The End of Civility?

[Guest]

I've only been hanging around the Lit forums for about 18 months. Some of the folks with more longevity might be able to recall periods of time when the general tone was as nasty as it seems to be now.

Over the last year and a half, the AH and several other forums (most notably the GB) seem to have shown a marked increase in shooting from the hip, pointless argument, sniping, name-calling, backstabbing, and character assassination. It's amazing to watch intelligent peoples' posts devolve into nothing more than an endless round of "You said... / No, I didn't!"

(Let me hasten to add that the above does not apply to everyone who posts.)

This may be a cyclical thing. It might also be due to an influx of people whose online personalities simply don't play well together. Or maybe an increase in the level of general assholery.

Or, it could be stress due to the building political, financial, and global insecurities.

Here's the Mayo Clinic's rundown on stress-related symptoms:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stress-symptoms/SR00008_D

You'll notice that under "Effects of Stress on Your Thoughts and Feelings" are items such as anger, mood swings, feeling insecure, confusion, forgetfulness, resentment, inability to concentrate, and seeing only the negatives.

"Effects of Stress on Your Behaviors" include angry outbursts, relationship conflicts, and blaming others.

Sound familiar?

So, while there remain a number of people who aren't engaging in eternal recriminations and poo-flinging--is this the end of general civility on Lit? Or only until things improve in the "real" world?

 

[3113]

only until things improve in the "real" world?

Dude, only till things improve in the world. Right now, everyone feels under pressure and under fire.

Edited to add: a marked increase in incivility on the GB forum? How can you tell

 

[gauchecritic]

The feeling I get (I only visit the AH and story ideas mainly) is that the GB has invaded the AH and I put nearly all the bad feeling in here down to arse holes that can't compete on the GB.

A 'proper' AHer is one that can put down a troll at twenty paces with said troll usually being unaware that it was hit and there lies the problem.

They get hit with wit and come back with shit.

 

[Guest]

The feeling I get (I only visit the AH and story ideas mainly) is that the GB has invaded the AH and I put nearly all the bad feeling in here down to arse holes that can't compete on the GB.

A 'proper' AHer is one that can put down a troll at twenty paces with said troll usually being unaware that it was hit and there lies the problem.

They get hit with wit and come back with shit.

I've noticed the infiltration as well, but the GB itself is teetering on the brink of uncivil war.

Maybe those arse holes from BDSM?

 

[sr71plt]

Could it be when you start throwing around terms like "arse holes," you are already on the road to incivility yourself?

 

[Guest]

Could it be when you start throwing around terms like "arse holes," you are already on the road to incivility yourself?

Not sure whether that was directed at me, but I would invite you to notice the that indicates my statement was a joke.

If it wasn't, please disregard this message.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Neat summation, Gauche.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The feeling I get (I only visit the AH and story ideas mainly) is that the GB has invaded the AH and I put nearly all the bad feeling in here down to arse holes that can't compete on the GB.

A 'proper' AHer is one that can put down a troll at twenty paces with said troll usually being unaware that it was hit and there lies the problem.

They get hit with wit and come back with shit.

When I first explored lit forums, I was truly appalled at what I saw on the first page of GB. AH was a smaller and far more civil pond, and was peopled with some brilliant lights who've wandered away. I know I was much more comfortable here about a year ago than I am now. I feel as if AH is turning into GB-lite, and I know there's little I can do to stop that.

And there are fewer points of agreement on many issues, as the regular group spreads wider. Some things have happened this year that have made me feel extremely uncomfortable, and were caused by people of good intent-- which increased my discomfort exponentially. That's just the way it goes, yanno? Unless a forum is moderated, it is always in danger of self-destruction for one reason or another. And moderated forums rarely last either.

 

[sr71plt]

Not sure whether that was directed at me, but I would invite you to notice the that indicates my statement was a joke.

If it wasn't, please disregard this message.

No, it was not directed at you personally. But the term has already crept up on the thread and used to categorize some sort of "others." I suggest that such terms are not civil in and of themselves, so when they creep into the postings, you've already departed from civility. So it seems to me that a lot of folks concerned that the forum remain civil could start right at home.

And incivility comes in forms other than term use too. Harrassment just for personal amusement is a form of incivility too. And it's rampant here and goes beyond mutual playfulness with multiple partners understanding they are just playing.

 

[impressive]

A 'proper' AHer is one that can put down a troll at twenty paces with said troll usually being unaware that it was hit and there lies the problem.

They get hit with wit and come back with shit.

I stopped braying at the jackasses. Now I just bray in general.

 

[xssve]

Shock stage: Initial paralysis at hearing the bad news.

Denial stage: Trying to avoid the inevitable.

Anger stage: Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion.

