CPR and First Aid?

[SweetErika]

I took a free CPR and Basic First Aid class that was being offered by the Red Cross this weekend. It's something I've wanted to do for a long time, but quite frankly, the classes I've seen advertised were always kind of expensive and I never made time for them.

Anyway, the class was a little over two hours and while the video we had to watch was pretty cheesy, I found the overall experience very interesting and empowering. The Red Cross volunteer instructors were all extremely nice, knowledgeable and did their best to make it a fun, easy, informative experience, too.

It got me wondering if a lot of people know CPR and basic first aid (for choking, accidents, heart attacks, etc.), and have actually had to use it at some point.

Do you know CPR? If so, are you up on the current standards (there are different philosophies, but the Red Cross currently advocates cycles of 30 compressions in 18 seconds with 2 breaths)?

If not, is it something you want to learn?

Have you ever been in a situation where someone needed this kind of first aid? If so, did you give CPR, help someone who was choking, or otherwise aid the victim(s)?

There's a poll, but I'm really interested in hearing experiences.

 

[elib257]

I think it's a really important skill to have. I did a course at Brownies and I'm sure I found it really helpful but I know that I wouldn't feel confident enough to use any of the skills now - after hearing horror stories about broken sternums etc.

Over the weekend I came upon a man who was so drunk he'd collapsed on the street. I don't know if he had anybody with him but they weren't around so I put him in the recovery position and checked his ABC's whilst my friends rang for an ambulance. I don't know what I would have done if he wasn't breathing or anything but thank god he was okay. The ambulance came within a couple of minutes and we were on our way.

Thanks for reminding me that I might need to brush up on those skills Erika.

 

[SweetErika]

I think it's a really important skill to have. I did a course at Brownies and I'm sure I found it really helpful but I know that I wouldn't feel confident enough to use any of the skills now - after hearing horror stories about broken sternums etc.

How old were you when you learned it? Here, I don't think they teach it to anyone under 12, but I could be wrong about that.

Our instructor said the worst case scenario was damaging the cartilage between the ribs, although I know it's certainly possible to break ribs and such in older people especially. Still, I think they want to get the point across that it's better to risk that kind of injury than organ damage or death.

A lot of people here won't give aid (or get involved at all) because they're afraid of being sued. It's a valid fear, but as long as one gets consent from a conscious victim (or a parent if they're a minor) and doesn't walk away once they start giving aid, our Good Samaritan laws protect them from that.

Over the weekend I came upon a man who was so drunk he'd collapsed on the street. I don't know if he had anybody with him but they weren't around so I put him in the recovery position and checked his ABC's whilst my friends rang for an ambulance. I don't know what I would have done if he wasn't breathing or anything but thank god he was okay. The ambulance came within a couple of minutes and we were on our way.

That's very cool! Kudos to you for helping him!

It's also encouraging that you still remember the basics in a situation like that. Forgetting is one of my fears (although they gave me a handy dandy little reference card with the steps for my wallet), and probably the main reason our CPR certifications are technically only good for a year.

It sounds like there's a lot of debate on CPR and First Aid techniques here right now. For instance, the American Heart Assn. advocates only giving compressions, on the theory that they're better than nothing and there's still enough oxygen in the blood to prevent severe damage for a time. Personally, i'd rather try doing both compressions and breaths so the person has a shot at getting more oxygen, but I can see where they're coming from. The upshot is that you just do as much as you can safely for the person, even if your skills aren't current or you forget some steps, I think.

 

[elib257]

How old were you when you learned it? Here, I don't think they teach it to anyone under 12, but I could be wrong about that.

Well I don't remember exactly but I went from about 8 to 12 I guess - so somewhere in between there.

Our instructor said the worst case scenario was damaging the cartilage between the ribs, although I know it's certainly possible to break ribs and such in older people especially. Still, I think they want to get the point across that it's better to risk that kind of injury than organ damage or death.

A lot of people here won't give aid (or get involved at all) because they're afraid of being sued. It's a valid fear, but as long as one gets consent from a conscious victim (or a parent if they're a minor) and doesn't walk away once they start giving aid, our Good Samaritan laws protect them from that.

I think I'd probably give it a go really, like you said the risk of doing it outweighs the risk of not but I'd still be unsure. I'd probably wait to see if there was somebody more qualified than me around.

