Real Deal on ‘Joe the Plumber’ Reveals New Slant

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[Belegon]

It's interesting, but I don't think he was a plant or anything. Just the Republicans jumping at a straw.

But we know what the big, bad wolf will do to a straw house, don't we?

edited to add: BTW, this years Big, Bad Wolf? Not meaning Obama.

To quote Mr. Carville, "It's STILL the economy, stupid!"

 

[sr71plt]

He doesn't even pay the taxes he already owes. He's trying to take a free ride on those who do pay our taxes.

If I was in the Democratic campaign, I'd pin his sorry ass to the wall--and I'd reiterate that, yes, in fact, the Democratic platform is that anyone at all clearing more than $250,000 a year can jolly well carry a bigger share of the burden--and maybe save the rest of us some money by not having to go after him to get what he owes.

I don't see why the Dems are so namby pamby about such things. A preponderance of voters don't make that much. Go directly at them about having a platform that would give them some relief.

 

[xssve]

Sure, it's another one of those astroturfing techniques, I'm sure a deal of soem sort was struck - the FCC is actually investigating the possibility that the Bush administration paid "military experts" to PR the war on network Television. Whattaya know, they investigate something besides titties - ten to one it goes nowhere, of course.

The usual bullshit, in other words - it is an interesting problem however, and there are real people trying to start small businesses
having a hard time finding financing under the Bushco plan of global finance meltdown.

I ran across this article; Cash crunch: small businesses get creative, interesting read, somebody might find it useful.

I'm curious how this might affect the publishing industry - anybody have any anecdotes?

 

[3113]

Is anyone else disturbed by the Sammy Davis, jr. reference?

And don't nail this poor shlub to the wall. He's suffering enough as a "symbol" of the Republican "everyman."

Now, McCain, on the other hand, should be "nailed."

“America didn’t become the greatest nation on earth by spreading the wealth,” he said. “We became the greatest nation by creating new wealth.”

Oh, really? If I were Obama I'd ask, "What wealth did we not spend but create with the Marshall Plan?" We became pretty great by spreading the wealth around there, didn't we. And if spreading the wealth is a bad idea, then why are we doing it in Iraq? And if spending is thought to be a bad idea by republicans, why have they done it for 8 years?

Yeah. Obama put it wrong, though. There is no wealth to spread. Just some to share in hopes that we can keep most of us afloat till better days. Robber barons ran away with the wealth.

 

[sr71plt]

And don't nail this poor shlub to the wall. He's suffering enough as a "symbol" of the Republican "everyman."

Sorry, don't agree. If this "poor shlub" has been avoiding his taxes, he's been riding my back and deserves to be nailed. Doubly so if he went after Obama on a one-on-one as he did to start the whole thing.

Beyond that, the Republican campaign should be made to suck gas on this--so that they'll start actually doing some careful research on the people they use. We're already threatened with an inappropriate VP candidate because they've been winging it.

 

[ottohauser1977]

I love this country, having seen far worse under Honecker in East Germany. Trust me, Bush is awful, yes. So is Palin, from what I can tell. But they're not Honecker, but any means, let alone Hitler. Nor is Obama, for that matter. Though, unlike my fellow Germans, I am no admirer of him.

Life under Communism cured me of the "audacity of hope". The only hope for me is what I seize for myself. That's all the audacity I need.

As for McCain, he's a bit old to be picking an overzealous and underqualified "hockey mom" as his running mate, don't you think?

Still, this isn't tough times. Tough times is life under a one party state, with rationing and Stasi monitoring even your sex life.

Mind you, I was 12 when the Berlin Wall fell, but I remember a few terrible things.

I have a friend with whom I argue about politics frequently. He mentioned Lit with disgust, which intrigued me. So I signed up. We're both German immigrants, but I am not as jaded as Karl. He remembers the order of Communism with some nostalgia. I don't. I often wonder why he came here, if he's so disenchanted with democracy and capitalism.

Though, to be fair, Obama's more like the Christian Democrats than like the Socialists in many ways. American socialism is tame by European standards.

I'm voting for Nader this year, but that's a separate issue. Obama is too corrupt for me, as is McCain. I prefer Nader's honesty and dedication to public service. But, then, unlike Karl, I am a naturalized citizen of the USA, not a citizen of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

I won't worry about who wins that much. McCain is liberal for a Republican, though Palin isn't. And Obama is a touch of a demagogue. Either way, someone will rein in Wall Street's excesses. Though that's all they are. Excesses of capitalism. Even at its worst, capitalism isn't half as corrupt as Communism.

 

[fieryjen]

Otto, welcome to the AH. I sincerely hope I've never sounded like you. I'm getting a little embarrassed for you here.

 

[past_perfect]

Otto, welcome to the AH. I sincerely hope I've never sounded like you. I'm getting a little embarrassed for you here.

Ditto.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

It doesnt matter.

Obama's tax policy is the issue, not Joe.

If Joe was a reporter the issue would still be Obama's plan to fuck small business.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Yeah. Taxes ARE the issue.

Joe the Plumber... Meet Sam the Gas Station Guy.

 

[sr71plt]

It doesnt matter.

