Getting Along with the Vanillas in Your Life

[intothewoods]

And I do mean "in your life." Not someone I can just say screw off to, or at least not often.

We've talked about what to tell your friends and family before, and a popular answer is nothing, why tell? Well, I generally follow this. However, there are things that come up, which I'd rather not go into, but basically because I was loose-lipped, stupid and/or trusting in the past, I am sometimes in a position where a certain suspicious ex can say hmmm, I know what you're up to, or even, I am concerned you may be doing x, y and z! As to the latter, I typically say, none of your business what I do on my own time, and no I do not do x, y and z in front of my kid, duh, but a part of me wants to say, screw you, there is nothing wrong with x, y and z! And then part of me wants to say, I don't even do x, y and z, so fuck off!

I am trying hard to articulate this here. I have these conflicting goals in my head: (1) feel and express no shame for my desires; (2) admit nothing that can be used against me; (3) maintain a working relationship with this person (i.e., saying fuck off just isn't that useful); and (4) reject the idea that vanilla is morally superior and I am some deviant.

I'm really struggling with this, and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice.

 

[the captians wench]

My mom adopted the philosophy of "if I never hide anything, then nothing can be used against me" after she was blackmailed.

That may be why I have always lived my life "out in the open". I don't go telling everyone what I do in private, but there are things that I say, do, or wear that bring attention to the fact that I have "an alternitive lifestyle". For example, I wear my collar everywhere, except when I'm working or dressy occations. I get questions about it, especially about the tag "if found please return to Ireland". I give just enough information to satisfy the person. "why do you wear that?", "it was a gift and it is special to me". Pretty much like you would satisfy a child's curiousity.

However, I do not have the...complication...of having children, or an ex that really speaks to me much, anymore. I can understand how certian aspects of this lifestyle could be used to "prove" that you do not provide a stable invironment.

What little advice I can actually give is, try not to get defincive. If you go on the defence and say things like "none of your damn business", it leads one to believe that you are doing something wrong, which you're not. Maybe you can turn it around, something like "and what do you do behind closed doors?" or "Why you want tips?" and laugh it off. Something to turn the tables and make him defend himself rather than persecute you.

But really, I think you have to really come to terms with either, 1) there's nothing wrong with what you do, and it makes you happy, or 2) You do feel like there is something wrong, but you're going to do it anyway because it makes you happy.

Me personally, I have a hard time hiding anything, I don't like the feel of it. So I take a lot of chances being public with how I live. But again, I don't have the responcibility of a child either.

I hope you can work something out.

 

[JMohegan]

And I do mean "in your life." Not someone I can just say screw off to, or at least not often.

We've talked about what to tell your friends and family before, and a popular answer is nothing, why tell? Well, I generally follow this. However, there are things that come up, which I'd rather not go into, but basically because I was loose-lipped, stupid and/or trusting in the past, I am sometimes in a position where a certain suspicious ex can say hmmm, I know what you're up to, or even, I am concerned you may be doing x, y and z! As to the latter, I typically say, none of your business what I do on my own time, and no I do not do x, y and z in front of my kid, duh, but a part of me wants to say, screw you, there is nothing wrong with x, y and z! And then part of me wants to say, I don't even do x, y and z, so fuck off!

I am trying hard to articulate this here. I have these conflicting goals in my head: (1) feel and express no shame for my desires; (2) admit nothing that can be used against me; (3) maintain a working relationship with this person (i.e., saying fuck off just isn't that useful); and (4) reject the idea that vanilla is morally superior and I am some deviant.

I'm really struggling with this, and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice.

A dad has a right to be concerned about his child's welfare, and I see value in openly acknowledging that fact. So when he says: "I am concerned you may be doing x, y and z," I'd suggest something like: "I know you're really just expressing concern about the kidlet, and I want you to know I think it's wonderful that you care about him so much - as, of course, do I. But what you have suggested is NOT going to affect him in any way, and here's why."

He doesn't have a right to press for details, and your desires are totally beside the point. What you and Dad have in common is one thing and one thing only - a shared concern for the welfare of that child. So I would turn every attempt to engage you on this subject around to focus on that issue and that issue alone.

 

[Harmony_1985]

And I do mean "in your life." Not someone I can just say screw off to, or at least not often.