As far as I know over here we don't have any 'Good Samaritan' laws as such but particularly in a claim for negligence a court would take into account the social utility of the action and the circumstances. There's a quote (and I can't remember which judge it was, or even the case) that relates to the use of force in self-defence but I think it would apply here, in situations of stress and pressure one can't be liable to 'weigh up to a nicety' the associated risks. In a claim for a battery or a statutory assault I think that some form of implied consent might be successful. But as ever, my legal knowledge is depleting with the passage of time. Either way, that wouldn't be my first thought - just that I didn't want to hurt them.

It sounds like there's a lot of debate on CPR and First Aid techniques here right now. For instance, the American Heart Assn. advocates only giving compressions, on the theory that they're better than nothing and there's still enough oxygen in the blood to prevent severe damage for a time. Personally, i'd rather try doing both compressions and breaths so the person has a shot at getting more oxygen, but I can see where they're coming from. The upshot is that you just do as much as you can safely for the person, even if your skills aren't current or you forget some steps, I think.

I think I'd tend to agree with you about the breathing - anything that you can do to help is worthwhile.

I honestly think that in an emergency situation most people know enough to help a little e.g. don't hold a person's head down if they're having an epileptic fit, putting something soft under the person's head and not moving them unless they're in real and continued danger because of the risk of spinal injury. Or is that just me? I think a lot of what you do in that situation is common sense and of course call an ambulance.

 

[cloudy]

I got my lifesaving certification somewhere around 14, and then my Water Safety Instructor certification at 17, both require that you know CPR....and I keep my WSI cert. current.

I've only had to use it once. When I was a manager for JCPenney, there was an older lady and her two daughters shopping in the store one Saturday, and after a bit, the mother and one daughter went to sit on the bench in the mall just outside our entrance while the other daughter finished up. I was standing at the register, when the first daughter flew in the store, yelled, "There's something wrong with mother!" and then ran back out.

I told the cashier to call 911, and then followed them, and found the elderly lady on her back, not breathing.

I did CPR and breathing until the paramedics got there, but never could get her to breathe on her own. I found out later on that she'd already had two open heart surgeries, and one of the paramedics told me a couple of days later that even if she'd been in the intensive care unit at the time, they still wouldn't have been able to revive her - she was just gone.

Her son came in about a week later to thank me for trying to help her...said that many wouldn't have. It really affected me in a weird way mentally, the fact that I'd lost her.

There was a bright side, though. Because of that incident, I was able to talk first my district manager, and then my regional manager into having all JCPenney managers certified in CPR, so that there would always be someone in a store that knew it. Turns out I was the only one who worked there that knew it.

 

[Eilan]

I know--in theory, I suppose--how to do CPR, but I've never been certified or taken a course. I did, however, have to demonstrate that I knew both the Heimlich and CPR for a high-school health class, but that was 20-odd years ago.

My husband once performed CPR on a heart attack victim in a trailer park. Although it technically wasn't his jurisdiction since it wasn't related to highway patrol duties, his location at the time enabled him to be the first on the scene. Unfortunately, the guy died at the local hospital.

The guy's last meal was pizza and beer. You probably don't want to know how my husband knows that.

 

[elib257]

The guy's last meal was pizza and beer. You probably don't want to know how my husband knows that.

LOL. Oh dear...

 

[popcorn2721]

I used to be an EMT back when I was younger (before they came up with the federal certification system_). Classes were 360hrs over one semester. They had just done away with the shocking blows being landed after five sets (by set I mean 5 compressions to two breaths_) which really worked. The reason I was given for the discontinuation of the shocking blows.... it scared the family members to see their dying loved ones stricken like that.

I did use the hiemlech(sp) maneuver to save my oldest sons life. My wife was sick and I was cooking up some steak for supper... asking each of them how they wanted it cooked and seasoned. I finished his and put it on the plate to serve, quickly returning to finish cooking the next one. I heard him gag, and he stood up and grabbed his throat. Not asking any questions, or waisting any time...I delivered the three upward thrusts that it took to dislodge a piece of meat that was waaaay to big for even me to swallow.

 

[Cathleen]

Having read these experiences I think I'll take the next class offered by our fire department. I feel fortunate that my neighbor is an EMT/Firefighter and his wife an RN, nice to have handy for sure.

