The End of Civility?

[CharleyH]

You don't have to be sorry you made the mistake. You can be sorry for causing misunderstanding / hurt.

Since I do not regret anyone causing me pain and hurt from my misunderstanding, why should I wait for them to "understand" me? Should I apologize for who I am?

 

[damppanties]

Since I do not regret anyone causing me pain and hurt from my misunderstanding, why should I wait for them to "understand" me? Should I apologize for who I am?

Nope. Not for who you are. Would you have wanted to cause hurt or misunderstanding? If not, then you are sorry it happened, right?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I love you Shang. I say that first and I really do mean it, but I think you a bit harsh on Gauche. I can understand the "never apologize" because I have nothing to regret- not anything done to me and not anything I have done. I love life no matter what was/is dealt to me. I know Gauche feels the same.

Dollink, I remember getting a private apology from you-- and demanding a public retraction as well, a couple of years ago. I remember sorta getting one...

It would have meant less to me, coming from someone else. Your reputation makes its own demands on you, in a way.

 

[CharleyH]

Nope. Not for who you are. Would you have wanted to cause hurt or misunderstanding? If not, then you are sorry it happened, right?

I have nothing to regret in my life. I am not sorry for my choices in life. I understand apologies, and I also understand that some need apologies. I do not think they are always necessary.

 

[CharleyH]

Dollink, I remember getting a private apology from you-- and demanding a public retraction as well, a couple of years ago. I remember sorta getting one...

It would have meant less to me, coming from someone else. Your reputation makes its own demands on you, in a way.

I remember that and I felt bad because you were upset. I apologized to you, but never regretted what I felt. I did make a public apology, for you because I care.

 

[damppanties]

I remember that and I felt bad because you were upset. I apologized to you, but never regretted what I felt. I did make a public apology, for you because I care.

That's what I meant. Feeling bad that someone else is feeling bad.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I remember that and I felt bad because you were upset. I apologized to you, but never regretted what I felt. I did make a public apology, for you because I care.

I wouldn't regret feeling bad for upsetting someone either-- if that's what you're saying

I might regret having upset them in the first place though, if it was needless and heedless-- and I certainly have had a nice load of those in my life! Hell, I feel bad about it even when I think it's important. (or perhaps, I feel bad that my sense of urgency has been hijacked by my poor communication skills, perhaps)

 

[CharleyH]

That's what I meant. Feeling bad that someone else is feeling bad.

Well, we are all sort of compassionate at times.

 

[CharleyH]

I wouldn't regret feeling bad for upsetting someone either-- if that's what you're saying

I might regret having upset them in the first place though, if it was needless and heedless-- and I certainly have had a nice load of those in my life! Hell, I feel bad about it even when I think it's important. (or perhaps, I feel bad that my sense of urgency has been hijacked by my poor communication skills, perhaps)

OH! Who am I kidding. I am a mush bag!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, we are all sort of compassionate at times.

ROFLMAO That sounds exactly like something I would have said!

OH! Who am I kidding. I am a mush bag!

yeah, you just got shagged stupid, that's all... And I'm being pissy because I wasn't there.

 

[damppanties]

Well, we are all sort of compassionate at times.

Only sometimes?

 

[Liar]

Only sometimes?

There are exceptons. Monday mornings, I'm about as compassionate as an axe murderer.

 

[damppanties]

There are exceptons. Monday mornings, I'm about as compassionate as an axe murderer.

I'm going to poke you on a Monday morning to see how that works.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I've only been hanging around the Lit forums for about 18 months. Some of the folks with more longevity might be able to recall periods of time when the general tone was as nasty as it seems to be now.

Over the last year and a half, the AH and several other forums (most notably the GB) seem to have shown a marked increase in shooting from the hip, pointless argument, sniping, name-calling, backstabbing, and character assassination. It's amazing to watch intelligent peoples' posts devolve into nothing more than an endless round of "You said... / No, I didn't!"

(Let me hasten to add that the above does not apply to everyone who posts.)

This may be a cyclical thing. It might also be due to an influx of people whose online personalities simply don't play well together. Or maybe an increase in the level of general assholery.

Or, it could be stress due to the building political, financial, and global insecurities.

Here's the Mayo Clinic's rundown on stress-related symptoms:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stress-symptoms/SR00008_D

You'll notice that under "Effects of Stress on Your Thoughts and Feelings" are items such as anger, mood swings, feeling insecure, confusion, forgetfulness, resentment, inability to concentrate, and seeing only the negatives.

"Effects of Stress on Your Behaviors" include angry outbursts, relationship conflicts, and blaming others.

Sound familiar?

So, while there remain a number of people who aren't engaging in eternal recriminations and poo-flinging--is this the end of general civility on Lit? Or only until things improve in the "real" world?

Good rundown, Gnome.

It's certainly true that there has been an extraordinary amount of political threads and posts this year, which I'm sure is due to the US elections. The tension and stress from that and the current economic travails are real and are likely to have a negative effect on civility.

