D/s and co-dependency.

cati

Literally Rabid.
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Posts
1,046
Good morning....

I've been doing alot of reading lately and struggling with this issue for quite a while. Do any of you feel that your D/s relationship with your PYL might be co-dependant? I mean in the classic sense of co-dependency, where you are giving more than you should and they are giving you less than you feel is your due. That you often ignore your own RL problems to take care of your partner's issues.

- a situation where the healthy "give and take" necessary for an emotionally strong relationship is absent. ...but, that it's ok because you are a giving, supportive and understanding individual and you feel that your needs are just not as important as theirs.

Would co-dependency be expected as part of the normal functioning in a D/s or Master/slave relationship?

Do you think that many D/s relationships fail because they are co-dependent and one or the other partner just doesn't realize it or just doesn't care until it's too late and they wonder what went wrong?
 
Good morning to you.
Did you sleep well?

I can certainly see where this dynamic could exist in D/s.
As to where and how and why it could fail rely on a number of possabilities.

However....whereas in most 'nilla relationships co-dependancy is hampering and one-sidedly constricting in D/s it has a safe haven in a healthy outlet so long as the one dependant has their needs met.

In D/s, I've noticed that some forms of codependancy are naturally encouraged whether it's present initially or not.
Atleast in 24/7 situations.

As for part-time players who need a more balanced situation where independance of self and thought are necessary for both to achieve a common, R/L goal it could be hampering.

Personally.....I rather enjoy an infusion of dependancy and addiction in my submissive.
I like to know that love and lust aren't the only things driving her need for me.
I like the thought that something "off" inside her mind acts as a pleasant back up for the other two.

Having been exposed to several forms of insanity and psychological dependancies, I have developed an appreciation for certain forms.
:rose:
 
Last edited:
I'll just repeat what I said in Pure's thread:

I personally think a relationship in which one person relies on the other completely, namely, the slave upon the Master, without any reciprocity, is not sustainable as a primary relationship. That is, I could see this working as a secondary relationship, in which both partners do have a primary relationship where both can rely on the other.
 
this piece is from a larger article at www.allaboutlifechallenges.org/Codependency.htm

Codependency - What is it?

Codependency is when a person has a strong desire to control people around them, including their spouse, children or co-workers. Codependents believe they are somehow more capable than others, who need their direction or suggestions to fulfill tasks they are responsible to complete. They feel compassion for people who may be hurting and feel they should be the one to help them. Codependent people give of their time, emotions, finances, and other resources. They have a very difficult time saying "no" to any requests made of them.

Codependency - A Matter of Control

Codependency, for others, doesn't express itself in a desire to control, but instead, in the need to be controlled by others. Because it is nearly impossible for Codependents to say "no" to people, they may find themselves the victims in physically and emotionally abusive relationships. They believe that if they can be good enough, or loving enough, they can change the other person's behavior. They sometimes blame themselves for the abusive behavior: "If only I had not forgotten to do the dishes, he would not have had to hit me."

Codependency causes internal struggles with the opinions of others. Codependents may make decisions based on what they think other people want them to do. While they may believe that their motive for helping people is compassion, in reality they are doing it because they want love or approval. They may come to recognize the underlying nature of their behavior when they become hurt or angry at people they have helped who didn't return the same amount of help, love, or appreciation when they themselves were in need. They have difficulty understanding that instead of helping others by providing things they need, they may actually be hurting them by creating a dependent relationship.
____________

I think this is more what I was getting at.
 
Last edited:
I think I should add that I had no idea that my thread is similar to one posted by Pure.
Seems I'm getting a bit of flack from various people.

Twysted wrote:

I can certainly see where this dynamic could exist in D/s.
As to where and how and why it could fail rely on a number of possibilities.
However....whereas in most 'nilla relationships co-dependancy is hampering and one-sidedly constricting in D/s it has a safe haven in a healthy outlet so long as the one dependant has their needs met.
In D/s, I've noticed that some forms of codependancy are naturally encouraged whether it's present initially or not. Atleast in 24/7 situations.

