What a difference a President can make...June 6, 1944/September 11, 2001

[amicus]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080605/ts_alt_afp/entertainmentfranceusattacksexhibit_080605133504



by Carole Landry Thu Jun 5, 9:35 AM ET

CAEN, France (AFP) - A French history museum dedicated to the World War II D-Day landings is set to unveil the largest exhibit to date on another event that changed the world: the September 11, 2001 attacks.

"September 11: A Global Moment" opens Friday at the Caen memorial museum on a day that for decades had been reserved for the solemn commemoration of the Allied landings in Normandy on June 6, 1944...

~~~

Surfing back and forth between Fox News at the 3pm hour here, Brit Hume, and the Francis Ford Coppola film, "Secret Garden", when I heard a moving news item about the above event.

Rather curious turnaround for the French from the previous "Freedom Fries" era, of anti US bias.

But after all, it was the French Fleet that came to the assistance of the Colonist's in the Revolutionary War against the greatest Colonial power in the world, Great Britain.

My how times change.

Amicus the irrepressible...

 

[JagFarlane]

Yes, it was the French Navy, and the loan of one Lafayette that helped change the tide of the Revolutionary War....

They were also our enemies during the French and Indian War

We helped finance Napoleon via the Louisiana Purchase during the French Civil War

They were deemed the lesser of two evils when both their Navy and the British Navy were impressing our sailors into working for them and stealing our ships just before the War of 1812.

We helped them to fight in Europe during WWI and WWII

And they forwarned us to not fight in Vietnam as we set our sights there

Its always been an interesting, and long lived relationship with France, as it has with many countries. One of our proudest symbols, after all, was a gift from France, that same symbol that means more about freedom than any freedom fries or what-not. Sometimes we just...tend to forget these things and let differences get in the way of recalling long time bonds that tie our countries together. Their people have died on our soil fighting for our freedom, ours have died on their soil fighting for freedom.

 

[amicus]

Thank you, Jag, a nice post.

One thing, although memory may be failing me here, it seems I recall the French asked for help in Dien Bien Phu, was it not, as they occupied the area after the Japanese were evicted?

Ami...

 

[JagFarlane]

Thank you, Jag, a nice post.

One thing, although memory may be failing me here, it seems I recall the French asked for help in Dien Bien Phu, was it not, as they occupied the area after the Japanese were evicted?

Ami...

Battle of Dien Bien Phu

You would be correct...we assisted them financially with the effort, and two American civilian pilots died whilst trying to resupply the outpost. We also offered the French two nuclear bombs to try and clear a way for the outpost to be evacuated

 

[amicus]

Thank you for the link, Jag, I hope others will browse it.

It does add to my long standing point concerning SEATO involvement in Southeast Asia as a surrogate battlefield to combat Chinese and Russian Communism in the area.

It seems unreal that people in these times have forgotten the dynamics of the world following the re-arrangement of power following the world war.

Amicus...

 

[JagFarlane]

Thank you for the link, Jag, I hope others will browse it.

It does add to my long standing point concerning SEATO involvement in Southeast Asia as a surrogate battlefield to combat Chinese and Russian Communism in the area.

It seems unreal that people in these times have forgotten the dynamics of the world following the re-arrangement of power following the world war.

Amicus...

-nods- As I recall there were reports of US pilots going into dogfights with Chinese and eventually Russian pilots over the skies of Korea. Hell, the reason we didn't let MacArthur continue the campaign in Korea was due to provoking the full Chinese army. Not that we weren't already fighting them in Korea, and eventually in Vietnam/Laos.

 

[amicus]

MacArthur and Truman are a story in themselves as regards Korea. Although, at the time, as American boys were being killed by ChiComs, I saw no reason not to cross the Yalu and kick some ass.

Gads, one never knows the direction a thread might take. This was intended as a pre D-Day piece as I doubt anyone else will start one.

Thank you once again...


Ami

 

[JagFarlane]

MacArthur and Truman are a story in themselves as regards Korea. Although, at the time, as American boys were being killed by ChiComs, I saw no reason not to cross the Yalu and kick some ass.

Gads, one never knows the direction a thread might take. This was intended as a pre D-Day piece as I doubt anyone else will start one.

Thank you once again...


Ami

-chuckles- Threads do have a life of their own.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/75_Ranger_Regiment_Coat_Of_Arms.PNG

https://www.infantry.army.mil/infantrygraphics/content/infantry_hall/statue01.jpg

https://www.infantry.army.mil/infantrygraphics/content/infantry_hall/IMG_0812.JPG

"Rangers, lead the way!" - Brig. General Norman D. Cota, Pointe Du Hoc June 6, 1944

 

[keeblercrumb]

Interesting thread.... I was initially stunned by Amicus' moment of clarity as evidenced by the title of the thread... but he/you are right of course.

As for the pesky French.... While we certainly SHOULD have been forewarned by the French experience in Indo-china (a geopolitical creation of theirs!).. it was THEY who dragged us into the struggle which put us uncomfortably on the side of the colonial oppressors we had led the fight against for 200 years on the planet...

