Song Legality Question

[3113]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I wasn't sure how to search for the question:

How much of a song can a writer put into their story before it becomes a legal problem? That is, before the writer of the song, if seeing it, gets mad at the reference.

Obviously, I can have a character humming "Hey, Jude," or mention that he was singing though the "Na-na-nah's" of that song. But how many of the lyrics can I actually have him saying?

The issue is that of known song lyrics, sung to someone by a character in the story.

Any help very much appreciated.

 

[cloudy]

Laurel's answer was 50% of the lyrics.

 

[3113]

Laurel's answer was 50% of the lyrics.

So take the entire song, and cut it in half? Hm. That's quite a lot more than I thought. So if we have Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, we could quote quite a lot of the song?

 

[cloudy]

So take the entire song, and cut it in half? Hm. That's quite a lot more than I thought. So if we have Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, we could quote quite a lot of the song?

Apparently so. I've never used more than one verse of lyrics in any of my stories, except for one, and that song was an OLD Creole folk song sung at funerals...way past time for copyright to expire.

 

[TE999]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I wasn't sure how to search for the question:

How much of a song can a writer put into their story before it becomes a legal problem? That is, before the writer of the song, if seeing it, gets mad at the reference.

Obviously, I can have a character humming "Hey, Jude," or mention that he was singing though the "Na-na-nah's" of that song. But how many of the lyrics can I actually have him saying?

The issue is that of known song lyrics, sung to someone by a character in the story.

Any help very much appreciated.

I used 2 full lyric stanzas of 'Moonlight Serenade' in my story "Kelly's Moonlight Serenade" and it was posted without difficulty.

 

[3113]

I used 2 full lyric stanzas of 'Moonlight Serenade' in my story "Kelly's Moonlight Serenade" and it was posted without difficulty.

I'm not so much worried about a story being posted here on Lit as I am about lyrics being quoted in stories for publication or e-publications; it would make a difference, I think, if someone actually paid for the story, but the story publisher/writer did not pay the musician for their copyrighted lyrics.

 

[sr71plt]

Industry standard is two lines. This Web site hasn't shown a great deal of knowledge of industry-recognized standards of copyright. Use more than two lines at your own legal peril (although chances are very slim that you'd be caught/sued for using more).

 

[Darkniciad]

I'm not so much worried about a story being posted here on Lit as I am about lyrics being quoted in stories for publication or e-publications; it would make a difference, I think, if someone actually paid for the story, but the story publisher/writer did not pay the musician for their copyrighted lyrics.

For the purposes of paid publication, there really isn't anything that constitutes "fair use".

Really, even putting lyrics into a story here doesn't qualify as fair use, because that's for scholarly pursuits and reference ( unless you're talking about a review/essay ) Fiction doesn't qualify. It's just more likely to be ignored when you aren't making any money off of it.

If the artist stumbles across the work and decides that they're offended, then they can take action - and you will lose.

If you're talking about an erotic story, then you're certainly at risk.

 

[MagicaPractica]

Something from the Writer's Digest forums about this. Someone suggested referencing the title of the song instead of quoting the lyrics.

http://forum.writersdigest.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18046&posts=35&start=1

 

[3113]

Something from the Writer's Digest forums about this. Someone suggested referencing the title of the song instead of quoting the lyrics.

That's all well and good, but if the lyrics include some important, element that hits home, like say, "I'm your love slave..." --words that are no where in the title, then it hardly helps to mention the song title. You want those lyrics so that you character can gasp as they feel those words hit them like a hammer (and/or so that the reader can nod at how very apt the song is).

 

[sr71plt]

That's all well and good, but if the lyrics include some important, element that hits home, like say, "I'm your love slave..." --words that are no where in the title, then it hardly helps to mention the song title. You want those lyrics so that you character can gasp as they feel those words hit them like a hammer (and/or so that the reader can nod at how very apt the song is).