____________

Thanks for sharing Twysted.
The reason I asked this question is because early on in my D/s relationship I mentioned to my Dom that I felt our relationship was "co-dependent" and from the little I knew at that time, which wasn't alot about Co-D... that perhaps that wasn't such a good thing for all the above reasons.
My Dom felt that being co-dependent was nothing to worry about.
I'm just trying to understand my own feelings in all of this, and just wanted others viewpoints, if they have thought about co-dependency at all in terms of their own relationship. No biggy really.
 
Last edited:
I had to think a little bit more about Twysted's post.

one I appreciate so very much, simply because it gives me sort of a clear picture of what's going on "here". I know from reading articles on the web, that the term "co-dependent" is used in the vanilla sense and should not be used to define whats going on in a D/s relationship. I should smack myself in the head sometimes. Honestly I believe that "our" relationships are co-dependent, but the thing is what "we give" is not necessarily what "we get" in return. It may be what we "need" but not what we always "want" and it certainly isn't t fair at all times. Right?

...please don't mind my thinking more on this as I go along....
 
Good morning to you.
Did you sleep well?

I can certainly see where this dynamic could exist in D/s.
As to where and how and why it could fail rely on a number of possabilities.

However....whereas in most 'nilla relationships co-dependancy is hampering and one-sidedly constricting in D/s it has a safe haven in a healthy outlet so long as the one dependant has their needs met.

In D/s, I've noticed that some forms of codependancy are naturally encouraged whether it's present initially or not.
Atleast in 24/7 situations.

As for part-time players who need a more balanced situation where independance of self and thought are necessary for both to achieve a common, R/L goal it could be hampering.

Personally.....I rather enjoy an infusion of dependancy and addiction in my submissive.
I like to know that love and lust aren't the only things driving her need for me.
I like the thought that something "off" inside her mind acts as a pleasant back up for the other two.

Having been exposed to several forms of insanity and psychological dependancies, I have developed an appreciation for certain forms.
:rose:

Your sub is a very lucky sub!
 
I had to think a little bit more about Twysted's post.

one I appreciate so very much, simply because it gives me sort of a clear picture of what's going on "here". I know from reading articles on the web, that the term "co-dependent" is used in the vanilla sense and should not be used to define whats going on in a D/s relationship. I should smack myself in the head sometimes. Honestly I believe that "our" relationships are co-dependent, but the thing is what "we give" is not necessarily what "we get" in return. It may be what we "need" but not what we always "want" and it certainly isn't t fair at all times. Right?

...please don't mind my thinking more on this as I go along....

Not for me, but whatever works.
 
i think codependency in any kind of relationship is unhealthy. There's a huge difference between being codependent and wanting to be with someone.

i used to be codependent and i was so unhealthy and sick. You learn to manipulate, you hold on with everything you have. It's very easy to lose your partner, very easy to drive them away. i am no longer that way.


i've learned deep in my heart that if someone doesn't want to be with you, you cannot make them. You cannot make someone love you. Now, if i am in a relationship that isnt' working, i'd rather be alone. i have my pride.

Men want healthy, strong, smart women. Well, most men, not all.
 
this piece is from a larger article at www.allaboutlifechallenges.org/Codependency.htm

Codependency - What is it?

Codependency is when a person has a strong desire to control people around them, including their spouse, children or co-workers. Codependents believe they are somehow more capable than others, who need their direction or suggestions to fulfill tasks they are responsible to complete. They feel compassion for people who may be hurting and feel they should be the one to help them. Codependent people give of their time, emotions, finances, and other resources. They have a very difficult time saying "no" to any requests made of them.

Codependency - A Matter of Control

Codependency, for others, doesn't express itself in a desire to control, but instead, in the need to be controlled by others. Because it is nearly impossible for Codependents to say "no" to people, they may find themselves the victims in physically and emotionally abusive relationships. They believe that if they can be good enough, or loving enough, they can change the other person's behavior. They sometimes blame themselves for the abusive behavior: "If only I had not forgotten to do the dishes, he would not have had to hit me."

Codependency causes internal struggles with the opinions of others. Codependents may make decisions based on what they think other people want them to do. While they may believe that their motive for helping people is compassion, in reality they are doing it because they want love or approval. They may come to recognize the underlying nature of their behavior when they become hurt or angry at people they have helped who didn't return the same amount of help, love, or appreciation when they themselves were in need. They have difficulty understanding that instead of helping others by providing things they need, they may actually be hurting them by creating a dependent relationship.
____________

I think this is more what I was getting at.

