Let's talk blues and drugs

[CharleyH]

I must admit that Amy Winehouse has been the most interesting blues/jazz singer to come along in a while. I know blues lyrics aren't always interesting, but my faves are from Alberta Hunter and Etta James and now Winehouse. I do not condone drug use for creativity (well, not crack, coke or heroine, anyhow) but what say you all on the topic of using or not, drugs to enhance the poetic experience?

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I'll weigh in on this just a little: seems to me that there's a cause-effect question here that might be an interesting direction for discussion too.

The first examples that came into my head weren't poets but musicians. Joplin. Hendrix. Morrison.

The consequences of the lifestyle are pretty obvious. So what I wonder is, how much did their chemical problems inform their art, and how much was it the reverse, in that chemical and alcohol issues become a coping mechanism for an exceptional soul?

Drugs don't make a poet, obviously. If there weren't already something there, there would be no need for either crutches or creativity. But did Poe's rabies and laudanum affect his work? And was it a positive effect? Would Byron's work be as good without his background in debauchery and rebellion? Would anyone listen to the entirety of Ginsburg's Howl if they weren't just a teency bit baked?

Depression, chemical imbalance and bipolarity are a form of altered consciousness as well, and without those imbalances, we'd lose many more famous voices. I suspect Brautigan, Dylan Thomas, Plath, Sexton, Shelley and Whitman would not have done the same work if they hadn't been struggling with chemical demons of one sort or another. So back when I was 17, I had to ask myself: must I be tragic and suicidal in order to be a truly great poet?

Just as I was about to embark on that road, I had a very wise friend say to me: Life will do it to you enough. You don't have to do it to yourself.

He was right.

Whoops. I guess I just asked more questions.

bj

 

[FifthFlower]

Coffee is a useful drug for creativity. Staying healthy is another.

Those famous for using drugs get benefit, I suspect, only from the publicity this brings them. If it leads to their suicide or death, well, that is clearly not the best way to be creative.

 

[Angeline]

I must admit that Amy Winehouse has been the most interesting blues/jazz singer to come along in a while. I know blues lyrics aren't always interesting, but my faves are from Alberta Hunter and Etta James and now Winehouse. I do not condone drug use for creativity (well, not crack, coke or heroine, anyhow) but what say you all on the topic of using or not, drugs to enhance the poetic experience?

When Lester Young was court-martialed (on a trumped up drug charge) in the early 1940s and testified, he was asked if he used marijuana. He looked at the judge incredulously and said "I'm a jazz musician. Of course I do."

Didn't go well for him, but I suspect most artists are more willing than others to explore anything that might enhance their ability to create art. For me personally, that's an illusory way of thinking, but I say that having already reached a ripe old age and having experimented with well, a lot. My experience has always been that too much fucking around with booze or any drug will end with the person dancing to the drug's tune. That's not good for my poems or me.

 

[Homburg]

Looking at musicians is a good example in this age, and one of my favourite example is Shane McGowan of the Pogues. Drugs and drink were as much a part of him as his bones, and I honestly think that Shane would not have survived his own life with the chemical assistance.

I'm not lauding chemical abuse, but some people just seem to have too much going on, and that sort of external modification is absolutely necessary.

And, honestly, looking specifically at old blues musicians, alcohol was so deeply woven into their experience that, again, they would likely not have lived their lives without it. Drug use as well, for some.

"Just messin around with the blues"

I'm feeling low down
I act like a clown
I really don't know what to do
what to do

Feeling so blue
Just thinking of you
You told me one day
We were through

Losin my mind Just messin around with the blues

With you on my mind
I'm blue all the time
I wonder just where
you can be, you can be

If you only knew, baby
what I'm going through
You'd hurry right how
Can't you see, can't you see

Losin my mind Just messin around with the blues

It's funny but true
what people will do
They tell me each
let her go, let her go

I couldn't hide
even if I tried
I love her too much
don't you know, don't you know

Losin my mind Just messin around with the blues

(And now I can't remember who did this tune. I'll see if I can dig it up. It's an awesome tune, and as soulful and bluesy as all get out.)

 

[The_Fool]

Interesting that you are tying Blues and Drugs together. One reports on the depressing side of the human condition and one creates it.

Drugs are the ultimate in freedom, the ultimate in liberation or the ultimate escape. Drugs have been used for all time as a way to enhance the human experience. It does have a way of loosening inhibitions, at least in me. Which means that I think that when I write shit, it sounds better.

Sorry, my whiskey glass is empty.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

If I were to actually form an opinion, it might be this.

Seems to me that small amounts of experimentation with the non-deadly altered states would help an artist, or at least some artists, expand their ability to create. Not that this requires substances per se. But if artists work to sense and express things outside the norm, then altered state exploration would be a natural draw.

However, once you learn where a door is and what's behind it, you really don't need the substance to find it again. Anything past that is addiction to the tool, to the door itself rather than what's behind it, and tends to harm the artist's effectiveness.

that is, if I had a firm opinion. Which I don't.

bj

 

[Angeline]

If I were to actually form an opinion, it might be this.

Seems to me that small amounts of experimentation with the non-deadly altered states would help an artist, or at least some artists, expand their ability to create. Not that this requires substances per se. But if artists work to sense and express things outside the norm, then altered state exploration would be a natural draw.