True enough. But copyright protection isn't about what the "user" wants or what is convenient for them. It's about what the copyright owner can successfully sue for. Again, there's a 99 percent chance you can get away with using more than two lines (total--and only if the lyrics are at least ten lines long) in a story here. There's almost no chance the owner will ever see it here and even less of a chance they'd bother to try to track you down and sue you for something that couldn't show any profit. However, if anyone here (including the Web site administrators) tells you you are "safe" to use more than two lines (total), they are talking through their hat--and it isn't them at risk; it's you.

 

[3113]

There's almost no chance the owner will ever see it here and even less of a chance they'd bother to try to track you down and sue you for something that couldn't show any profit. However, if anyone here (including the Web site administrators) tells you you are "safe" to use more than two lines (total), they are talking through their hat--and it isn't them at risk; it's you.

Fair 'nuff. I asked, and I thank you all for giving it to me straight. You're quite right that there's no reason for the writer or copyright holder of the lyrics to care about my story.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's all well and good, but if the lyrics include some important, element that hits home, like say, "I'm your love slave..." --words that are no where in the title, then it hardly helps to mention the song title. You want those lyrics so that you character can gasp as they feel those words hit them like a hammer (and/or so that the reader can nod at how very apt the song is).

I write brand new fictitious lyrics for the purposes of the story, if the words are that important.

Other than that, something I just read had the main character withstand torture by singing Sesame Street songs in his head-- The other character would ask him what he was humming, and he'd say; "Rubber Ducky" or "Captain Vegetable". Which was beyond the other character's comprehension. there were two lines quoted of "the Llama Song" but no more than that, and it worked very well all in all!

 

[DesertPirate]

Fair 'nuff. I asked, and I thank you all for giving it to me straight. You're quite right that there's no reason for the writer or copyright holder of the lyrics to care about my story.

Double check with Jake Rivers and DG Hear, they have written several stories with songs as the basis. I'm pretty sure Jake checked out the legalities.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I always thought it was eight bars...anymore than that and royalties have to be paid.

 

[starrkers]

Stanford University's take

 

[rengadeirishman]

well i took a few lines for my raspberry beret remix story (http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=332086) and there was no problems

 

[sr71plt]

Stanford University's take

*sigh* This source is about how to obtain permissions, not whether permissions are needed. (And it also touches on Fair Use, which, as has already been noted here, doesn't apply).

You won't find any flat, authoritative statement of the amount of material you can use without permission in law, because the law has never specified how much. It's all a matter of risk mitigation based on the laws of probability, tempered by historical precedent. The publishing industry, in general, has determined that 50 words of a prose document (except for literary criticism analysis which tolerates a greater amount) or two lines of lyrics are what is "safe"--in both cases, with the source being clearly identified. There's no law giving a user rights to anything without having permissions in hand; they just have never had a suit at this level, so this is the level they consider safe.

In any case, you accept risk whenever you use any copyrighted material without prior permission, and the risk increases along with the increase in the amount of material you use (and the purpose you use it for--with "forprofit" and "for porn" being high on the suit radar).

If you start pointing to URLs on this, there isn't any more authoritative source on U.S. law/usage than the U.S. Copyright office at http://www.copyright.gov. There's no reason to start anywhere else to claim what "the answer" is.

 

[sr71plt]

well i took a few lines for my raspberry beret remix story (http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=332086) and there was no problems

How do you know? The copyright owner could sue you at any moment between now and the day the material is pulled off the site.

A lot of naivete here on how copyright works.

 

[rengadeirishman]

How do you know? The copyright owner could sue you at any moment between now and the day the material is pulled off the site.

A lot of naivete here on how copyright works.

thank odin your here to enlighten us poor savages

 

[starrkers]

*sigh* This source is about how to obtain permissions, not whether permissions are needed. (And it also touches on Fair Use, which, as has already been noted here, doesn't apply).

