Different. It's not sexy, but is it crap?

[Snurge]

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=354690

I enjoy writing, I can't stop myself, but although I've written some erotic stuff my mind isn't entirely consumed by it. I've tried my hand at doing a none-erotic adventure yarn, and as an experiment I recently posted a few parts of it on Lit in hopes of getting a few pointers on style, accuracy and general pleasability. Predictably the interest here hasn't been great, this is a sex story site after all, but I've had no feedback whatsoever.

I intend to delete what I've posted, but it occurs to me before I do that - and knowing full well I could be in for a drubbing - I could offer it for some critique here. I don't post on the forums much because I have little to offer in the gift of the gab department, but I've nosed around them enough to know there are some worthy assessors out there.

So, lads and laddess's, if you have a little time to spare please take a look. There are some typo mistakes, I know. Dagnabbit, you comb through a piece a hundred times and it's not until you see it posted that they stand up and hit you in the eye. But there will be funamental errors too, I'm sure. Is the begining sharp enough? Does it have sufficiant pace and general interest, or as it all been done too often before?

Is there something that I've missed that would improve the story? Do I need to change it in some way? I've noted the honesty with which you have responded to other people and I'm ready for it. In fact I'd appreciate it.

Oh, pssst. I don't know if this is allowed, but does anyone know of a story site where this kind of thing would fit in?

 

[starrkers]

Just to let you know - you will get feedback. I saw this thread this morning and mentally bookmarked it. Won't get a chance to read the story till Monday, but I will get back to you.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

There were several things struck me about your story.

The first thing is your point of view (POV). You are TELLING the story from First Person. I did this. I did That. I said this...etc.
Rather than a story this reads more like a tail told in a pub. You should try third person. You'll find it will work much better for you. It also allows you to move from character to character rather than the single POV - I. Unfortunately, in the telling, you forgot about the imagery. Give your readers some credit. They have minds. A single image you create with your words will do more than a ream of pages.

Secondly, you've tried to tell the story in vanacular. But you didn't really get it right. It comes off more like Hollywood than and authentic Pirate story.

Also, you've made some mistakes. I'm not sure if they are typo or you used the wrong word. For instance, you wrote: "They tied me to the fore mask." In this short sentence there are two errors. It should be "foremast" - one word and "mast" not "mask."

These detract from your story.

As far as your writing is concerned, generally you do a technically pretty good job. The idea of your story was not bad either.

I would suggest before you continue with your pirate saga you do a lot of research on how people spoke and read some historiecal stories and books. That will help you.

Finally, let your characters talk. They do a lot better job of telling your story than your "I" can. Dialogue is interesting, it breaks up the paragraphs of discription and gives your characters personality and depth.

Just my thoughts.

JJ

 

[Snurge]

Thank you for your observations Jenny, I know I make typo errors and sometimes I need people to point them out to me. The opening sequence is a simplistic young childs dream, which I hope accounts for the Hollywoodness of it. As things progress it opens out as a frontier type of story and not a pirate saga.

It's not told entirely in first-person. From Part 2 onwards I divide it between the narrators experiences and that of the girl, told in third-person. Unusual maybe, but I think I can make it work. My problem comes, as you say, with giving the storyteller some depth of personality, and I'm still struggling with that.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

It's not told entirely in first-person. From Part 2 onwards I divide it between the narrators experiences and that of the girl, told in third-person. Unusual maybe, but I think I can make it work. My problem comes, as you say, with giving the storyteller some depth of personality, and I'm still struggling with that.

See, that's the problem. In first person POV it's hard to give depth and personalty to "I". Depth and Personality is made of of two things - How the character acts and thinks AND how others see his actions.

That's hard to do in first person because you don't know/can't show what the other characters are thinking.

Like I said, try third person POV. You'll find it a lot easier to get around this problem.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

IMHO, Jenny's given you superb advice.

In answer to your question, there's no site or publisher that gives room to writing that doesn't fit a genre. Crime, murder, sex - unless you've got excitement, tight plot and a story - you can forget the plaudits.

There are writers who want to contest the norms - they usually don't sell well.

 

[Elianna]

Okay...

Jenny has a couple good points. I think you need to do some research into the terminology you are using... you said four score... which means 80. I don't think people in the 1700's lived to 80. Perhaps you were thinking 40? Two-score? Some of the words you are using are not quite correct in context.