I think co-dependency is a problem when it is something you are not aware of, when, as in the bolded part above your motives are not clear and are, ultimately manipulative.

Honesty and communication are the secrets, as in any relationship, for success.

A D/s or even more so a M/s relationship might look co-dependent in the dynamic, but the big difference is that both person in the relationship have chosen it and discussed it. In a successful relationship, both party have gone through some sort of soul searching that have led them to chose such a dynamic, fully aware of their needs and desires.

If what brings a pyl to submit is not the desire to please their PYL, but the hope (not discussed, just assumed) that the PYL will feel so obligated to reciprocate the same level of attention/care, I can see problems down the line. Nothing wrong with needind/wanting the attention, as far as it is communicated.
 
From the outside, I can see where some would include the mindset of the submissive in the category of a codependent. Feeling the need to find the one person to be the focus of their attention. To want above all else to please, to put the other's interests first. The difference I see is that co- dependence in its truest form can be crippling. Yet speak to any submissive who is involved and empowering is a word often used. Strength can be found in putting your efforts and thoughts into someone who is found worthy.

It may be that there is a hint of codependency in the psychological makeup of a sub. As with anything, it is the level to which you take it. So many people are quick to look at going above and beyond what the average person does as a sign of a problem. What is the problem with feeling that your life is better because of that person and making that person happy is a goal?

As a child we depend on our parents and try our best to be what they want us to be. I don't think it is so different in motivation..an extension of the love felt expressed in the best way we know how.

On the other side is taking it to the extreme. Reaching the point of feeling that you can not continue without that person is pathologically dangerous. There is nothing wrong with feeling addicted to someone but there has to be some balance even if it is not perfectly equal.
 
I think that many people are looking at the issue of co-dependency as a black and white issue where it's bad to be co-dependent and good to not be co-dependent. The very nature of D/s suggests a co-dependency to the relationship - 'co' meaning both are dependent upon the other. In order for the dominant to BE dominant, he must have someone to dominate. In order for a submissive to submit, she must have someone to submit to. It is the nature of the D/s.

Being co-dependent in a D/s relationship is not necessarily a bad thing unless it is an unhealthy co-dependence or is one-sided. That was part of my post in Pure's thread. If the s-type is emotionally invested in the relationship but the D-type is not, then there is a co-dependence problem. But if both are emotionally invested in the relationship, then you would expect some level of co-dependency because without the other, one could not exist as a D-type or s-type. Sure, I'm 'submissive' but I can't be 'a submissive' without a D-type to submit to, and vice versa.

It's so funny to me how often I hear people talk about how much a submissive needs a Dominant, but no one ever talks about how much a Dominant needs a submissive. Without a submissive, just who is a D-type supposed to dominate? His co-workers? His friends? People on the street? If he did that, then he'd just be a big bully and everyone would call him a controlling asshole. D/s can't really exist in a one-sided relationship, not and be a healthy relationship. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will disagree, who will absolutely state that D/s should be one-sided emotionally. But if the players are those 24/7 types of Doms and subs, I have a very hard time believing the relationship will survive the long term.
 
Codependency, for others, doesn't express itself in a desire to control, but instead, in the need to be controlled by others. Because it is nearly impossible for Codependents to say "no" to people, they may find themselves the victims in physically and emotionally abusive relationships. They believe that if they can be good enough, or loving enough, they can change the other person's behavior. They sometimes blame themselves for the abusive behavior: "If only I had not forgotten to do the dishes, he would not have had to hit me."