You won't find any flat, authoritative statement of the amount of material you can use without permission in law, because the law has never specified how much. It's all a matter of risk mitigation based on the laws of probability, tempered by historical precedent. The publishing industry, in general, has determined that 50 words of a prose document (except for literary criticism analysis which tolerates a greater amount) or two lines of lyrics are what is "safe"--in both cases, with the source being clearly identified. There's no law giving a user rights to anything without having permissions in hand; they just have never had a suit at this level, so this is the level they consider safe.

In any case, you accept risk whenever you use any copyrighted material without prior permission, and the risk increases along with the increase in the amount of material you use (and the purpose you use it for--with "forprofit" and "for porn" being high on the suit radar).

If you start pointing to URLs on this, there isn't any more authoritative source on U.S. law/usage than the U.S. Copyright office at http://www.copyright.gov. There's no reason to start anywhere else to claim what "the answer" is.

Sorry for stirring your ulcer, sr. I know this is about fair use. It even explains what fair use is. I figured people here would be intelligent enough to figure that fair use doesn't apply to using lyrics in a work of fiction, and extrapolate from there that this par

Generally, we recommend a conservative approach. Unless you are certain that the material is in the public domain or that your use is legally excusable, we advise you to seek permission. If you are not sure, you'll have to either make your own risk assessment analysis or obtain the advice of an attorney knowledgeable in copyright or media law. As explained throughout this book, an informed decision will lower your risks of proceeding without permission.

is probably of vital importance and, therefore, knowledge of how to obtain permission might just be useful.

 

[sr71plt]

thank odin your here to enlighten us poor savages

Oh, you can live in your false sense of entitlement as far as I'm concerned. It's entirely your risk. I think it is, in fact, nice of me to take the time to let you know that you maybe don't have a clue what you're dealing with on this--but it's your head on the chopping block, not mine. (And I've noted that the probability of actually getting into trouble over it is close to nil; it's just a matter that you don't have any protection against that slight possibility--and seem to want to fool yourself--and, worse, others--into thinking that you do)

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry for stirring your ulcer, sr.

Yes, it stirs my ulcer--because folks insist on wishful thinking protections that just aren't there. It looks like something is there because almost no one is getting sued for anything--but that's not a function of rights/protection/absense of risk; it's a function of owners of the material not knowing what's being used/not thinking it worth their while to do anything about it. Which can change on a dime (bloggers are beginning to be sued now for this).

And it stirs my ulcer because folks here scream bloody murder when their stories are stolen and slapped on another Web site, but they don't think twice about stealing all or portions of works by others and slapping them on this Web site.

 

[rengadeirishman]

Oh, you can live in your false sense of entitlement as far as I'm concerned. It's entirely your risk. I think it is, in fact, nice of me to take the time to let you know that you maybe don't have a clue what you're dealing with on this--but it's your head on the chopping block, not mine. (And I've noted that the probability of actually getting into trouble over it is close to nil; it's just a matter that you don't have any protection against that slight possibility--and seem to want to fool yourself--and, worse, others--into thinking that you do)

whats life without risk?

 

[starrkers]

Yes, it stirs my ulcer--because folks insist on wishful thinking protections that just aren't there. It looks like something is there because almost no one is getting sued for anything--but that's not a function of rights/protection/absense of risk; it's a function of owners of the material not knowing what's being used/not thinking it worth their while to do anything about it. Which can change on a dime (bloggers are beginning to be sued now for this).

Yes, at times the laissez faire attitude of the site owners worries me. The day has to come when it pops up on someone's radar, and then there could be a lot of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I know there's a couple of stories (fan fic stuff) that potentially could get me in trouble, but I also know the owners of that copyright don't mind fan fics, even erotic ones, and get a giggle from some of them, considering it all good publicity. Which is very lucky for me

And it stirs my ulcer because folks here scream bloody murder when their stories are stolen and slapped on another Web site, but they don't think twice about stealing all or portions of works by others and slapping them on this Web site.

Ah, now, that's where we differ - that little double standard makes me just smile and shake my head.