I agree that you are doing a lot of "telling" the tale instead of letting us feel... but I also get the sense you're trying to trace quite a bit of time. That's something I struggle with as well. I've opted to pick a few "strong" memories to really involve my reader and then gloss over other things. You might want to ask some others who are much more skilled than I am.

The other thing that I noticed and this is perhaps because I'm in an impatient frame of mind is that I made it through the first page of the story and felt no "driving force" or direction about where the story was going. I knew something happened to Hannah only from the title. I might also suggest not giving away Ned so early... Now I know he's a villian... or at least not so good. I think I would rather have been surprised or have just remained suspicious.

I know I'm not so good at reviewing as some of the others here, but I know that through looking critically at others' works you can improve your own. I hope I said some useful things for you...

-E

 

[Snurge]

I'm getting a lot of excellent advice here, and I have to thank everyone who as squandered some of their time to do a little reading and make a reply. A number of vague uncertainies in my mind about this piece are now taking some shape and I guess I have a great deal of restructuring to do. But, hey, I don't mind that now I've been given some idea of what to chase.

Gendre? Too early in time to be termed a Western. Not sufficiant love interest to be called a Romance. But it does take in the fight at Bushy Run and the relief of Fort Pitt, so would Historical Adventure have any takers?

 

[starrkers]

My main problem with it was it wasn't sufficiently interesting to drive me to finish reading this instalment, never mind seek out future chapters. The writing is technically good enough, but there's no excitement to it.

 

[Snurge]

My main problem with it was it wasn't sufficiently interesting to drive me to finish reading this instalment, never mind seek out future chapters. The writing is technically good enough, but there's no excitement to it.

Thanks for the input Starkers. All in all it seems I've totally misjudged the way I should be doing this thing and need to look at it afresh. That's what I'll do.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Thanks for the input Starkers. All in all it seems I've totally misjudged the way I should be doing this thing and need to look at it afresh. That's what I'll do.

Fine, but don't do as you threatened and walk away. There's not much nastiness here and sifting through the advice can help sometimes.

Erotica is a pretty limiting genre, but whatever genre you choose and whatever rules you break, at the end of the day you must have a 'page-turner' that keeps the readers intrigued.

 

[hmmnmm]

genre limitations.

True. Too true.

Unfortunate.

page-turners. True too.

Too bad. Sucks. Too fast. Signs of decline.

Oh well. thank the library for all them dickens.

 

[Snurge]

genre limitations.

True. Too true.

Unfortunate.

page-turners. True too.

Too bad. Sucks. Too fast. Signs of decline.

Oh well. thank the library for all them dickens.

This isn't helpful. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and if you were going to say something I would have expected something more than a cheap shot from someone as wordly-wise as yourself. The other people who responded to this thread have been critical but have always qualified their opinions and offered advice. I now know the story is going nowhere in its present form, but beneath all the pith and peel that's been identified I know I've got a good story, and I intend to write it.

 

[hmmnmm]

No offense intended. Sorry if it came out that way. Some works that are not necessarily page-turners can be very rewarding.

Again, I meant no insult.

Actually, I like the feel of your writing. A lot. Some of that old style flavoring, at least to me.

I just think it's too bad that publishers seem to think that everyone nowadays just wants fast page-turners. I think it is a shame.

You have something with definite potential. A little sprucing and weeding - which is one of my personally constant travails. So that's an easy issue to address.

I like the language usage. The feel. Maybe a little wordy - another something I entirely symapthize with - but it could also be said that wordiness is a sin for internet computer screen-reading, which may not be the case if the work would be printed out or read from real paper.

So be careful. That's all I was saying.
I also wish, like you, that there was better outlet for stuff that is outside of this or that genre. That's what sucks. Not your writing.

 

[Snurge]

No offense intended. Sorry if it came out that way. Some works that are not necessarily page-turners can be very rewarding.

Again, I meant no insult.

Actually, I like the feel of your writing. A lot. Some of that old style flavoring, at least to me.

I just think it's too bad that publishers seem to think that everyone nowadays just wants fast page-turners. I think it is a shame.

You have something with definite potential. A little sprucing and weeding - which is one of my personally constant travails. So that's an easy issue to address.

I like the language usage. The feel. Maybe a little wordy - another something I entirely symapthize with - but it could also be said that wordiness is a sin for internet computer screen-reading, which may not be the case if the work would be printed out or read from real paper.