In WWII, it was our OSS which armed, trained and supported the Viet Minh in the fight against the Japanese. They fully expected, even in their Marxist zeal, that we would support their struggle for independence as the rest of the world was rapidly being freed from the yoke of the European colonial powers...

Instead we colluded with the British to actually re-arm the surrendering Japanese troops to "hold the fort" until the French army could arrive... which they did until Dien Bien Phu..

Despite their occasional independent (and very rational) thought, such as their refusal to join us in the Iraq debacle, the French continue to honor American's support in both World Wars.. I have spent numerous days over the last 15 years touring these memorials and battlefields in France to the American sacrifice for them... and I have barely scratched the surface. It never fails to well my eyes up in patriotic pride.

And there can be no doubt we owe our independence to their support... never mind the motivation for it (any excuse to humiliate the British)... even as we owe our traditions of Freedom and Democracy to those same Imperial masters they helped us to escape.

Again... a good and interesting thread. Thanks.

But I am not so impressed as to think this fleeting insight by Amicus will survive for long.... doomed to be swallowed by his obsession with a past that never was.

But damn, my Old Spice smelling friend.. What a difference a President can make...June 6, 1944/September 11, 2001

You got that right!

-KC

 

[JagFarlane]

One of truly global support. The following countries participated in the landing:

America
Great Britain
Canada
Australia
Belgium
Czechoslovakia
France
The Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland

 

[colddiesel]

An elderly Frenchman at Caen the year before last told me that his generation would never recover from the shame of their weak effort in WWII.

In particular, he pointed out that firstly there were more Poles and more Norwegians than Frenchman in the D day landings and his second point was that the French resistence was 90 % the French Communist party. He said men of his generation had no pride at all because they had achieved so little for them selves. It seems a shame that still affected him 60 years later.

 

[amicus]

Hey, Cookie Crumbs! I had to chuckle at your reference to Old Spice, I think no one else had a response, besides that, like Bluebell, it shows you are a Lurker at heart and I appreciate that.

I regret that you perceive my 'obsession with a past that never was', it isn't so much the variegated history of Capitalism I promote, rather the concept of a free market, which is truly fascinating for me against the backdrop of history.

But, today is Disembarkation Day, a remembrance of the largest invasion fleet in human history and a turning point that could easily have failed.

A tip of the hat to that 'marvelous' generation, our parents and grandparents, that saved the world from another dark age.

Amicus...

 

[colddiesel]

Red Alert

A tip of the hat to that 'marvelous' generation, our parents and grandparents, that saved the world from another dark age.

Amicus...

Can we take it Ami that your admiration extends to the magnificent resistance and fighting prowess of the Soviet Red Army?

 

[keeblercrumb]

Can we take it Ami that your admiration extends to the magnificent resistance and fighting prowess of the Soviet Red Army?

Not long after I arrived here in Russia some 6 years ago... our office had another of those frequent vodka chug-a-lugs but the occasion on this evening was Victory Day (May 9th in Russia.. a major holiday).

Given my own hobby of Military History, I soon found myself in a far ranging discussion with a number of our staff who had formerly been senior officers in the Red Army (Rocket Forces). Their "history education" had been in the Soviet era (it is doubtful the curriculum on THAT subject has changed any!) and, not surprisingly, drew very different conclusions then held by most Americans and Brits (each with their OWN versions) (But the Americans have the final definitive source of information in Hollywood, so that argument is long one)..

As anyone who has taken the subject of World War II seriously would know, it was clear the Soviets bore the far heavier burden in the victory over Germany..at least 25-30 million having died in the war.

Moreover, the western allies never faced more than 30% of Wehrmacht, (tho in the Battle of the Bulge, it was the very best the troops and equipment the Germans could muster)... the vast bulk being arrayed against the ever growing Red Army.

Having acknowledged all that in our discussion, I was confronted with a couple of historical conclusions, Soviet version.

"Had they allies invaded France in 1943 instead of 1944, the war would have ended a year earlier"

I retorted "And if Stalin had not signed the treaty with Hitler to occupy Poland, there may not have been a damned war"

"By June of 1944, the Red Army had essentially won the war and the Allies just walked into Germany."

I wryly noted that "A hundred thousand (at least) Americans died on that "walk"..."

But more to the point... the Americans who died in Europe did so in the support of an ideal, and NOT, like most of the other allies, in direct defense of their native country. To my mind, that makes their ultimate sacrifice all the more heroic.

Just a little perspective on the Red Army... whatever Ami thinks.

-KC

 

[amicus]

[

QUOTE=colddiesel;27506053]Can we take it Ami that your admiration extends to the magnificent resistance and fighting prowess of the Soviet Red Army?

[/QUOTE]