Obama's tax policy is the issue, not Joe.

If Joe was a reporter the issue would still be Obama's plan to fuck small business.

And "Joe" (that's not even his real name) is on the TV today admitting that Obama's tax proposals would help him (especially since he isn't really buying that business he doesn't really specialize in).

 

[Stella_Omega]

And "Joe" (that's not even his real name) is on the TV today admitting that Obama's tax proposals would help him (especially since he isn't really buying that business he doesn't really specialize in).

But not on Fox, i bet.

 

[Safe_Bet]

...I'm voting for Nader this year...

Welcome to Dufusland Otto!

 

[jomar]

It doesnt matter.

Obama's tax policy is the issue, not Joe.

If Joe was a reporter the issue would still be Obama's plan to fuck small business.

To the tune of 3% of income over 250k.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

From the link I posted above:

"So I'm fed up with the Republicans. Tax cuts for the rich, the war--all that stuff. The middle class needs help. I'm finally convinced. I'm going for Obama. First time in my life, I tell you."

I asked him about paying higher taxes.

"I don't care about that. If I'm making money, I don't care. I'll pay my taxes. But I'm not going to make any money if the middle-class guy doesn't have money in his pocket to buy my gas or my food. I don't need the big tax cut right now. That's not going to bring the customers into my gas stations."

Joe versus Sam. You could line up economists spouting elegant theories for each side, but the basic arguments can probably be reduced to Joe's and Sam's respective positions on very gut levels. Joe's never made $250,000, but he feels that if he ever reaches that threshold, he shouldn't be "penalized" for his success. He seems to believe that cutting taxes for wealthy individuals somehow serves his current financial interests and his aspirations for the future. Sam's already lived those trickle-down and dream-up Republican talking points but now rejects them with hard-won conviction.

Trickle-down economics doesn't work. Never has.

Maybe we'll get the opportunity to see what "spreading the wealth" can do.

At least for a little while.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Joe the Plumber was once Joe the Alaskan (are you surprised?)

 

[fieryjen]

i dont agree with this, sorry

Look, if you're trying to get your post count up, there are better ways that don't involve you being annoying and asshat-ish.

 

[shereads]

What a load of horse shit.

He isn't a licensed plumber, he isn't really going to buy a business in the near future (so he will not pay more money under Obama's plan) - and FOX news just happened to be there to film he and Obama speaking?

Does anyone actually believe this tripe?


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/us/politics/17joe.html

One week ago, Joe Wurzelbacher was just another working man living in a modest house outside Toledo, Ohio, and thinking about how to buy the plumbing business where he works. But when he stopped Senator Barack Obama during a visit to his block last weekend to complain about taxes, he set himself on a path to becoming America’s newest media celebrity — and as such suddenly found himself facing celebrity-level scrutiny.

As it turns out, Joe the Plumber, as he became nationally known when Senator John McCain made him a theme at Wednesday’s final presidential debate, may work in the plumbing business, but he is not a licensed plumber.

Thomas Joseph, the business manager of Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics, based in Toledo, said Thursday that Mr. Wurzelbacher had never held a plumber’s license, which is required in Toledo and several surrounding municipalities. He also never completed an apprenticeship and does not belong to the plumber’s union, which has endorsed Mr. Obama. On Thursday, he acknowledged that he does plumbing work even though he does not have a license.

His full name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher. And he owes back taxes, too, public records show. The premise of his complaint to Mr. Obama about taxes may also be flawed, according to tax analysts. Contrary to what Mr. Wurzelbacher asserted and Mr. McCain echoed, neither his personal taxes nor those of the business where he works are likely to rise if Mr. Obama’s tax plan were to go into effect, they said.

None of that is likely to matter to those who see Mr. Wurzelbacher as a symbol of the entrepreneurial spirit they hope to foster with tax cuts, but even Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was shocked by all the attention.

“I’m kind of like Britney Spears having a headache,” he told The Associated Press on Thursday. “Everybody wants to know about it.”

Just five days ago, Mr. Wurzelbacher, 34, lived in anonymity in Holland, Ohio, a single father who, as he said on national television, worked all day and came home to fix dinner and help his son, 13, with his homework.

But he became the hero of conservatives and Republicans when he stopped Mr. Obama, who was campaigning on his street, and asked whether he believed in the American dream. Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was concerned about having to pay higher taxes as an owner of a small business.

“I’m getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year,” he told Mr. Obama. “Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?”

That encounter wound up on YouTube and led to appearances on the Fox News Channel, interviews with conservative bloggers and a New York Post editorial, all of whom seized on a small part of Mr. Obama’s long reply. “I think that when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody,” Mr. Obama had said.

Mr. McCain invoked Mr. Wurzelbacher in Wednesday’s debate as a way to criticize Mr. Obama’s tax plan and wealth-sharing argument, and picked up the theme again on Thursday.

“You know what Senator Obama had to say to Joe? That he wanted to spread his wealth around,” Mr. McCain said at an event in Downingtown, Pa. “America didn’t become the greatest nation on earth by spreading the wealth,” he said. “We became the greatest nation by creating new wealth.”