I have never been in an abusive relationship but there was a time when I would have been susceptible to this kind of emotional manipulation. I used to have a totally kamikaze approach to relationships and I would remain devoted to my SO for far longer than was healthy and even to the point where I was inviting this kind of control by being convinced that anything could be overcome if I just always did better than my best. I saw the demise of a relationship as a failure and even used to think that having failed at my last relationship made me less deserving of another one. Even if the other party was in fact more responsible for things breaking down. :rolleyes:

Codependency causes internal struggles with the opinions of others. Codependents may make decisions based on what they think other people want them to do. While they may believe that their motive for helping people is compassion, in reality they are doing it because they want love or approval. They may come to recognize the underlying nature of their behavior when they become hurt or angry at people they have helped who didn't return the same amount of help, love, or appreciation when they themselves were in need. They have difficulty understanding that instead of helping others by providing things they need, they may actually be hurting them by creating a dependent relationship.

I can see this up to a point but as a slave I have a very clear idea of what Master wants me to do in most circumstances. I'm not flying blind and making it up as I go along. My mother was a lot like this. She would do things for me that I hadn't asked for and then considered me ungrateful when I tried to tactfully explain that she shouldn't have bothered. Mum would martyr herself to these things even after I tried to explain so that she wouldn't put herself out in future doing things I didn't want her to do. I am guilty of doing too much for people I care about and I often get taken advantage of because I'm gullible enough to believe the best of people until proven spectacularly wrong. I used to get so resentful but now I'm content to be true to who I am. I'd rather do too much than too little and be too generous rather than too stingy out of suspicion and cynicism.

As far as D/s goes, I can see how some of these traits would come out in a D/s dynamic that wasn't equal and where one partner was compensating for a deficit of effort or responsibility in the other partner. It's the sort of thing Master and I monitor ourselves for and so far we've been ok.

That said, I don't know of a couple, nilla or kinked, where control and responsibility is split equally. There is always a disparity of somekind and if something tips the balance unhealthily, all of this stuff can come out. I don't think it's more an issue in D/s than in other dynamics though.
 
Last edited:
In the vanilla world people generally shoot more for a commensalism sort of relationship. They fail when one member becomes parasitic.

In D/s codependents is probably more successfully because while the sub may be parasitic, the dom is predatory. This results in a type of mutualism in which both members feed of each other and therefore both gain.
 
I wanted to clarify something just for the record.

Partners who go out of their way for each other are called "interdependant" The person who wrote this particular article states that "only relatively healthy" people are capable of interdependent relationships. Of course this makes sense.
In a "co-dependant" relationship, one partner does almost all of the giving, while the other does almost of the taking, almost all of the time.
 
Velvet Darkness wrote...

My mother would do things for me that I hadn't asked for and then considered me ungrateful when I tried to tactfully explain that she shouldn't have bothered. Mum would martyr herself to these things even after I tried to explain so that she wouldn't put herself out in future doing things I didn't want her to do. I am guilty of doing too much for people I care about and I often get taken advantage of because I'm gullible enough to believe the best of people until proven spectacularly wrong. I used to get so resentful but now I'm content to be true to who I am. I'd rather do too much than too little and be too generous rather than too stingy out of suspicion and cynicism.

I hear where you're coming from Velvet. Yanno' I've never thought of myself being a martyr type but it has been said of me, by my SO ...and in not such a nice way.
I'm still not sure how he meant it, except for my profound inability to express anger in a healthy way or maybe not being able to speak out on my own behalf if I felt ill treated. In other words putting up with it and building up huge piles of resentment (just like yourself)
It does make me happy to do things for people, of course I don't want to be taken for granted (no-one does) or have them expect more from me as a result.

My Mother had difficulty asking for help from us (2) kids. She did alot by herself and I think would have managed very well with out my Dad.
The thing with my Mom, who we loved more than anything, was that when she did ask for help, she kind of reduced our "wanting" to help by adding a small insult to her request, by saying things like "well since you aren't doing anything you can help me" or "stop being lazy and come out and help me." (Actually the "insults" were a little more hurtful)
I had no problem helping her do whatever it was, but it was the belittling that went along with it. I know it had to do with her pride and need for self reliance more than anything, she absolutely hated needing anyone.
I can't use this tactic with my own boys as a result, I think it's demeaning. I still have to find something that works for me tho' cause they don't do squat when I ask them do do something for me.

Often people do things for others because they just want to feel needed.

I have almost always chosen to see the good in people and just haven't understood why they aren't that way. I have been far too understanding and too empathetic, which hasn't gotten me anywhere thus far.
 
