"We hold these truths to be self evident . . ."

[JagFarlane]

So what's the idea of this thread? Are we just supposed to lay down our wreathe of flowers, snap a sharp salute and move along?

Heres the Salute for you:

The Sailors Creed

I, am a United States Sailor

I, will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and obey the orders of those appointed over me.

I, represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world.

I, proudly serve my country's Navy combat team with HONOR, COURAGE, and COMMITMENT.

I, am committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all.

ETA: Just cause I be on a patriotic kick now

Anchors Aweigh My Boys

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

The brits are orgasming over Magna Carta - full of stuff to put the peasants in their place, and we are gurgling over a declaration that, at best is anti-racial and at worst is quasi-fascist.

BS. Read the document - -it's posted in the OP.

This time I'm really gone for the weekend - happy holiday, everyone.

 

[JagFarlane]

BS. Read the document - -it's posted in the OP.

This time I'm really gone for the weekend - happy holiday, everyone.

Take care lass

 

[oggbashan]

Whether the US Declaration of Independence is better than Magna Carta or not is irrelevant.

It still deserves celebration on the 4th of July and the best I can offer are the rare Og dancing bananas:



That should be 13 for the 13 Colonies but Lit limits me to 10. Please assume the other three are dancing offstage...

Og

 

[ishtat]

Oligarchic Oppression

So what's the idea of this thread? Are we just supposed to lay down our wreathe of flowers, snap a sharp salute and move along?

I don't know what Roxanne was getting at precisely but maybe it's worth looking at another Bill of Rights and counting your blessings --- or not..

www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/england.htm

Any American will notice a lot of similarities and Wiki suggests that the American Bill drew heavily on the English one( Except in the first the Pope is the villain and in the second it's george III). Certainly there are a lot of common concerns and sometimes the language is almost identical.

But contrast the history. Not one in a hundred British citizens would know what their Bill was about wheras any fresh refinement or interpretation of the US Bill or Constitution is the subject of huge public debate. Ok the quality of the debate can sometimes be woeful but at least there is debate.

In the UK the Parliament is supreme and there is no dedicated part of the judiciary concerned with the preservation of fundamental constitutional and personal rights.

This is supposed to be the Parliaments job and what a mess they have made of it. Britain is no longer an effective democracy. Essentially it has become an oligarchy of party interests which, especially in the last twenty years has given away sovereignty to Europe, Scotland and Wales, all without reference to the people. Promised referenda have been denied .The reality of Habeus Corpus has almost ceased to exist with the recent Act allowing incarceration for the ridiculous period of 42 days whilst alleged wrong doings are being investigated. If you want to protest to Parliament you cannot , the right to do so anywhere near Parliament has been eliminated - unless a policeman gives permission !!

British governments have in my view in recent years become governments of oppression routinely denying their subjects rights and treating the people with contempt. It just wouldn't happen in the USA and perhaps Americans should be thankful for that today. Americans might even start forming armed militias!!

 

[keeblercrumb]

.............................

British governments have in my view in recent years become governments of oppression routinely denying their subjects rights and treating the people with contempt. It just wouldn't happen in the USA and perhaps Americans should be thankful for that today. Americans might even start forming armed militias!!

There is indeed an object lesson in this. Freedom is a fragile thing..... Just as British freedoms of assembly and movement were eroded primarily in response to the IRA bombing campaigns and more recently Islamic terrorists, so have our own freedoms been curtailed post 9/11.

It is the reflexive reaction of the people for security that this bargain with the devil is made. It is as predictable as it is understandable.

I would like to think it is a temporary insanity that we will recover from someday; akin to the internment of Japanese Americans in the 2nd World War.

But given the unlikelihood of the current "threat" disappearing anytime soon, I fear we will become adjusted to it and accepting of it for all the days yet to come.

So on this day of independence, let us toast one more time the concepts of freedom that we cherish and commit ourselves once more to their preservation and redemption.



-KC

 

[neonlyte]

I don't know what Roxanne was getting at precisely but maybe it's worth looking at another Bill of Rights and counting your blessings --- or not..

www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/england.htm

Any American will notice a lot of similarities and Wiki suggests that the American Bill drew heavily on the English one( Except in the first the Pope is the villain and in the second it's george III). Certainly there are a lot of common concerns and sometimes the language is almost identical.

But contrast the history. Not one in a hundred British citizens would know what their Bill was about wheras any fresh refinement or interpretation of the US Bill or Constitution is the subject of huge public debate. Ok the quality of the debate can sometimes be woeful but at least there is debate.

In the UK the Parliament is supreme and there is no dedicated part of the judiciary concerned with the preservation of fundamental constitutional and personal rights.