~~~

Keebler recited some historical accuracies plus some anecdotal enlightenment; appreciated.

Not sure, colddiesel, what your motive is here, except as a petty, pejorative one. Next perhaps you will ask about the valiant and intrepid Japanese soldiers and sailors t hat conquered half a world?

More to the point perhaps would be the British people and the Blitz of London and other industrial cities. Further, I have read diaries of German soldiers, some, near the end, sixteen years old who fought and died for their 'homeland'.

So...what is your point, really?

I thought so.

Amicus...

 

[jomar]

A tip of the hat, indeed.

The older I get the more appreciation I have for those who have served.

 

[colddiesel]

[

~~~

Keebler recited some historical accuracies plus some anecdotal enlightenment; appreciated.

Not sure, colddiesel, what your motive is here, except as a petty, pejorative one. Next perhaps you will ask about the valiant and intrepid Japanese soldiers and sailors t hat conquered half a world?

More to the point perhaps would be the British people and the Blitz of London and other industrial cities. Further, I have read diaries of German soldiers, some, near the end, sixteen years old who fought and died for their 'homeland'.

So...what is your point, really?

I thought so.

Amicus...[/QUOTE]

Quite simply this Amicus. The Russian soldier was one of our allies as much as any other .They fought and died in their millions on our side. They deserve our recognition too. We rarely give it to them. As I recollect the Germans and the Japanese were the enemy.

Your political opposition to Soviet Russia seems to blind you to the fact that The Red Army and its soldiery were the most important factor in winning the war in Europe.

I am a political conservative but I hope objective enough to recognise that fact.

As for the inferences you erroneously try to draw from my comments do as you please. I suspect your opinions carry little weight either here or anywhere else.

 

[JagFarlane]

~~~

Keebler recited some historical accuracies plus some anecdotal enlightenment; appreciated.

Not sure, colddiesel, what your motive is here, except as a petty, pejorative one. Next perhaps you will ask about the valiant and intrepid Japanese soldiers and sailors t hat conquered half a world?

More to the point perhaps would be the British people and the Blitz of London and other industrial cities. Further, I have read diaries of German soldiers, some, near the end, sixteen years old who fought and died for their 'homeland'.

So...what is your point, really?

I thought so.

Amicus...

Quite simply this Amicus. The Russian soldier was one of our allies as much as any other .They fought and died in their millions on our side. They deserve our recognition too. We rarely give it to them. As I recollect the Germans and the Japanese were the enemy.

Your political opposition to Soviet Russia seems to blind you to the fact that The Red Army and its soldiery were the most important factor in winning the war in Europe.

I am a political conservative but I hope objective enough to recognise that fact.

As for the inferences you erroneously try to draw from my comments do as you please. I suspect your opinions carry little weight either here or anywhere else.[/QUOTE]

The most important factor? Hmmmm I'll have to argue that one. An important factor I agree.