Last edited:
This was sent to me as part of a private PM. That person gave me permission to share it with you all.
I think it's perfect....
_____________

A story that I heard from a Buddhist monk -

To shed light on the way to work with relationships, he spoke about his hands. How - because he was righthanded - his right hand did all the work, but never complained that his left hand didn't do its share. And his left hand never complained that the right hand was getting all the attention. Instead, his two hands worked together to get the job done, perfectly coordinated.

He went on to describe a moment when he was hanging a picture on the wall, and in a rather unskillful way, hit his left thumb with the hammer. At that moment, the right hand immediately dropped the hammer and comforted the left hand, and the left hand accepted the comfort, without picking up the hammer and striking back at the right hand.

For some reason, this story made me laugh and laugh. And it allowed me to see my husband and I as two hands of one body. (I believe the message was ultimately that we're all deeply connected.)

Staying honest with oneself about the nature of our desires in the rocky landscape of these power relationships is a tricky path. I know that I wanted a man to relieve me of responsibilities of my own that I didn't think I could handle. But, in truth, I am really serving my husband well when I am taking responsibility not only for pleasing him but for taking care of myself as well. Then, I have found he shares himself more freely, and I get to experience his real pleasure, his smile, his openness, his sexuality, and his vulnerability, instead of the masculine mask he wears when he's afraid.


Isn't that beautiful.......
 
Last edited:
BeachGurl2 wrote...

It's so funny to me how often I hear people talk about how much a submissive needs a Dominant, but no one ever talks about how much a Dominant needs a submissive. Without a submissive, just who is a D-type supposed to dominate? His co-workers? His friends? People on the street? If he did that, then he'd just be a big bully and everyone would call him a controlling asshole. D/s can't really exist in a one-sided relationship, not and be a healthy relationship. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will disagree, who will absolutely state that D/s should be one-sided emotionally. But if the players are those 24/7 types of Doms and subs, I have a very hard time believing the relationship will survive the long term.

Well said BG2. I have one question for you and I know you didn't mean this to be taken literally.
you wrote....

"....just who is a D-type supposed to dominate? His co-workers? His friends? People on the street? If he did that, then he'd just be a big bully and everyone would call him a controlling asshole.

right.......

..because not everyone who works for a D-type is submissive nor do they want to submit to that Dominant on the job, or where-ever else, since it isn't part of the day to day dynamics, unless of course he is their "boss" and they have to, as a matter of course.... BUT ...and I ask this jokingly...does this mean that your Dom is a bullying and controlling sorta guy? *winkin'

I feel that my guy really has to control his natural Dominance on the job, especially when he's working with a couple of idiots (his words) who just don't seem to get it.
Needless to say, he works better when he's supervising or managing.
I'm just so good at being his sounding board....argggh!

Partners in D/s should be "interdependent" on each other. One never giving more than they should nor the other taking just because they can....
 
Last edited:
I think "symbiotic relationship" may be the phrase we're looking for here, rather than co-dependence.
 
From the outside, I can see where some would include the mindset of the submissive in the category of a codependent. Feeling the need to find the one person to be the focus of their attention. To want above all else to please, to put the other's interests first. The difference I see is that co- dependence in its truest form can be crippling. Yet speak to any submissive who is involved and empowering is a word often used. Strength can be found in putting your efforts and thoughts into someone who is found worthy.

It may be that there is a hint of codependency in the psychological makeup of a sub. As with anything, it is the level to which you take it. So many people are quick to look at going above and beyond what the average person does as a sign of a problem. What is the problem with feeling that your life is better because of that person and making that person happy is a goal?

As a child we depend on our parents and try our best to be what they want us to be. I don't think it is so different in motivation..an extension of the love felt expressed in the best way we know how.

On the other side is taking it to the extreme. Reaching the point of feeling that you can not continue without that person is pathologically dangerous. There is nothing wrong with feeling addicted to someone but there has to be some balance even if it is not perfectly equal.
__________

So true and I agree 100%. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling that our lives are better with our "special person" It is because we love them and want them to be happy...that we want to please them in every way possible.

The more I mull over some of the ideas presented here, I see the difference of being co-dependent and being "healthy." I see me to some degree.