After some version of “Joe the Plumber” was mentioned two dozen times during the debate, Mr. Wurzelbacher found news crews outside his home and Katie Couric on the phone.

Mr. Wurzelbacher told reporters that the company he works for, Newell Plumbing & Heating, has two full-time employees: himself and the owner, Al Newell.

Neither Mr. Newell nor Mr. Wurzelbacher responded to telephone calls. And Mr. Wurzelbacher has provided only vague information on his and the company’s finances since talking to Mr. Obama. But if the plumbing business remained a two-person company and the net proceeds — after deductions for business expenses — were shared by the two men, both incomes would most likely fall well below the top tax brackets on which Mr. Obama wants to raise rates, as would the company itself.

Both, in fact, would probably be eligible for a tax cut, said Bob Williams, senior research associate at the independent, nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, though the cut would probably be greater under Mr. McCain’s tax plan than Mr. Obama’s.

According to public records, Mr. Wurzelbacher has been subject to two liens, each over $1,100. One, with a hospital, has been settled, but a tax lien with the State of Ohio is still outstanding.

In his interview with Ms. Couric, Mr. Wurzelbacher, who voted Republican in Ohio’s March primary, said that his encounter with Mr. Obama had been prompted by his desire “to ask one of these guys a question, and really corner them and get them to answer a question for once instead of tap dancing around it. And unfortunately I asked the question, but I still got a tap dance.”

He added, “He was almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.”

Why do you hate Freedom? I keep forgetting.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Joe the Plumber isnt the one with the problem. He's a schlub who got Obama to make an embarrassing revelation about taxes. But the revelation isnt Obama's worst problem. The worst problem is how the media retaliated on Joe.

The message to America is: Expose Obama and expect trouble.

The shit Joe is catching is gonna sink-in with the voters tomorrow or next week.

 

[sr71plt]

Joe the Plumber isnt the one with the problem. He's a schlub who got Obama to make an embarrassing revelation about taxes. But the revelation isnt Obama's worst problem. The worst problem is how the media retaliated on Joe.

The message to America is: Expose Obama and expect trouble.

The shit Joe is catching is gonna sink-in with the voters tomorrow or next week.

Apparently you didn't read (what a surprise!) Selena's link to Sam the Gas Guy, who actually has a business in the financial position that "Joe" the "plumber" was only imagining he was rising to. "Joe" simply didn't know what he was talking about, because he wasn't really in that category--and he's admitted today that he's better off where he actually is under Obama's proposed structure than McCain's.

There's nothing wrong with Obama's tax structure ideas except for those who don't want to give up a slightly larger slice of their huge incomes than those in the middle class do. It's called a progressive income tax and has, always in concept and from time to time in practice, been around for decades.

The Republicans gave the rich some loosening on that, and they proved they couldn't play nice. Tough. (By the way, under Obama's plan, I'll be paying a bit more. No problem. That leaves a whole bunch more to play with that most others won't have under anyone's plan.)

 

[shereads]

Republicans are so far removed from the working class, they think $250,000 is a middle-class income and representative of blue-collar America. This whole Joe-the-Faux-Plumber business is typical of the fairytales they tell each other when they feel self-conscious about kow-towing to the rich.

Joe-the-Faux-Plumber has two tax problems McCain won't be able to fix: (1) his low annual income means he will benefit more under Obama's tax plan than McCain's and (2) had hasn't paid the taxes he already owes. No wonder he was eager to make an anti-tax statement; too bad he chose the candidate who would actually give him a tax break.

 

[Stella_Omega]

SAee, that's where Obama could have nailed him.
"$250, is that gross or profits?"

"Uhhh... I think that's what the billing is."

"So that's not the net, and your own salary will be around 1K?"

"yeah, I guess?"

"Than you would get a tax break under my plan. It strongly supports small businesses. Best of luck sir."

 

[Edward Teach]

Republicans are so far removed from the working class, they think $250,000 is a middle-class income and representative of blue-collar America. This whole Joe-the-Faux-Plumber business is typical of the fairytales they tell each other when they feel self-conscious about kow-towing to the rich.

Joe-the-Faux-Plumber has two tax problems McCain won't be able to fix: (1) his low annual income means he will benefit more under Obama's tax plan than McCain's and (2) had hasn't paid the taxes he already owes. No wonder he was eager to make an anti-tax statement; too bad he chose the candidate who would actually give him a tax break.

Isn't it a little sad that so much of the US votes against its best interests. People support political parties like they were college football teams -- as if the outcome doesn't really make any difference to their lives.

Some learned during the last eight years that who is in office really does matter, but sadly a lot didn't.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I have my doubts that Joe is really up on his accounting. Plumbers make good money, but $250,000 to $280, 000 net for a two man operation seems like a bit much. If that is the GROSS amount, that would be a different matter.

As for tax problems, I have my doubts about that. The writer from the Times said he owes taxes, but goes into no detail. As a semi-retired tax professional, I am aware of how taxing agencies go after the little guys, and try to gouge them for as much as they can, and never mind what's right and wrong.
BTW, I have always been under the impression that this forum tends to cut quite a lot of slack for single parents.