We've talked about what to tell your friends and family before, and a popular answer is nothing, why tell? Well, I generally follow this. However, there are things that come up, which I'd rather not go into, but basically because I was loose-lipped, stupid and/or trusting in the past, I am sometimes in a position where a certain suspicious ex can say hmmm, I know what you're up to, or even, I am concerned you may be doing x, y and z! As to the latter, I typically say, none of your business what I do on my own time, and no I do not do x, y and z in front of my kid, duh, but a part of me wants to say, screw you, there is nothing wrong with x, y and z! And then part of me wants to say, I don't even do x, y and z, so fuck off!

I am trying hard to articulate this here. I have these conflicting goals in my head: (1) feel and express no shame for my desires; (2) admit nothing that can be used against me; (3) maintain a working relationship with this person (i.e., saying fuck off just isn't that useful); and (4) reject the idea that vanilla is morally superior and I am some deviant.

I'm really struggling with this, and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice.

Don't feel ashamed about your lifestyle honey, you've no need to.

End of the day, I don't think the fact you live an alternate lifestyle can be used against you in any legal standing, cos as long as it doesn't break a law (i.e your children are joining in, which I know they're not) then its irrelevant.

Like it's been said, he has no right to poke his nose into your private life, and the best course of action is to stay calm and answer a question with a question, turn it back on him.

 

[intothewoods]

A dad has a right to be concerned about his child's welfare, and I see value in openly acknowledging that fact. So when he says: "I am concerned you may be doing x, y and z," I'd suggest something like: "I know you're really just expressing concern about the kidlet, and I want you to know I think it's wonderful that you care about him so much - as, of course, do I. But what you have suggested is NOT going to affect him in any way, and here's why."

He doesn't have a right to press for details, and your desires are totally beside the point. What you and Dad have in common is one thing and one thing only - a shared concern for the welfare of that child. So I would turn every attempt to engage you on this subject around to focus on that issue and that issue alone.

Great advice. Thank you. Real quick though - the bolded part makes me get angry, because he has no reason to be concerned about his child's welfare (I mean, I've not given him a reason to). It's, it's, well, it's not fair! Should I just squelch that? Yes, I guess I should. Turn it around as something we're jointly concerned with.

Well, it's hard!

 

[intothewoods]

Don't feel ashamed about your lifestyle honey, you've no need to.

End of the day, I don't think the fact you live an alternate lifestyle can be used against you in any legal standing, cos as long as it doesn't break a law (i.e your children are joining in, which I know they're not) then its irrelevant.

Like it's been said, he has no right to poke his nose into your private life, and the best course of action is to stay calm and answer a question with a question, turn it back on him.

Probably not, although I know of relatively recent cases in which gay men and women have lost custody because they're gay.

My mom adopted the philosophy of "if I never hide anything, then nothing can be used against me" after she was blackmailed.

That may be why I have always lived my life "out in the open". I don't go telling everyone what I do in private, but there are things that I say, do, or wear that bring attention to the fact that I have "an alternitive lifestyle". For example, I wear my collar everywhere, except when I'm working or dressy occations. I get questions about it, especially about the tag "if found please return to Ireland". I give just enough information to satisfy the person. "why do you wear that?", "it was a gift and it is special to me". Pretty much like you would satisfy a child's curiousity.

However, I do not have the...complication...of having children, or an ex that really speaks to me much, anymore. I can understand how certian aspects of this lifestyle could be used to "prove" that you do not provide a stable invironment.

What little advice I can actually give is, try not to get defincive. If you go on the defence and say things like "none of your damn business", it leads one to believe that you are doing something wrong, which you're not. Maybe you can turn it around, something like "and what do you do behind closed doors?" or "Why you want tips?" and laugh it off. Something to turn the tables and make him defend himself rather than persecute you.

But really, I think you have to really come to terms with either, 1) there's nothing wrong with what you do, and it makes you happy, or 2) You do feel like there is something wrong, but you're going to do it anyway because it makes you happy.

Me personally, I have a hard time hiding anything, I don't like the feel of it. So I take a lot of chances being public with how I live. But again, I don't have the responcibility of a child either.

I hope you can work something out.

My instinct is not to hide anything either. But having a kid and the job I do require privacy. It's definitely not in my nature, although I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping certain things private. It gets easier, and I have less inclination to share as time goes on.