This is supposed to be the Parliaments job and what a mess they have made of it. Britain is no longer an effective democracy. Essentially it has become an oligarchy of party interests which, especially in the last twenty years has given away sovereignty to Europe, Scotland and Wales, all without reference to the people. Promised referenda have been denied .The reality of Habeus Corpus has almost ceased to exist with the recent Act allowing incarceration for the ridiculous period of 42 days whilst alleged wrong doings are being investigated. If you want to protest to Parliament you cannot , the right to do so anywhere near Parliament has been eliminated - unless a policeman gives permission !!

British governments have in my view in recent years become governments of oppression routinely denying their subjects rights and treating the people with contempt. It just wouldn't happen in the USA and perhaps Americans should be thankful for that today. Americans might even start forming armed militias!!

The UK promulgated the Human Rights Act in 2000, with right of appeal to the European Court of Human Rights; however, the UK government has enacted many laws to restrict the individuals right to protest and recently passed the right to hold suspected terrorists without charge for 42 days. This latter action does impinge upon individual rights... but it is a trade off against the potential damage suspected terrorists might cause.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't know what Roxanne was getting at precisely but maybe it's worth looking at another Bill of Rights and counting your blessings --- or not..

www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/england.htm

Any American will notice a lot of similarities and Wiki suggests that the American Bill drew heavily on the English one( Except in the first the Pope is the villain and in the second it's george III). Certainly there are a lot of common concerns and sometimes the language is almost identical.

But contrast the history. Not one in a hundred British citizens would know what their Bill was about wheras any fresh refinement or interpretation of the US Bill or Constitution is the subject of huge public debate. Ok the quality of the debate can sometimes be woeful but at least there is debate.

The English Bill of Rights, part of the Glorious Revolution, was a temporary fudge to give legality to the transfer of power to William (and Mary). It is not a founding document for a new country. Its influence on English jurisprudence and parliamentary democracy was temporary and it was short-lived.

George III could have been accused, by the British, of some of the same abuses of power that were mentioned about James.

There is no such thing as a written English Constitution nor a Bill of Rights. The European Court of Human Rights acts as a defender of the rights of the individual in extreme cases.

Comparing the UK and Europe should be more like comparing the US States with the Federal Government. There are areas where the States, or some of them, disagree with the Federal Government. There are areas where the Federal Government wants more power to legislate for activities in the States. There is tension between the centre and the local.

We have the same tensions in Europe. A European Union must, by the very fact of its existence, derive some supranational powers as a union. The arguments about a European Constitution/Treaty of Lisbon are very publicly debated BUT the document/revised treaty is almost impenetrable in any of its several languages. Some of the Irish "No" vote was based on "Don't sign something you don't understand".

As for 42 day detention? The current agreement has many ifs, buts and maybes with protections for individuals. Whether it was necessary? I don't think so but the professionals dealing with terrorist activities think that it is essential to have the power available IF they needed it. Introducing it now, instead of a knee-jerk reaction after the next terrorist outrage, is probably preferable. The legislation has damaged the Prime Minister and the Labour Party and is massively unpopular. IF, and I hope not, some massive terrorist attack happens, the 42 day legislation will suddenly become popular. The UK does not have, nor would our politicians tolerate, Extraordinary Rendition nor GITMO. The 42 day legislation is the closest our government is allowing itself to go.

How long have people remained in GITMO without charge and without trial? The US cannot point a finger at the UK and say "We're freer than you" when GITMO exists.

Og

 

[ishtat]

The English Bill of Rights, part of the Glorious Revolution, was a temporary fudge to give legality to the transfer of power to William (and Mary). It is not a founding document for a new country. Its influence on English jurisprudence and parliamentary democracy was temporary and it was short-lived.(end Quote)

I think your case is overstated here ( Glorious Revolution ? temporary fudge?) Ogg but haven't much time to argue. I accept it wasn't a founding document but there are still lessons to be drawn from their varient histories.

Your point about Gitmo is fair but my fundamental point is that UK has developed from a democracy into an Oligarchy which is consistently anti democratic. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I cited a quote earlier, "The Constitution is not a suicide pact." In other words, in cases of extreme danger or emergency, providing for the common defence trumps all other values. This is a sound, "Anglo Saxon common sense" type concept that we share with our British cousins and former masters (Hurrah for Independence! <shoots off rocket> ).

Needless to say there can be a great amount of ambiguity and resulting controversy in practice. Speicifically, what is an "enemy combatant" in a conflict where the threat is from shadowy non-nation-state actors, a few of whose members may even be citizens, and any of whom may acquire access to WMDs that are becoming more common and easier to produce every year? Ogg asks how long those individuals have been held in Guantanamo. I imagine that a few hapless Germans became POWs as early as 1939 - how long were they kept in detention without benefit of habeas corpus? Sure, there was less ambiguity about who was an "enemy combatant" then, but the priniciple is the same.

The "genius" (guiding spirit) of both the British and the American peoples is a very strong sense of individual freedom and autonomy, combined with that common-sense that yields things like an appreciation of no "suicide pact" Constitutions, written or not. The Brits' tradition of liberty has roots that reach all the way back to the Angles and Saxons with their "fyrds" and "meets" (militia and popular assemby). America is not only a new country but a new people; our nation was born during the Enlightenment, and founded on explicitly Enlightenment ideals that are not alien to the older English spirit.