Let's back up a sec and provide the proper definition of political civility, which I believe I first encountered in something from a Cato Institute person. It simply means granting the presumption of good will to your political/ideological opponents. You can accuse them of being misguided and wrongheaded as passionately, provocatively and creatively as you are able, but you may not accuse them of believing as they do for any other reason than a desire for what's best for all people. IOW, of being motivated by anything other than good will. IOW, of being evil.

This doesn't mean you have to be all nicey-nice or even polite - sarcasm and tough talk don't violate the principle, for example.

It's a fact that many people are made uncomfortable by open disagreement, and to them all the political threads are form of "pollution." They have my sympathy. I've written before that it would be better if there were fewer such threads taking up scarce front-page AH real estate. Not fewer posts, just fewer threads to remind the non-politicals of all the political disagreement.

Here's the truth about AH political debates, however: They are very civil by Internet standards, or even real life standards. There are a handful of individuals who refuse to accord adversaries the presumption of good will, but they are a small minority.

~~~~~~~~

Outside of politics "civility" is usually is a synonym for politeness, considerateness, thoughtfulness, niceness, graciousness, etc. Individuals here are all over the map on how much those apply - same as with any group of people. There are a few people here who are just plain mean, and seek to stir up conflict and strife because they enjoy it - also same as anywhere. We also have our saints and just plain good folks, who thankfully make up the majority - again, same as anywhere.

I think we've lost some important leaders who raised the tone for a while - Vana, Lucky and Vella, of course Colleen , and some others I forgot to mention. I suspect we've gained some goodies, too - this might be a good place for folks to name a few (I'll start with an oldie but goodie who's back - Shang. ) Other than that I think the stress thing and the cyclical thing are probably closest to mark in explaining any decline, if there has been one. I'm not totally sure there has - past "golden ages" were never quite as golden as memory paints them.

 

[gauchecritic]

Well, being cute in skewering and ever so pleased with yourself in the use of the language isn't ipso facto, civil.

au contraire. Being ever so pleased about language skills absolutely guarantees civility. With little or no frustration about getting your point across then incivility, anger or trollishness have no foundation, because these aspects or motivations, which are inevitably founded in your own outlook or personal prejudices, are built on shifting sands.

Knowledge, as well as being power, is a solid base upon which to stand.

And never forget: All your base are belong to us.

 

[sr71plt]

au contraire. Being ever so pleased about language skills absolutely guarantees civility. With little or no frustration about getting your point across then incivility, anger or trollishness have no foundation, because these aspects or motivations, which are inevitably founded in your own outlook or personal prejudices, are built on shifting sands.

Knowledge, as well as being power, is a solid base upon which to stand.

And never forget: All your base are belong to us.

English not your native language, I take it.

 

[gauchecritic]

English not your native language, I take it.

No. It's Yorkshire.

To quote H. Enfield: We say what we like and we like what we bloody well say.

My most favourite saying: You can always tell a Yorkshireman. But not much.

 

[sr71plt]

Methinks smugness has set into this thread. The AH is as cliquish as any conversation spot on the Net and probably always has been--and that always welcomes meanness and incivility.

 

[sr71plt]

No. It's Yorkshire.

To quote H. Enfield: We say what we like and we like what we bloody well say.

My most favourite saying: You can always tell a Yorkshireman. But not much.

Ah, un-American then.

(so's your face)

 

[epiphany65]

No. It's Yorkshire.

To quote H. Enfield: We say what we like and we like what we bloody well say.

My most favourite saying: You can always tell a Yorkshireman. But not much.

Ain't that the truth. I had a teacher in high school who was from Yorkshire. He was as thick as a brick.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SR71PLT

Youre right.

 

[gauchecritic]

Ah, un-American then.

(so's your face)

STOP doing that! It's difficult enough trying to hate you just because you're Yanqui.

 

[gauchecritic]

STOP doing that! It's difficult enough trying to hate you just because you're Yanqui.

ETA In case you have Jimmyboy on iggy. apparently you're right.

Oh well that was clever, quoting me own post instead of editing it.

I had a teacher in high school who was from Yorkshire. He was as thick as a brick.

It seems that not everyone from Yorkshire is Yorkshire. And teachers usually are quite thick wherever they hail from.

Aqualung; Jethro Tull

 

[BlackShanglan]

Roxanne, I'm sure, is long familiar with my objections to the approach she espouses, so I shan't go on at length (well, more than usual - I'll aim for less).

The problem, in a nutshell: No one listens.

If you speak in such a way as to offend those of the opposing viewpoint (haranguing, belittling, piling in loaded language, engaging in sarcastic lampoons and straw-man beating), no one who doesn't already agree with you listens for any purpose other than yelling back.

It seems to me, then, that it would be best to confess, before embarking on such tactics, that one cannot claim that one's motive is to learn, instruct, or persuade. It can only be to belittle. That's an awfully low goal for someone who is genuinely passionate about an idea, and it's antithetical to successfully spreading that idea. The more important the idea is, the more ashamed one ought to be of driving people away from it with that sort of behavior.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Methinks smugness has set into this thread. The AH is as cliquish as any conversation spot on the Net and probably always has been--and that always welcomes meanness and incivility.

You often confuse 'friends affirming each other's friendship' for 'cliquishness.'