Learning CPR has been on 'that list' of smart things to know. Thanks for the inspiration all.

 

[bailadora]

Learning CPR has been on 'that list' of smart things to know.

*nods* I think it's time I look for a first aid course as I'm not too current on the do's and don'ts. I took a CPR course back in high school and then got a refresher on infant/child CPR prior to the birth of my first kiddo. Thank God I've never been called upon to use it, but it's a small comfort to me that I at least have the knowledge - should it ever become necessary.

 

[Cathleen]

*nods* I think it's time I look for a first aid course as I'm not too current on the do's and don'ts. I took a CPR course back in high school and then got a refresher on infant/child CPR prior to the birth of my first kiddo. Thank God I've never been called upon to use it, but it's a small comfort to me that I at least have the knowledge - should it ever become necessary.

Exactly my thoughts, it's the 'but if' potential that leads me to feel a sort of obligation to learn it.

 

[SweetErika]

I honestly think that in an emergency situation most people know enough to help a little e.g. don't hold a person's head down if they're having an epileptic fit, putting something soft under the person's head and not moving them unless they're in real and continued danger because of the risk of spinal injury. Or is that just me? I think a lot of what you do in that situation is common sense and of course call an ambulance.

Maybe there, but I think a lot of Americans have absolutely no clue as to what they're supposed to do in a medical emergency. A good chunk of our college students don't even know basic facts or how to solve simple problems, much less the more complex ones that arise in an emergency.

Perhaps worse than that is bystander apathy. There are countless stories of people having the skills and ability to help someone who's in trouble, but just watching and doing nothing until someone else takes action.

My husband once performed CPR on a heart attack victim in a trailer park. Although it technically wasn't his jurisdiction since it wasn't related to highway patrol duties, his location at the time enabled him to be the first on the scene. Unfortunately, the guy died at the local hospital.

The guy's last meal was pizza and beer. You probably don't want to know how my husband knows that.

IIRC, the instructor said people who are given CPR only recover about 25% of the time. The odds of recovery with an Automatic Defibrillator are much, much better. Still, 25% is better than nothing.

And apparently many people vomit after being given CPR, which really drives the concept of using a barrier of some kind home!

*nods* I think it's time I look for a first aid course as I'm not too current on the do's and don'ts. I took a CPR course back in high school and then got a refresher on infant/child CPR prior to the birth of my first kiddo. Thank God I've never been called upon to use it, but it's a small comfort to me that I at least have the knowledge - should it ever become necessary.

Yeah, we're both definitely going to get infant/child CPR and first aid training before we have a kidlet. I think we'd have a much harder time if something went wrong and we didn't have the knowledge to try to help them than if we did our best until more qualified help arrived.

 

[ero_dream]

I've worked at times at a summer camp and as a volunteer with kids, so CPR/First Aid was an absolute necessity. As a matter of fact, I had to use infant CPR years ago on my brother when he was a a few months old and began choking (it was shortly after he began eating solid foods). Luckily, with my adrenaline flowing the CPR was almost second nature. I didn't actually freak out about it until after the fact!

I heard recently on NPR (I know, I'm a nerd...) that some people are advocating doing only the chest compressions to maintain oxygenated blood flow to the brain since the amount of oxygen provided by the rescue breaths was minimal and inconsequential. Has anyone heard of/been trained in this new method?

 

[SweetErika]

I heard recently on NPR (I know, I'm a nerd...) that some people are advocating doing only the chest compressions to maintain oxygenated blood flow to the brain since the amount of oxygen provided by the rescue breaths was minimal and inconsequential. Has anyone heard of/been trained in this new method?

The American Heart Association is advocating compressions only, apparently. The Red Cross believes compressions are better than nothing, but rescue breaths should still be given because they DO provide some oxygen when given correctly. That little bit of oxygen probably won't make a difference when given for a few minutes, but it could be a big deal when extended CPR is necessary. From what I can tell, that's the primary rationale they're using for continuing to teach breaths. I think it's also possible they feel new research could come out that support rescue breaths, so they don't want to cause any confusion by teaching a new, and possibly less effective, method.

If giving a couple of normal breaths every 18-20 seconds doesn't hurt and might help the victim, I don't see a reason to do compressions alone.

 

[DRoc]

I too need to update my skills. I have FA and CPR and I also know how to properly use a portable defibulator.