 

[Harmony_1985]

Great advice. Thank you. Real quick though - the bolded part makes me get angry, because he has no reason to be concerned about his child's welfare. It's, it's, well, it's not fair! Should I just squelch that? Yes, I guess I should. Turn it around as something we're jointly concerned with.

Well, it's hard!

His concern for his child's welfare doesn't mean he thinks you're a bad parent.

He's doing what comes naturally to him as a dad.

 

[JMohegan]

Great advice. Thank you. Real quick though - the bolded part makes me get angry, because he has no reason to be concerned about his child's welfare. It's, it's, well, it's not fair! Should I just squelch that? Yes, I guess I should. Turn it around as something we're jointly concerned with.

Well, it's hard!

I know it's hard. Much easier said than done.

Yes, you should squelch it.

Remember, you're not doing this for him. You're doing this for the kidlet. You can do *anything* for your kidlet, ITW. I know you can.

 

[intothewoods]

His concern for his child's welfare doesn't mean he thinks you're a bad parent.

He's doing what comes naturally to him as a dad.

Well, my feeling is that it's more about his issues with me than actual concern. However, my reaction is also totally about me! So, we're even.

I know it's hard. Much easier said than done.

Yes, you should squelch it.

Remember, you're not doing this for him. You're doing this for the kidlet. You can do *anything* for your kidlet, ITW. I know you can.

True, true. That helps me to focus. I think he and I both have kidlet's best interest in mind, but if we're not careful we can easily slip into making it about us. It will happen from time to time, and I just have to keep reminding myself that the issue is what is best for kidlet, not ITW v. Mr.ex-ITW.

 

[Netzach]

Great advice. Thank you. Real quick though - the bolded part makes me get angry, because he has no reason to be concerned about his child's welfare (I mean, I've not given him a reason to). It's, it's, well, it's not fair! Should I just squelch that? Yes, I guess I should. Turn it around as something we're jointly concerned with.

Well, it's hard!

Is his father dating?

Dish same out.

He'll want a truce called fast on this issue.

If he's exposing your kid to random possibly weird women you don't know, you're just as rightfully "concerned" yes?

I know it's not the nice right clean good advice, but sometimes it's a dose of "oooohhhh that's how I'm being an asshole" if the person is wired like me.

 

[Zoots_owner]

Probably not, although I know of relatively recent cases in which gay men and women have lost custody because they're gay.

I remember at least one case where it was used against BDSM parents also, in some relatively conservative part of the country. Heck, I've known divorces/custody cases where sexual orientation, religion and political beliefs were all brought up, to appeal to the judge's personal biases. That's nasty lawyering, but much of what goes on in family court, is.

Where there are kids concerned, I have to go with keeping things fairly quiet.

 

[Harmony_1985]

Is his father dating?

Dish same out.

He'll want a truce called fast on this issue.

I know it's not the nice right clean good advice, but sometimes it's a dose of "oooohhhh that's how I'm being an asshole" if the person is wired like me.

Exactly, give him a taste of his own medicine as it were.

I remember at least one case where it was used against BDSM parents also, in some relatively conservative part of the country. Heck, I've known divorces/custody cases where sexual orientation, religion and political beliefs were all brought up, to appeal to the judge's personal biases. That's nasty lawyering, but much of what goes on in family court, is.

Where there are kids concerned, I have to go with keeping things fairly quiet.

See, if that happened in the UK, people would be up in arms at it being discriminatory.

 

[subbie_333]

Great advice. Thank you. Real quick though - the bolded part makes me get angry, because he has no reason to be concerned about his child's welfare (I mean, I've not given him a reason to). It's, it's, well, it's not fair! Should I just squelch that? Yes, I guess I should. Turn it around as something we're jointly concerned with.

Another factor here is that society and/or the government are holding him responsible on some level for the child (child support, et. al.). So, he can feel that if he is being held responsible, then, he should have some rights. Certainly he can use this argument/reasoning if he has another motive. Not knowing your situation, but, even with full custody i don't think that means legally he has absolutely no say about *everything* in the child's life. Society believes that being a biological parent carries both responsibility and rights. Your best defense/solution is probably to compartmentalize as many things as possible, and, not allow him to cajole you into mixing things that don't really go together.