So be careful. That's all I was saying.
I also wish, like you, that there was better outlet for stuff that is outside of this or that genre. That's what sucks. Not your writing.

I misunderstood previously and I apologise for snapping back. Now you're using proper sentences I understand you better. You're actually being very kind and I thank you. If wordiness and slow progression were in fashion with the rest of the world my problems would doubtless be smaller, unfortunately I'm learning one must go with the flow. Best regards.

 

[hmmnmm]

If wordiness and slow progression were in fashion with the rest of the world my problems would doubtless be smaller

That makes two of us.

 

[hmmnmm]

Afterthought: I think it's a matter of some of us who tend to leave generalities that could yet be broken down into multiple related parts. Places you might skip through out of habit. But then get bogged down in other places. Which could still work I think, under the right circumstances. Just hard to manage it all sometimes.

 

[Snurge]

Afterthought: I think it's a matter of some of us who tend to leave generalities that could yet be broken down into multiple related parts. Places you might skip through out of habit. But then get bogged down in other places. Which could still work I think, under the right circumstances. Just hard to manage it all sometimes.

My own thoughts on story writing: There are other things to consider. Fields of interest change over time. Who these days reads Orwell's 1984 or Animal Farm unless advised to do so in college? From the selection of works in my local library I estimate 80% of readers are women and a story needs to be at least hip-deep with romance and feminine strife or there are no takers. (One has to file a request for Orwell's books.)

For the few men who read there must be plenty of quick kills and high-tech gadgets to hold their interest (though they would much rather wait until the movie came out), so stories that depict real life and realistic difficulties will struggle from the start.

Historical subjects take the rearmost seat of all unless they have masses of romantic interest or fit into an enthusiasts niche. Few people care about what happened in the world before they were born, so although plenty of fascinating things have happened, people can't relate to them unless they're given a slick modern twist (eg. Pirates of the Caribbean).

One will note that, with a few exceptions, WWII stories are now considered pretty much old hat. There have been scores of genocidal tyrants in the past but people know of Hitler only because he is held up so often as the most recent in western eyes, that and the fact that movie-makers have got him on lots of film.

 

[The_Fractal_King]

My own thoughts on story writing: There are other things to consider. Fields of interest change over time. Who these days reads Orwell's 1984 or Animal Farm unless advised to do so in college?

I read 1984 in highschool because I'd seen so many parodies of its content.

From the selection of works in my local library I estimate 80% of readers are women and a story needs to be at least hip-deep with romance and feminine strife or there are no takers. (One has to file a request for Orwell's books.)

For the few men who read there must be plenty of quick kills and high-tech gadgets to hold their interest (though they would much rather wait until the movie came out), so stories that depict real life and realistic difficulties will struggle from the start.

Historical subjects take the rearmost seat of all unless they have masses of romantic interest or fit into an enthusiasts niche. Few people care about what happened in the world before they were born, so although plenty of fascinating things have happened, people can't relate to them unless they're given a slick modern twist (eg. Pirates of the Caribbean).

One will note that, with a few exceptions, WWII stories are now considered pretty much old hat. There have been scores of genocidal tyrants in the past but people know of Hitler only because he is held up so often as the most recent in western eyes, that and the fact that movie-makers have got him on lots of film.

This is the way the world ends . . .


Nonetheless there are still writers who can create complex thought provoking stories. I doubt we'll ever lose that sector of people but it's certain to die off as people get so dull and impatient that anything of interest is impossible to publish.

 

[hmmnmm]

My own thoughts on story writing: There are other things to consider. Fields of interest change over time. Who these days reads Orwell's 1984 or Animal Farm unless advised to do so in college? From the selection of works in my local library I estimate 80% of readers are women and a story needs to be at least hip-deep with romance and feminine strife or there are no takers. (One has to file a request for Orwell's books.)

For the few men who read there must be plenty of quick kills and high-tech gadgets to hold their interest (though they would much rather wait until the movie came out), so stories that depict real life and realistic difficulties will struggle from the start.

Historical subjects take the rearmost seat of all unless they have masses of romantic interest or fit into an enthusiasts niche. Few people care about what happened in the world before they were born, so although plenty of fascinating things have happened, people can't relate to them unless they're given a slick modern twist (eg. Pirates of the Caribbean).