The reason that the war was won, is many fold. Initially, Soviet Russia had signed an agreement to not get into the war with Germany and to recognize thier taking of Poland as reclaiming Prussia. The greed and foolishness of Hitler in thinking he could fight the war on two fronts is part of his downfall. Many of your millions of Russians that died, died on Russian soil to reclaim their homeland, important yes. Combine this with the valiant effort of the RAF in keeping the Germans out of Britain, as well as the French Resistance for their work in scouting out the German positions, the OSS for devising trickery to fool Hitler and his generals [Except Rommel] into thinking that the invasion would happen in a spot other than Normandy, the Allied victories in Northern Africa, the invasions in Italy, the Italians overthrowing Mussolini, really shall I go on, perhaps discuss conveys? You have a large number of factors, all important towards winning the war, its not that easy to just out an say the "most important" then site a number of dead Russian soldiers, whom I remind you, fought to save their own homeland first. Were they heroes? Yes. Is it important to note their participation? Yes.

You may be a political conservative, but you are coming off as very slanted towards Russian participation. Yes, approx 10.7 million Russians died, some of this due to poor equipment to start [The T-34 tank though, was superior to the Panzer] and the belief to send troops en masse to fight. If you look at the Republic of China, they lost approx 16.2 million civilians during the fight for the Pacific, would you argue them the most important factor in the Pacific, where honestly the US with a little help from Russia won?

 

[colddiesel]

Quite simply this Amicus. The Russian soldier was one of our allies as much as any other .They fought and died in their millions on our side. They deserve our recognition too. We rarely give it to them. As I recollect the Germans and the Japanese were the enemy.

Your political opposition to Soviet Russia seems to blind you to the fact that The Red Army and its soldiery were the most important factor in winning the war in Europe.

I am a political conservative but I hope objective enough to recognise that fact.

As for the inferences you erroneously try to draw from my comments do as you please. I suspect your opinions carry little weight either here or anywhere else.

The most important factor? Hmmmm I'll have to argue that one. An important factor I agree.

The reason that the war was won, is many fold. Initially, Soviet Russia had signed an agreement to not get into the war with Germany and to recognize thier taking of Poland as reclaiming Prussia. The greed and foolishness of Hitler in thinking he could fight the war on two fronts is part of his downfall. Many of your millions of Russians that died, died on Russian soil to reclaim their homeland, important yes. Combine this with the valiant effort of the RAF in keeping the Germans out of Britain, as well as the French Resistance for their work in scouting out the German positions, the OSS for devising trickery to fool Hitler and his generals [Except Rommel] into thinking that the invasion would happen in a spot other than Normandy, the Allied victories in Northern Africa, the invasions in Italy, the Italians overthrowing Mussolini, really shall I go on, perhaps discuss conveys? You have a large number of factors, all important towards winning the war, its not that easy to just out an say the "most important" then site a number of dead Russian soldiers, whom I remind you, fought to save their own homeland first. Were they heroes? Yes. Is it important to note their participation? Yes.

You may be a political conservative, but you are coming off as very slanted towards Russian participation. Yes, approx 10.7 million Russians died, some of this due to poor equipment to start [The T-34 tank though, was superior to the Panzer] and the belief to send troops en masse to fight. If you look at the Republic of China, they lost approx 16.2 million civilians during the fight for the Pacific, would you argue them the most important factor in the Pacific, where honestly the US with a little help from Russia won?[/QUOTE]


REPLY

I don't think my view of Russian involvement is as slanted as you suggest. Unfortunately in the West most of us remain ignorant of what happened on the Eastern Front I haven't got time to write an essay so will just make two basic points:-

Firstly The Russians were the first army to beat the Germans in any significant engagement that being the Battle of Moscow in 1941.

I would argue for Russian military primacy based only on the battle of Kursk in July and August 1943 Firstly this battle was the greatest clash of mobile armour in history. Secondly it was also the largest air battle in history. Thirdly it was the greatest engagement of infantry in history and finally the artillery and other weaponry on both sides utilised more materiel than all of the other 2nd World WarII land battles aggregated together - This really was the mother of all battles.

However, it is not just on the grounds of its astonishing magnitude that it was of paramount importance. It was also the turning point, Germany never won another significant engagement and the Russian steamroller started westwards 9 months before their western allies even landed in Europe. (There is quite a good short descrption of the battle in Wiki.)

A couple of small points(I can't help myself) . You are right about the T34 tank though at Kursk their strategic direction wasn't all that good and the Russians won largely through excellent artillery and preparation.

Personally I wouldn't give even limited credit to the Russians at all so far as the war against Japan is concerned. They didn't even declare war on Japan until eight days before the war ended!

Interestingly if you speak to Chinese historians they will contend that they beat the Japanese on land wheras the US beat them at sea and in the air!! Obviously opinion is shaped far more by national outlook than anyobjective analysis.