 

[intothewoods]

Another factor here is that society and/or the government are holding him responsible on some level for the child (child support, et. al.). So, he can feel that if he is being held responsible, then, he should have some rights. Certainly he can use this argument/reasoning if he has another motive. Not knowing your situation, but, even with full custody i don't think that means legally he has absolutely no say about *everything* in the child's life. Society believes that being a biological parent carries both responsibility and rights. Your best defense/solution is probably to compartmentalize as many things as possible, and, not allow him to cajole you into mixing things that don't really go together.

Oh, he certainly has rights. I'm not suggesting he doesn't. My feeling was that he was suggesting I might take part in some activity in front of my child which I would never in a million years do, and he knows that.

I remember at least one case where it was used against BDSM parents also, in some relatively conservative part of the country. Heck, I've known divorces/custody cases where sexual orientation, religion and political beliefs were all brought up, to appeal to the judge's personal biases. That's nasty lawyering, but much of what goes on in family court, is.

Where there are kids concerned, I have to go with keeping things fairly quiet.

Things can get ugly, and I'm glad they haven't.

Is his father dating?

Dish same out.

He'll want a truce called fast on this issue.

If he's exposing your kid to random possibly weird women you don't know, you're just as rightfully "concerned" yes?

I know it's not the nice right clean good advice, but sometimes it's a dose of "oooohhhh that's how I'm being an asshole" if the person is wired like me.

He is, and well, I sorta did, but not all that effectively. No weird women. He's a square. I did raise it as an illustration of how neither of us have control over each other's life choices, and that was sort of effective. Sort of.

 

[subbie_333]

Oh, he certainly has rights. I'm not suggesting he doesn't. My feeling was that he was suggesting I might take part in some activity in front of my child which I would never in a million years do, and he knows that.

i understand, but, my point was that he may have another motive (i.e suggesting to a judge that you are unfit in order to gain custody or to reduce child support). And, part of that plan could be to rattle you by saying those things to you directly. So, in the example you just presented, your response could be "you have proof?" or "the only way you would know such a thing would be if you were in my house illegally" or "that is the dumbest thing you have ever said". Don't allow him to to use one thing for leverage in another.

 

[intothewoods]

i understand, but, my point was that he may have another motive (i.e suggesting to a judge that you are unfit in order to gain custody or to reduce child support). And, part of that plan could be to rattle you by saying those things to you directly. So, in the example you just presented, your response could be "you have proof?" or "the only way you would know such a thing would be if you were in my house illegally" or "that is the dumbest thing you have ever said". Don't allow him to to use one thing for leverage in another.

Heh. Are you a lawyer?

He's not that much of a dick, but I will say that he has used the threat of revealing such things as leverage of a sort in the past. Not recently, but it has happened. I think it's part of what makes it tricky. The more that I can make the focus about facts and not speculation, and time with my kid only, the better.

 

[subbie_333]

Heh. Are you a lawyer?

Nope, not that bad, just a logical analytical person

He's not that much of a dick, but I will say that he has used the threat of revealing such things as leverage of a sort in the past. Not recently, but it has happened. I think it's part of what makes it tricky. The more that I can make the focus about facts and not speculation, and time with my kid only, the better.

Then, perhaps you need to sit down and think about situations that he can use to harass you, then, come up with a prepared list of short responses. Probably not more than 6 or 8 that you can rattle off that apply to that particular situation. Over time as he circles back to another angle and he recognizes that you are giving the same answers, he will see that he isn't getting anywhere.

That one about "being in my house illegally" is related to one i used on a telemarketer one time. He was one of those really positive types, trying to convince me how wonder the thing was and how i was able to afford it. Well, i jumped on that last bit and responded with something like "the only way you would really know if that was true would be if you had illegally gotten access to my credit report". There was silence, then, some fast backpedalling.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Just an outsiders point of view. And not meant to be mean just a bit straight forward.
He is manipulating you and you are allowing him to do so, allowing him to control you in a sense.
Being into BDSM doesn't mean you are a pedophile or that your friends or lovers are. Same as he wouldn't have sex right in front of your child surely he knows you wouldn't either.
Remind he that what goes on in your bed is no longer his concern and end the conversation.

 

[intothewoods]

Nope, not that bad, just a logical analytical person


Then, perhaps you need to sit down and think about situations that he can use to harass you, then, come up with a prepared list of short responses. Probably not more than 6 or 8 that you can rattle off that apply to that particular situation. Over time as he circles back to another angle and he recognizes that you are giving the same answers, he will see that he isn't getting anywhere.