I have used my FA skills on burn injuries. On others and even myself (lol).

 

[ero_dream]

http://www.roadkilltshirts.com/images/products/COLORED/SHE-SAID_RK.gif

 

[fire_breeze]

I often volunteer at a camp clinic, so CPR and first aid is a must. Luckily I never had to use CPR. First Aid at a camp, on the other hand, is unavoidable but thankfully, nothing too serious, and there is a doctor on site.

Learning CPR and first aid can never hurt and can potentially save a life. I also feels that it gives me confidence, that no matter where I am, if something happens to someone, I can do something until help arrives.

 

[KokopelliRises]

Certified in both, but I have never had to do CPR, thankfully. I should go get re-certified in CPR, because mine's about to expire. I guess this is just one of those things I do to be a good person, like donating blood and recycling.

 

[Mazuri]

I've let my certification lapse, but I was a Girl Scout leader for over 10 years so had to be certified while having a troop. Never had to use it (thank goodness) beyond the minor scrapes and stings girls get while camping but it was good to know. The last time I was certified was just before the Red Cross changed their technique on CPR to match American Heart Association so I'm definitely out of practice.

Perhaps worse than that is bystander apathy. There are countless stories of people having the skills and ability to help someone who's in trouble, but just watching and doing nothing until someone else takes action.

I'm not sure it's apathy so much as fear of lawsuits. While someone trained and certified can't be sued under most Good Samaritan laws for giving aid withing their training, if someone isn't trained or has let their certification lapse like me, they CAN be sued I believe. Also, if someone does something that ALWAYS happens during CPR if done correctly (crack or break the breastbone), then the Good Samaritan laws do NOT cover the TRAINER of the person giving the aid. This is why it's always best to get training from a large organization such as the Red Cross or AHA as they know this and have a slush fund set up to deal with lawyers' fees and pay offs. Anyone who does this sort of thing for a living (nurses, doctors, etc) can also get in trouble with their insurers as well as the lawsuit situation for responding "outside their jurisdiction:" hospital, clinic, etc. Granted, not all states have the same fucked up laws, but most folks aren't willing to risk losing their home, car, all their possessions, etc over some schmuck who's choking on one hotdog too many.

 

[PertPerth]

I have let my certification lapse, but I have done the course often enough to remember what to do. I've not had to use CPR, but have had experience with a major wound/bleeding and have no issues with blood etc. I've also been home (twice) while being broken into. I'm impressed with how rational and calm I am in situations which normally would make people panic. (which is odd...because I panic daily about minor things!).

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I worked as a carer and trained as a nurse so my first aid skills are up to date and I've used them a number of times. I can also operate a defibrillator and administer first aid drugs, although I'd be less confident about that if I was the only qualified person around.

I left nursing 2 years ago but I still get called upon by people I know if there's a problem anywhere and have no qualms about offering assistance to strangers.

 

[Eilan]

And apparently many people vomit after being given CPR, which really drives the concept of using a barrier of some kind home!

This happened over 25 years ago, when the Patrol didn't have any mouth guards/barriers in their in-car first aid kits. Now they do. it's normally not an issue for them, as EMS squads tend to show up at emergency/crash scenes before law enforcement does. At least that was always my husband's experience--it was rare for him to get there first.

My husband's supervisor, who was riding along with him that day, likely made him do the CPR for that reason, but my husband got his revenge when they went to lunch shortly after they left the scene.

 

[TBKahuna123]

I think in a pinch I could pull it off. I used to be certified in CPR and First Aid, but that was a LOOOOONNNNGGGGG time ago. Like High School. Sheesh, that was...

GOD I feel old. Shouldn't have even started counting.

 

[bailadora]

Yeah, we're both definitely going to get infant/child CPR and first aid training before we have a kidlet. I think we'd have a much harder time if something went wrong and we didn't have the knowledge to try to help them than if we did our best until more qualified help arrived.

*nods* - We also paid for my MIL to take the course since she was going to take care of the kiddo when I went back to work. I'm kind of AR about this, in that a babysitter has to be CPR certified in order for me to hire their services.

 

[glynndah]

I work in a grade school cafeteria and am certificated for both adults and children. So far *knock wood* I've only gotten to the first step in the process. "Are you okay?"