Over the past two centuries both nations have done more than any others in history to disseminate and promote in the world those liberal, Enlightenment values that are shared by every last person posting on this website, and which were never enunciated more eloquently than in the document in the OP of this thread. Perhaps more than any other peoples in the world ours really do "hold these truths to be self evident." So tonight, when I am drinking toasts to George Washington and Liberty, I'll also raise a glass to our cousins, from whom we inherited our genius in that area.

 

[oggbashan]

Your point about Gitmo is fair but my fundamental point is that UK has developed from a democracy into an Oligarchy which is consistently anti democratic. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.

I don't know how to answer such a sweeping statement.

Where is your evidence that the UK is an Oligarchy? The recent events in Westminster with the Government barely scraping a majority on the 42-day law - only achieved with the help of the MPs of Ulster's Democratic Unionists - seem to show that Parliamentary Democracy is alive and well.

Our General Elections are decided by voting of all registered electors. I have concerns about Postal Voting, concerns that are shared by the Electoral Commissioners and Returning Officers, but they are as nothing compared to the machinations seen in Florida during the last Presidential election. "Hanging and Pregnant Chads" and "paperless voting with no audit trail" are not part of UK elections.

The background of our Members of Parliament are very varied and almost a cross-section of our communities. Perhaps there should be more Muslim women MPs to provide a better balance but Muslim women face barriers from within their own community.

Despite Labour's current massive majority in the House of Commons they have had difficulty persuading their own supporters to back them. If there were to be a General Election tomorrow, Labour would lose. But there won't be a General Election tomorrow and Labour knows that it can afford to be unpopular now IF it can change public perception in the next couple of years.

I think that Oligarchs have more power in the US than they do in the UK. Apart from the Trades Unions whose influence on the Labour Party has been overestimated in the last ten years, there are very few groups in the UK that exert the influence that can be seen in the US.

I believe that democracy is alive and well in the UK and I'm constantly exercising my right to annoy my local and national representatives.

Og

 

[ishtat]

I don't know how to answer such a sweeping statement.

Where is your evidence that the UK is an Oligarchy? The recent events in Westminster with the Government barely scraping a majority on the 42-day law - only achieved with the help of the MPs of Ulster's Democratic Unionists - seem to show that Parliamentary Democracy is alive and well.

Our General Elections are decided by voting of all registered electors. I have concerns about Postal Voting, concerns that are shared by the Electoral Commissioners and Returning Officers, but they are as nothing compared to the machinations seen in Florida during the last Presidential election. "Hanging and Pregnant Chads" and "paperless voting with no audit trail" are not part of UK elections.

The background of our Members of Parliament are very varied and almost a cross-section of our communities. Perhaps there should be more Muslim women MPs to provide a better balance but Muslim women face barriers from within their own community.

Despite Labour's current massive majority in the House of Commons they have had difficulty persuading their own supporters to back them. If there were to be a General Election tomorrow, Labour would lose. But there won't be a General Election tomorrow and Labour knows that it can afford to be unpopular now IF it can change public perception in the next couple of years.

I think that Oligarchs have more power in the US than they do in the UK. Apart from the Trades Unions whose influence on the Labour Party has been overestimated in the last ten years, there are very few groups in the UK that exert the influence that can be seen in the US.

I believe that democracy is alive and well in the UK and I'm constantly exercising my right to annoy my local and national representatives.

Og

Ogg I believe that you are an incurable optimist and I don't think that you or any other ordinary citizen is getting anything like the response you should from your representitives. I believe that Tories and Labour alike have no respect for the views of voters. They just want power and the public's cynicism is amply demonstrated by the fact that only 22% of the electorate voted the current lot in.

However if you can annoy them please do . In that at least we will agree!

 

[DeeZire]

I could do all those things, and then launch into rants about welfare state, but I'm not going to...

Rox - since you brought it up, according to Amendment X:

"Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

if the people want welfare, they have the power to set it up. Likewise, if the people don't want welfare, they have the right to convince their representative government to discontinue it. Considering that Christian values ("One nation, under God - fer chrissakes!) are often cited as a guiding force in the structure of our society, and our government, would Jesus want to discontinue welfare?

If your answer is 'yes', please explain. If your answer is 'no', please accept the will of the people. This is, after all, a democracy, where we celebrate freedom without the limitations imposed by a restrictive ideology counter to the original intent of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

This is why not everyone celebrates July 4th with blind allegiance and praise. The 'beauty' of the constitution is being soiled by free market greed, and dragged through the mud be zealots and fools. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to fly the flag at half-mast on July 4th, to honer the death of the values that used to be synonymous with the red, white, and blue.

 

[Somme]

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

A well regulated Militia (....................................................) shall not be infringed.

Punctuation does......make a difference.