That's a really good idea. I'm going to do this.

Just an outsiders point of view. And not meant to be mean just a bit straight forward.
He is manipulating you and you are allowing him to do so, allowing him to control you in a sense.
Being into BDSM doesn't mean you are a pedophile or that your friends or lovers are. Same as he wouldn't have sex right in front of your child surely he knows you wouldn't either.
Remind he that what goes on in your bed is no longer his concern and end the conversation.

Not mean at all. I am letting him get to me, in some way. I feel really rattled right now. Like I did something bad, and I should feel guilty. And I didn't do anything bad.

It's a hold over from fucking up in the past. I did lie. I thought I had forgiven myself, and I mostly have, but I think there is still that part of me that says, oh, you can't possibly get what you want without being punished for it (I mean, uh, not in the consensual way).

Sorry for dragging this into ITW Therapy Time. Y'all are much cheaper though. Back in a bit. This has all been really helpful. Thank you.

 

[JMohegan]

I think it would be perfectly normal, and not unreasonable, for a non-kinky guy to harbor a *sincere* lack of understanding about the implications of kink, and to *genuinely* wonder about things such as the following.

"What kind of guy beats his girlfriend? Is it really such a leap to imagine him hitting my kid?"

"What kind of woman lets herself get beaten and ordered about? What's happened to her? Does she still have the self esteem necessary to protect our son?"


Many good, decent, fair-minded people have these reactions when first confronted with the idea of kink. The only way I know to dispel such fears is to address them head on, presenting the facts (but not the prurient details) in a calm, confident way, and to consistently behave as a responsible, self-assured human being. It takes time and patience, but it can be done.

 

[Netzach]

Nope, not that bad, just a logical analytical person




Then, perhaps you need to sit down and think about situations that he can use to harass you, then, come up with a prepared list of short responses. Probably not more than 6 or 8 that you can rattle off that apply to that particular situation. Over time as he circles back to another angle and he recognizes that you are giving the same answers, he will see that he isn't getting anywhere.

This is a GREAT idea.

Works for politicians well, you too can be Sarah Palin.

 

[intothewoods]

I think it would be perfectly normal, and not unreasonable, for a non-kinky guy to harbor a *sincere* lack of understanding about the implications of kink, and to *genuinely* wonder about things such as the following.

"What kind of guy beats his girlfriend? Is it really such a leap to imagine him hitting my kid?"

"What kind of woman lets herself get beaten and ordered about? What's happened to her? Does she still have the self esteem necessary to protect our son?"


Many good, decent, fair-minded people have these reactions when first confronted with the idea of kink. The only way I know to dispel such fears is to address them head on, presenting the facts (but not the prurient details) in a calm, confident way, and to consistently behave as a responsible, self-assured human being. It takes time and patience, but it can be done.

It is absolutely reasonable, and we have gone down that road. However, and I can speak about people beyond my ex, there is a perception that kinky=swinger=poly=giant orge of pervs.

It's difficult to do education on this front without providing a whole lot of information that might be used against me. I just have to be smart about it. I haven't always been, and I continue to pay for that.

Anyway, getting away from my story, I have simply talked about my relationship just like I would any other relationship with my vanilla friends until I think they figured out that I'm still me, and Mister Man is a good guy. I think, for my ex, that information/evidence can't be ignored forever, but look, exes sometimes go down the route of working out old animosities in the guise of a legitimate concern. It's tricky.

 

[Homburg]

The line I've found most effective with a certain type of person (and this would not work here) is "I'll tell you if you really want to know, but you need to understand that you asked for it. Do you really want to know?" This has worked wonders on parents, friends, etc. The implication is very strongly that I am not hiding anything, I'm just not sharing because you really don't want or need to know.

 

[camelotak]

Sorry for dragging this into ITW Therapy Time. Y'all are much cheaper though. Back in a bit. This has all been really helpful. Thank you.

I thought that was actually one of the functions of these forums. A little peer therapy.

 

[subbie_333]

This is a GREAT idea.

Works for politicians well

Yes, when more than one person uses the concept, via collusion, we get one of the Bush Administration's most favorite toys: the talking point