women who don't fit those molds; new paradigms (civil, please)

[Safe_Bet]

Okay, this is where I get off the bus.

I specifically said that the terms "masculine" and "feminine" are not pejorative, at least for the purposes of this thread. I don't think they're innately pejorative anyway - that frame seems to be coming from you and Amy. I've never considered lesbians "imitation men", any more than I've considered gay men "imitation women".

You seem to be saying that you feel stigmatized by an identity that is very uncommon, and yet to label it as uncommon is to stigmatize it somehow. How, then, are we to discuss it?

I suggested naming it by the hormones that science suggests drive some of the most recognizable traits. But as those hormones are an essence of the biological expression of gender, then it seems pointless to replace one word with another. And substituting "masculine" for "male" and "feminine" for "female" at least implies that we are talking about a spectrum of traits that don't always correspond to the male/female binary division.

I don't think my maleness diminishes your femaleness. I don't think my femaleness diminishes your femaleness. I wish you'd both extend me the same courtesy.

Huck I believe you. YOU don't mean them in a pejorative fashion. But that makes you "The Exception". "The Rule" is vastly different. (BTW - thank you for being that way.)

I do disagree that all masculine and feminine behaviors are solely based upon hormonal levels. To give that credence would be like saying that if a man loses his testicles from an accident he becomes a woman. It just ain't the case.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MATRIARCH

Lemme tell you about boxes.

So many people here pray to God about me that I just got noticed that Hell is now certain for me.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Huck I believe you. YOU don't mean them in a pejorative fashion. But that makes you "The Exception". "The Rule" is vastly different. (BTW - thank you for being that way.)

I do disagree that all masculine and feminine behaviors are solely based upon hormonal levels. To give that credence would be like saying that if a man loses his testicles from an accident he becomes a woman. It just ain't the case.

Thank you.
And I don't think we are determined entirely by our hormones, either. Just that there is a biological component to it. How that biological component is actually expressed through behavior has a lot more to do with cultural environment, I think.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

I'm a hybrid. I burn masculine and feminine fuel and I like it that way. I shift gears frequently between the two, and it's awesome to be able to do so. I would have operated on this system now or in any other time and with style and ease. I don't feel defined or confined by any labels or body styles.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]
The exercise of stereotyping is futile, pointless and divisive.
I try not to do it.

And yet, you chose your screen name. And your sig starts, "Menopausal Teenager and unofficial Auntie to the AH playroom." I'm not saying you're stereotyping yourself, but you clearly appeal to maternal images in the way you present your online persona. "Matriarch" is so loaded with connotations that forms of the word are used to name female-led societies and families.

Others have pointed out the importance of role models. Aren't those something like aspirational stereotypes?

I understand that words used to label someone can diminish or enhance that person's identity, depending on one's point of view. Nonetheless, if we're looking at new female archetypes, how are we to describe them? We compare and contrast with other, more familiar archetypal images. Don't we?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Others have pointed out the importance of role models. Aren't those something like aspirational stereotypes?

I understand that words used to label someone can diminish or enhance that person's identity, depending on one's point of view. Nonetheless, if we're looking at new female archetypes, how are we to describe them? We compare and contrast with other, more familiar archetypal images. Don't we?

Yes, especially us who deal in words...

And, perhaps, we can sort out what are the archetypes, from what are merely stereotypes, something that has just occurred to me.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yes, especially us who deal in words...

And, perhaps, we can sort out what are the archetypes, from what are merely stereotypes, something that has just occurred to me.

Progress, progress. Now we go from complaint to constructive thought. Good, very good.

Archetype, hmmm.

Can we differentiate between Matriachal and maternal? And if we can, is one bad and the other good? And what does that do to the dichotomy of patriarchal and paternal? Is one of them good and the other bad? If so, why? This is going to be fun!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Progress, progress. Now we go from complaint to constructive thought. Good, very good.

Archetype, hmmm.

Can we differentiate between Matriachal and maternal? And if we can, is one bad and the other good? And what does that do to the dichotomy of patriarchal and paternal? Is one of them good and the other bad? If so, why? This is going to be fun!

Matriachal and patriarchal are elements of social systems-- maternal and paternal are interpersonally connective elements, how's that?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Matriachal and patriarchal are elements of social systems-- maternal and paternal are interpersonally connective elements, how's that?

MWAH! I like it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

VM

I found the perfect avatar for you.

 

[matriarch]

And yet, you chose your screen name. And your sig starts, "Menopausal Teenager and unofficial Auntie to the AH playroom." I'm not saying you're stereotyping yourself, but you clearly appeal to maternal images in the way you present your online persona. "Matriarch" is so loaded with connotations that forms of the word are used to name female-led societies and families.

Others have pointed out the importance of role models. Aren't those something like aspirational stereotypes?