Bargaining stage: Seeking in vain for a way out.

Depression stage: Final realization of the inevitable.

Testing stage: Seeking realistic solutions.

Acceptance stage: Finally finding the way forward.

Given that anger is such a useful political tool, you might just have to get used to it.

 

[gauchecritic]

Could it be when you start throwing around terms like "arse holes," you are already on the road to incivility yourself?

It's not possible to be uncivil to a troll. Civility is a social creation with implicitly agreed criteria. Trolls name themselves and their social code, words like arse hole are part of the interlocution. (unlike words such as 'interlocution)

 

[BlackShanglan]

Anger is a worthless tool for any serious long-term goal, but I don't expect that to stop anyone. It is, alas, a fun tool for some people, and that ensures its popularity. If they can convince themselves that it's all in service of a cause, that's just icing on the cake.

 

[BlackShanglan]

It's not possible to be uncivil to a troll. Civility is a social creation with implicitly agreed criteria. Trolls name themselves and their social code, words like arse hole are part of the interlocution. (unlike words such as 'interlocution)

Now who's verbose?

 

[gauchecritic]

Now who's verbose?

You should ask?

(my original reply was "so's your face" but I've used it too much already)

 

[rgraham666]

Anger is a worthless tool for any serious long-term goal, but I don't expect that to stop anyone. It is, alas, a fun tool for some people, and that ensures its popularity. If they can convince themselves that it's all in service of a cause, that's just icing on the cake.

It's also addicting. And many people use internet forums to feed their habits.

 

[sr71plt]

It's not possible to be uncivil to a troll. Civility is a social creation with implicitly agreed criteria. Trolls name themselves and their social code, words like arse hole are part of the interlocution. (unlike words such as 'interlocution)

Nope, incivility is incivility. And it begs the question of just who is the troll.

 

[TE999]

Unfortunately, anonymity further exacerbates the general incivility in posting...as in most forums. Someone who is a jello-spine in person becomes King Kong on a thread.

Such is the way of things, and why there is an Iggy button.

 

[cloudy]

Harrassment just for personal amusement is a form of incivility too.

Oh, this is just perfect.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, this is just perfect.

Ah, yes, the queen of incivility appears.

 

[impressive]

There is now going to be a fight about who is nastier.

Well, I'll tell you, I got totally derailed by this phrase:

mutual playfulness with multiple partners

And nothing y'all say or do now is gonna take my mind off it.

So, I'll just be over here in the corner fantasizing. TYVM.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, I'll tell you, I got totally derailed by this phrase:



And nothing y'all say or do now is gonna take my mind off it.

So, I'll just be over here in the corner fantasizing. TYVM.

Well, it is a sex site. Every once in a while it may digress to its stated purpose.

 

[Safe_Bet]

There is now going to be a fight about who is nastier.

Well, I'll tell you, I got totally derailed by this phrase:



And nothing y'all say or do now is gonna take my mind off it.

So, I'll just be over here in the corner fantasizing. TYVM.

Scoot over.

 

[BlackShanglan]

You should ask?

(my original reply was "so's your face" but I've used it too much already)

I can forgive anything that's not another "Why the long face?" gag.

 

[xssve]

Getting stuck

A common problem with the above cycle is that people get stuck in one phase. Thus a person may become stuck in denial, never moving on from the position of not accepting the inevitable future. When it happens, they still keep on denying it, such as the person who has lost their job still going into the city only to sit on a park bench all day.

Getting stuck in denial is common in 'cool' cultures (such as in Britain, particularly Southern England) where expressing anger is not acceptable. The person may feel that anger, but may then repress it, bottling it up inside.

Likewise, a person may be stuck in permanent anger (which is itself a form of flight from reality) or repeated bargaining. It is more difficult to get stuck in active states than in passivity, and getting stuck in depression is perhaps a more common ailment.

The Kübler-Ross grief cycle

Very common among wingnuts, see any thread by amicus, outwardly civil, but brimming with barely repressed violence and passive aggressive hatred of "the other".

This sort of thing is incited and maintained by right wing agitpropagandists, and wingnuts typically operate continually in a haze of hate and discontent, regardless of external events, I've been studying this phenomena for a while, I call it a "Limbaughtomy".

During the Eighties and Ninties they used to get depressed and go into a funk when they didn't get their way, increasingly, they sulk and make even more outlandish accusations - "Obama is a terrorist" is the latest meme, largely due to the resemblance of his name to OBL. Similarly, the flap about immigrants that may well have helped trigger the current economic crisis, and will at the bare minimum, contribute to how long and deep it lasts.

Ah, the level of political discourse in this country has really reached new levels of shit stirring, there really is not point in pretending to be civil anymore to those who have elevated incivility itself to the status of a "core value".