The Co-dep. person needs to have their partners approval, they give and give, yet feel undeserving if they receive anything in return. They feel they are not entitled or worthy.

They try to control others thoughts, feelings and behaviour,yet they feel hurt when other's don't reciprocate.

They can't stand it when others are angry or disappointed with them.

Giving allows them to feel useful and justifies their existence.

If they were to look inside themselves, they would find their emotional starvation.They are busy taking care of others yet they do not meet their own needs.

... and yes co-dependency in it's truest form is definitely crippling. It's when a person begins to get sick physically, emotionally that a problem exists. They neglect their own health and well being for the sake of others...and deep inside they are very angry people...grrrrr ! :mad:

I think we have all been there at some time in our lives.
 
Good morning....

I've been doing alot of reading lately and struggling with this issue for quite a while. Do any of you feel that your D/s relationship with your PYL might be co-dependant? I mean in the classic sense of co-dependency, where you are giving more than you should and they are giving you less than you feel is your due. That you often ignore your own RL problems to take care of your partner's issues.

- a situation where the healthy "give and take" necessary for an emotionally strong relationship is absent. ...but, that it's ok because you are a giving, supportive and understanding individual and you feel that your needs are just not as important as theirs.

Would co-dependency be expected as part of the normal functioning in a D/s or Master/slave relationship?

Do you think that many D/s relationships fail because they are co-dependent and one or the other partner just doesn't realize it or just doesn't care until it's too late and they wonder what went wrong?

You know, sometimes, I've felt this way as well. In quite a few relationships. I think it depends on what you mean by a D/S relationship? Just in bed? Or 24/7?

In the case of bed only, I think the 'nilla' co-dependency remains. Just because you like to play certain games in bed does not mean you have to be like that in RL. 24/7, it could be quite different (not that I would know).

I imagine the 24/7 style is very difficult to pull off, because people over time, change, and one day, a dominant might not be dominant anymore, or vice versa.

For me, I would do anything, for my woman. She likes to be dominated, but not out of the bed, and I respect that. She knows she has my love and support. She has a tough job being a working mother. Lately, I have felt like I had to step back because I was putting myself too far forward for her, and making her uncomfortable.

You know, another thing, in a casual relationship, I imagine co-dependency isn't that important, because the people involved might not love each other. I think when you love somebody, the rules change, because you actually care about that somebody.

Sigh.. off on another ramble.
 
Last edited:
More fodder to chew on....

The central concept here is that the "co-dependant" person takes it and understands, despite feeling hurt..perhaps waiting for "brownie points in heaven" or for the loved one to be magically healed through their persistant love and care that they give to their partners.
Often they have grown up in a negative emotional climate, due to illness, addiction, anger or other problems. Being loyal to a fault, they rationalize a loved ones disrespectful behaviour by making excuses for them saying..."he doesn't mean it" or..."she has had such an awful childhood"... etc. etc.

I think what I'm getting at is this.... alot of people (not all, mind you, but many) that I have met through groups or play parties have "issues". Some have found the "play" part therapeutic, consenting to some sort of physical "act" in order to re-enact the abuse they received as a child, teen, adult, whenever the abuse may have occurred. (I use the term abuse very lightly here.)
In severe cases rape is a big big issue as well as incestuous acts committed by a male member of the family. Some of these women become Dommes, taking on the role of the abuser.

OK so, for those people who have endured emotional or psychological abuse growing up, is the D/s part of this stuff maybe therapeutic? That's where I'm coming from, in case anyone wondered.

Now, as you all know "abuse" comes in many shapes and forms and what is labelled abuse out there in the vanilla world may not be the case at all in D/s or the BDSM lifestyle.

My question to you is....is this really true? Isn't a spade still a spade?

When I first learned of D/s it was through the Excite chat rooms. I wandered into a submissive room one day and thought how comfortable I felt, how nice everyone was...I was just like the other women there (well some of them *s)
So here I am 10 years later. I'm not that same person anymore. Id like to think I've grown wiser and become more assertive...well... a bit wiser about being submissive.
So, I'm guessing that all of this has helped open my eyes to the kind of woman I am, have been...and likely will be in the future. I just need some polish..chuckles.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top