was there in the first place. It is, of course, different in my marriage because we were vanilla first and have added a layer of D/s over the top so there have been many compromises.

i would guess though that if the fundamental driving force is to serve in whatever capacity then that has to include initiating if that is what he wants. i do think it is the Master's responsibility to train and foster this however.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

He is far more pleased by my free expression of desires than simple obedience in response to his. In fact, he gets turned on by the fact that I'm turned on. And he likes that I'm wanton and unpredictable. He does not necessarily view my sexual appetite as a violation of my submission, unless I get so caught up in myself that I miss the cues he's giving me. Then I have to acknowledge I've gone too far.

Because the nature of my sexual desires is rather unconventional, though, it took me a long time to be comfortable expressing them without inhibitions. The trust we have built over years has allowed both of us to dig deeper and discover the things that really excite us (rather than the things we think should excite us). Taking the risk of expressing what you want, in any relationship, means your partner might not go along with it (for reasons that have nothing to do with you). Because submission softens the ego, it has allowed me to reconcile that "rejection" without incurring huge ego-damage and a loss of self-esteem.

And like others who have posted, I was crippled for a long time by an inability to make decisions and stick with them. Like others too, I have discovered that when he asks for my opinion, he's really asking for my opinion; and if I'm not sure what I think in any given moment, I take the time to figure it out.

There was a period that I spent with a crazy smile on my face, and a puppydog pant, waiting to be told what to do. He would get incredibly frustrated by my inactivity. And I would feel like he wasn't really appreciating my willingness to serve him.

I remember the moment I figured out that I wasn't really serving him by waiting to be told what to do. I needed to engage in a far more complex and difficult enterprise which included learning him, learning myself, acknowledging limitations, trying to stretch them, and all the while checking to see if I was on the right track.

Life is full of trial and error. If we embrace it, we'll learn what works.

This is really well said, particularly the bolded section. It sounds like you've gotten to a truly intelligent approach to that dynamic.

Thanks for expressing that.

bj

 

[catalina_francisco]

i would guess though that if the fundamental driving force is to serve in whatever capacity then that has to include initiating if that is what he wants. i do think it is the Master's responsibility to train and foster this however.

I think training in this circumstance is not very conducive. It is like telling somone who is just not that sexual that you will teach them how to act as if they are the opposite....you can teach them to act it perhaps, but to feel it is another thing. Most PYL's do not want an illusion of initiation just to please, they want to feel it is just as necessary or natural to the pyl, if that makes sense.

Catalina

 

[ataxia.girl]

I can also see why he would like to be surprised by me and to be able to lie back and let me get on with it sometimes.

You know what... you can do this. If i did it in an 8 year frigid vanilla marriage you can do it with someone you are hot for whether they are your Master or not. Even if it feels awkward and doesn't get you off and you have to cringe your way through it you are his slave and its what he wants.

Be a tigress for an evening. Watch that movie "What Lies Beneath" where there is a good scene where she initiates.

It gets easier.

And omfg when you start out on top doing your thing being all "in charge" and then he suddenly turns the tables and takes you violently. mmmmmmm so wonderful. i love when i initiate but then he is so overcome with desire for me he suddenly has to take me right now his way.

This it not to say i haven't gritted my teeth all the way through, especially in the beginning. i did. i have 2 ways i can choose to look at it. One makes it hard, the other much easier. 1) He is weak and needs to know i desire him so he needs me to initiate. Yuck! 2) i love him and want to demonstrate to him how much i desire him by initiating sex, i want to show him how his mere presence drives me to be sexual.

i think that's it for my unsolicited advice. i know you were looking for comments of those actually in TPE relationships but i couldn't help myself.

Good Luck!

 

[ataxia.girl]

I think training in this circumstance is not very conducive. It is like telling somone who is just not that sexual that you will teach them how to act as if they are the opposite....you can teach them to act it perhaps, but to feel it is another thing. Most PYL's do not want an illusion of initiation just to please, they want to feel it is just as necessary or natural to the pyl, if that makes sense.

Catalina

Well yes it makes perfect sense but i'm not sure how just telling someone you want them to feel another way is much, if any, better.

 

[myinnerslut]

i get almost embarrassed if i initiate something and its pointed out. im more likely to go the less interactive route of telling Master that im horny, that id like to do something, as opposed to jumping him and starting sex. i will ask him permission to suck his cock if i want to, but i wont just take it in my mouth.

when it comes to kissing, im much more likely to initiate the action. i have been known to do this at a bad time (for instance while hes reading on the computer), but sometimes its been the hint that i was in the mood for more.

while initiative may be what you are supposed to find, its important to remember that it could still be a bad time. that he still might not want to. in those situations, i find myself feeling bad for interrupting him, but in the end it gets filed into the "what Master wants when he wants it" folder in my brain. lets face it, he is better at reading me then i am at reading myself. on the other hand, i read him really well, but i still pick bad times sometimes.

 

[rida]

I could never decide where to go eat and still cannot, but I never had problem showing initiative with men, especially if I don't care about them.
If they turn me down, it was disappointing but since I am not invested emotionally, it doesn't matter much.