One will note that, with a few exceptions, WWII stories are now considered pretty much old hat. There have been scores of genocidal tyrants in the past but people know of Hitler only because he is held up so often as the most recent in western eyes, that and the fact that movie-makers have got him on lots of film.

I think your assessment is likely accurate, which means... ? The would-be writer must decide how far to bend to the trend or to understand that they ain't got much chance.

My last trip to the library I got a Dickens and a Faulkner. You can get an idea by the stamped due dates, you know. The last due date for Dickens (before mine) is Dec '03. Before that is Jun '01. Then we go back to '97 and '93. Not a big seller. Least not around here. The Faulkner goes 2002, 1999, 1989, 1987, 1986. Not quite reaching the contemporary soul. I also like to sometimes just grab something random, a name I've never heard, something newish. This time it's a mystery, and the due dates are abundant and recent. Compare that to the Descarte/Spinoza, with due dates of 1995, 1992... and that's it.

Now, if microscopic flakes rub off on you from what you read, and what you don't care to read does not influence you... you'd have to (which is oft-advised here, and correctly so) study and read the contemporaries. Which may or may not be a kind of drudgery. But it might be cool, too. Maybe we should try it.

 

[Snurge]

This is the way the world ends . . .

(Sigh) Uh-huh.

 

[Snurge]

I think your assessment is likely accurate, which means... ? The would-be writer must decide how far to bend to the trend or to understand that they ain't got much chance.

Now, if microscopic flakes rub off on you from what you read, and what you don't care to read does not influence you... you'd have to (which is oft-advised here, and correctly so) study and read the contemporaries. Which may or may not be a kind of drudgery. But it might be cool, too.

(Gulp) That's too much good sense to swallow in one mouthful. I'm gonna have to think about it at some length.

 

[MarshAlien]

Okay. I've apparently violated most of the rules. I usually write in the first person, my stories are very slow (I have one where nobody has sex until Chapter 6), and I'm terribly wordy. I don't think any of those are the problem here. Instead, two things stood out. First, starting with a wholly unexplained (and seemingly inexplicable) dream sequence just doesn't work for this story. Pirate dreams seem modern to me; I'm not sure a kid like the one in your story would have a dream like this. In any case, it doesn't really advance the story as far as I can tell.

Which brings me to the second, much more important part. In the first chapter, at least, this story seems to go nowhere but backward. You spend the whole time racing through the guy's early life, as if this were going to be an epic tale of generations. But I still have the feeling that you haven't gotten to the story yet. My sense is that you're still giving me background that I'll need to know when the "action" starts. The problem, as starrkers said, is that it doesn't give me any reason to want to wait for the action. I think that technically you write well. But you need to also pay attention to the story, particularly on Lit. Unlike the reader of a book that has been purchased (or checked out of the library), Lit readers don't have an investment in getting to the end. They'll only read the other chapters if the first one (and all the subsequent ones) sustain their interest. Once you're an established author you can probably get away with a dud chapter or two, but I'm not sure I'd want to test that theory too seriously. Good luck.

 

[Snurge]

reply to marshalien

Thanks very much for your analysis Marsh. Ever since starkkers mentioned it being too slow I've been thinking about what I could do to raise the pace of the story, and you're right. There's a lot of dead wood to be cut out of the early life part, and the pirate sequence at the start is not only irrelevant but perhaps misleading too. Jenny Jackson initially thought I was into a high-seas yarn.

I intend to do surgery in these places and in some others places too. After a while the story begins to swing along much better on its own. But I do agree with Jenny about the POV. The portions I did in third-person from the girls angle, starting in Part 2, flowed much easier than the other stuff, so I'll probably do some experimenting.

Thanks again for the trouble you've taken. I'll be taking a look at your own stories to see what other tips and tricks I can learn.

 

[foolishlittleone]

I like the idea that using the 3rd person voice gives you many more options for character development, but at the same time I've been going in the other direction. I used the 3rd person for my first two stories then switched to 1st for a couple and found it quite freeing to speak in that voice. What it lacked in freedom to expose what's going on in everyone's head I thought it picked up in the ability to let the reader into this one character in a very direct and intimate way. It also helped force me to use dialog to provide insight into the other characters.

Caveat: I'm a novice author. Although quite proud of the stories I've written, I've a long way to go.