I understand that words used to label someone can diminish or enhance that person's identity, depending on one's point of view. Nonetheless, if we're looking at new female archetypes, how are we to describe them? We compare and contrast with other, more familiar archetypal images. Don't we?

I agree completely.
Our perceptions of ourselves, and how we portray how we see ourselves to others is completely constrained by the language we have available.

I chose the title 'matriarch' to convey the fact that I am an older/mature female (biologically), who, at that time, lived in a home inhabited by males.

'Menopausal Teenager 'also lets people know that I am a biological female of a certain age - None of us can escape the inevitability of time - and the 'teenager' part implies that I have a mind open to energetic and fun pursuits.

We all do it, we have no choice. The language that is available to us completely restricts the way we present ourselves to the world.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree completely.
Our perceptions of ourselves, and how we portray how we see ourselves to others is completely constrained by the language we have available.

I chose the title 'matriarch' to convey the fact that I am an older/mature female (biologically), who, at that time, lived in a home inhabited by males.

'Menopausal Teenager 'also lets people know that I am a biological female of a certain age - None of us can escape the inevitability of time - and the 'teenager' part implies that I have a mind open to energetic and fun pursuits.

We all do it, we have no choice. The language that is available to us completely restricts the way we present ourselves to the world.

Which leaves many of us existing outside of language, if that were completely true.

But luckily any single title or descriptor can be modified, and new descriptors can be coined...

 

[CeriseNoire]

Which leaves many of us existing outside of language, if that were completely true.

But luckily any single title or descriptor can be modified, and new descriptors can be coined...

Does it really matter if we live outside of language? I find that when people have trouble defining me, they seem much more bothered than I am.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Does it really matter if we live outside of language? I find that when people have trouble defining me, they seem much more bothered than I am.

Good point. Must we label? Can't we just hug and get on with life?

 

[xssve]

Language is a crude tool, and inherently coercive. I love it, but there are better uses for a tongue sometimes.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Does it really matter if we live outside of language? I find that when people have trouble defining me, they seem much more bothered than I am.

Some days it's fine, some days not so much fine.

My point is that people tend to define others regardless. And it seems to me that the most easily accessed definitions for "woman" are inadequate to the needs of women.

 

[impressive]

Language is a crude tool, and inherently coercive. I love it, but there are better uses for a tongue sometimes.

Gawds, yes.

<--- Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly wants that better-used tongue right now.

 

[xssve]

Words fail me.

 

[CeriseNoire]

Some days it's fine, some days not so much fine.

My point is that people tend to define others regardless. And it seems to me that the most easily accessed definitions for "woman" are inadequate to the needs of women.

In my experience though, I think the same goes when men are being defined.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Gawds, yes.

<--- Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly wants that better-used tongue right now.

WHAT are you wearing?

Take it off, right this minute.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

WHAT are you wearing?

Take it off, right this minute.

*snerk*

Just would like to point out that Stella's threadjacking her own serious and civil thread here...

Hey, you did it FIRST...

 

[impressive]

WHAT are you wearing?

Take it off, right this minute.

Well, if you must know, I'm wearing a torn, paint-splattered Comic Relief sweatshirt and yoga pants.

Or, rather, I was a moment ago.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yoga pants are soooo gross.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Reposted from Doc's thread, and I bet he'd love it if he could have that back;

It is an important question, in my mind, and increasingly so with women in the workplace - I'm not at all convinced that a woman who plays the same power games men play is technically an improvement,

It's probably an improvement from her point of view-- simply because she is now able to play the game instead of being a pawn in it.

while to hypothesize that women have some innovative contribution that derives from the perspective of their gender means one has to define, if only roughly, what these differences might be, and bear in mind that they too may contain hidden inefficiencies that might surface in time.

To my mind that "perspective of gender" is a misunderstanding. I think that gender differences are physiological and innate, but not monolithic, we are so very variable.

The roles applied to these differences are cultural. Women have a perspective derived from their enforced role as lesser in society, and our society doesn't value that much...

 

[Stella_Omega]

Even given the variability of women, I still find it easier to work with one in charge than I do with a man. With a woman I am rarely caught up in the dominence games that power male existance. Respectful cooperation is easier when I don't have to climb up on some other guy's chest and jump up and down until it's established that there are aspects of this business where I'm the boss. I think everyone's happier that way.

That would change, to a certain extent, if these cultural roles were less efficiently enforced. You would have more women who would play power trip games more directly with men, and men who would be more comfortable without that. (She said with her tongue in her cheek.) And if xssve is wondering what valuable perspective might come from women-- that's the one, and we've known about it for quite a while, haven't we?

But I would say that it's more a matter of cultural change-- that men used to know how to cooperate that way, as far as I can tell. You can't sail a wooden ship across the Atlantic Ocean when each person on it is backstabbing every other.