When I got married, I was crazy for my Husband: if it was up to me I'd jump his bone over and over and over. He was struggling with his sexuality back then (previous wife did some damage in the self confidence department) and he flat out told me that I was too sexual and to cut it off. Neither to say it hurt worse than a knife in my belly and I adjusted to it by not initiate much. Fast forward few more years and we are trying for a baby and he tells me that when I initiate it feels like a chore. That killed any desire I had to initiate. Ever.

Of course after that the "you never show any initiative and desire for me" started rolling out of his mouth. Men

It took few more years of unhappiness and struggles but we are now in a very happy place and I can initiate things again (although I confess I still have a moment of fear of rejection to overcome). Sometime I just kiss him passionately, sometime I just go kneel at his side and look up with puppy eyes, some other I mention that I could do with a good fuck (now what i get might be totally different, but that's his prerogative). And if he tells me that is not a good time or he is not in the proper mood, I just accept it and depending on how horny I feel I ask if he does not mind me taking care of myself.

Hubby and I are not TPE, nor vanilla. The TFTB issue came out a few time at the beginning of the D/s chapter of our relationship. Ultimately I think that since he has the power to say no, it is a moot point: I can try to get my way, he as the power to decide whether to indulge me or not.

As many above have eloquently expressed there are many ways to show initiative: if you don't feel comfortable being physically sexually aggressive or voicing your desires, you can do it in more subtle ways, by fixing a particularly sexy dinner, offer a massage and wonder off to his manly bits. And if the problem is that you don't really feel the desire to initiate because you don't feel it ... well, look at it as service that is required to you.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

There was a period that I spent with a crazy smile on my face, and a puppydog pant, waiting to be told what to do. He would get incredibly frustrated by my inactivity. And I would feel like he wasn't really appreciating my willingness to serve him.

I remember the moment I figured out that I wasn't really serving him by waiting to be told what to do. I needed to engage in a far more complex and difficult enterprise which included learning him, learning myself, acknowledging limitations, trying to stretch them, and all the while checking to see if I was on the right track.

Life is full of trial and error. If we embrace it, we'll learn what works.

I think I may still be in my 'puppydog' phase as you call it. I'm so service oriented these days that when it comes to initiative my brain just spits the word back out of my head with a readout that says 'Does not compute.'

The bolded part above was especially insightful and something that I hadn't connected up the dots in order to comprehend. It's a very important truth however and possibly the crux of the matter, certainly for L and I as a couple. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

Are you able to do things which are maybe not overtly sexual but help lead into more sexual initiation... like maybe rubbing his shoulders while he works at the computer and then kissing his neck or kneeling at his feet and giving a foot massage without him having to ask. i have found it easier to do very small things which merely make me feel more available and immediate to him than to try and figure out how to jump all over him because that just isn't me. i do it occasionally when the mood really does strike me but its really quite a rare event. But even touching his arm when telling him that dinner is ready can be done in a way that says "i'm really hot for you right now".

Wondering if finding some things in between domestic and sexual service might help you bridge the gap a bit and get more confidence.

I have been doing things like this. Little things like always ensuring I'm wearing some sexy, matching underwear, kissing him more and trying to be a bit more seductive when doing everyday tasks. It's a gut-churningly unnatural way for me to behave but Master seems to be appreciating it. Sometimes he misses it completely though, because I'm being too subtle. Having said that, a few days ago I was emptying the washing machine and instead of crouching beside it, as I usually do, I kept my legs straight and stuck my ass in the air. That worked and service of a different nature ensued. I am trying to bridge the gap in small ways.

On the other hand if you're M/s TPE isn't it sort of his responsibility to train you and help you be what he wants? Besides just telling you he wants you to initiate more what does he do to help you be successful at it? Are there consequences for not doing it? Does he give examples of what kinds of things he is looking for or tell you what he fantasizes about you doing? When you do it and it feels forced does that still satisfy him? Does he praise\critique and encourage you to try again? What feedback do you get from him to your efforts?

I guess so but I think he feels that having to lead me by the hand with this defeats the whole object. It's like Cat said really, he wants it to come from me because I feel horny and want to show him how attracted to him I am. I'm sure this issue isn't insurmountable and it's something I really want to be able to improve on. He does let me know when I've pleased him but he's not really one to dish out criticism when he can see that I'm making an effort.

Thanks for all the great feedback guys, I'm really glad I posted this thread, it's very interesting reading.

 

[catalina_francisco]

i get almost embarrassed if i initiate something and its pointed out. im more likely to go the less interactive route of telling Master that im horny, that id like to do something, as opposed to jumping him and starting sex.

That's the wonderful thing about diversity. For me, I find it much easier to initiate and see how it is received than I ever would having to vocalise how much and what I want as a means of answering my physical desires...that sort of demand usually sees me taking a major emotional swing which can end in serious tears or worse, and often a complete loss of any desire for sex altogether....a real cold shower effect.

Catalina