However, once you learn where a door is and what's behind it, you really don't need the substance to find it again. Anything past that is addiction to the tool, to the door itself rather than what's behind it, and tends to harm the artist's effectiveness.

that is, if I had a firm opinion. Which I don't.

bj

You know in spite of what I said above, I do think that erm extensive use of hallucinogens in my sordid past have, overall, had a good effect on me as an artist. When I was doing that, it wasn't just about "getting high"; the whole experience was approached as a journey of the mind where anything could happen.

But if I thought my children were doing it, I'd plotz.

 

[The_Fool]

It is all about the experience. How do you write about pain, joy, sorrow, lust you have never felt? You have to have a source, primary or secondary, but the writer needs some knowledge of what is written.

 

[Angeline]

It is all about the experience. How do you write about pain, joy, sorrow, lust you have never felt? You have to have a source, primary or secondary, but the writer needs some knowledge of what is written.

Thank you. I've been looking for a good justification for all the abuse I put myself through. I like this one.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

If I were saying anything about my own experience, rather than just speaking generally about poets and artists, I would say something close to the Fool's assertion. I would say it while holding a full Guinness, or possibly two fingers of Llagavullin. And I would be remembering some interesting episodes, long, long ago.

Okay a lot of episodes. And not THAT long ago.

If I were saying. Which I'm not. I'm just sayin'.

bj

eta:

well, to make this meaningful, maybe one of the questions is, if you write, what do you write about? and is this or that particular substance going to bring you to better understanding of that experience or setting?

If one writes about sex, for example, one should probably have had some.
If one writes about seeing things differently from the way people usually see them, or desires to write or create from a skewed, innovative stance, then maybe altered state exploration makes the writer more effective.

 

[Liar]

I've never tried to write poetry under the influence, but I have written music with all kinds of funny stuff in my blood.

I label it "high culture", meaning I have to get high again to bear listening to the rubbish.

 

[The_Fool]

Damn...I already made that a rool.

 

[Liar]

If one writes about sex, for example, one should probably have had some.

I've written about murder. Did I do it wrong?

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I've written about murder. Did I do it wrong?

Yes.

*grin, snort*

good point, of course.

but I did say "probably."

I myself have written about a few things that I haven't actually done. But I think the general question there might still be sound; does substance use inform something about which you are trying to write? Does it inform a certain state of mind, or flexibility of state of mind? I think in some cases it could be argued that altered states assist in expanding consciousness, and ideally a poet is trying in some way to expand consciousness, either in himself or in an audience.

just a hypothesis.

bj

 

[Liar]

Fair enuff. To put it in as simple terms as possible: If I write about being high (or about something that occurs then), it might help to know what that's like.

But experiencing something, and communicating the experience, are two very differen't things. And personally I would never recommend that one tries to do both at the same time.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Fair enuff. To put it in as simple terms as possible: If I write about being high (or about something that occurs then), it might help to know what that's like.

But experiencing something, and communicating the experience, are two very differen't things. And personally I would never recommend that one tries to do both at the same time.

Indeed, indeed *nodding*.

Lemme throw THIS out, then, just to see what you think. With it, I'm off for the night, since I must go eat dinner before I fall over.

Terrence McKenna once said that a shaman's task is to enter alternative states of reality and bring back thought models that assist in understanding, ideas that do in fact translate into the real world and "expand consciousness", for lack of a better phrase. He suggested that most of this information was brought back to this "normal" state of consciousness and reality in the form of Art.

Whitman believed the poet should be a traditional Bard, that is, one who actually shapes reality through the use of language.

These are two thoughts I dig on regularly. I thought you might like them too.

bj

 

[FifthFlower]

Drugs are like colds. They are to be avoided.

Other things, far more powerful than drugs and unavoidable, are deaths and births of loved ones, faithlessness and love, anger and reconciliation. These experiences help our mind create the ideas that later could be shaped into a literature that could be about anything at all.

 

[Senna Jawa]

3 poems

[i had to...]

[the crazy...]

who care

​

 

[Angeline]

[i had to...]

[the crazy...]

who care

​

The last one.
I was crazy.
Poor had to crazy.
Who care?

 

[normal jean]

dear bijou-

the first post you made on the subject, ( I wont quote anything in this thread because someone might want to delete it for some personal reason, I dunno)

however...your post referring to the observations of what may have been lost had it not been for great poets/writers who composed while they suffered from bipolar disorder, well, you hit the nail on the head, I doubt if that could have been expressed any better by anyone here ...except maybe by me

I just want to add this-


I think most of the people who have been here for years, and who know me and some things about my life, well, I have suffered the ups and downs of chemicals...it runs in my family...

I am what "they " call a rapid cycler, and it is so not fun. But, I have since I was about 15, enjoyed the herbage, as a dear friend puts it, but i have also spent some time in rehab.

About 15 years ago, I thought I was having a heart attack, was rushed to the ER and low and behold, I was diagnosed with arterial hypertension as well as panic disorder. My doc put me on a myriad of drugs, one of them was xanax.

well, turns out, I have a medical problem known as paradoxical delirium, which means i have an opposite effect to many drugs. xanax, ( or any benzodiazepine) does not calm me, it makes me hyper, and opiates cause such an extreme fluctuation in my moods, its like I am on speed. You wont catch me doing lets say, a percocet or dilaudid without furiously scrubbing the house and the yard and the walls, they dont calm me, they make me wildly energetic, lol.

I have written many, many poems while on my zoloft, but they are not nearly as good as the ones I write when I am off my meds, so it makes me wonder just how many people's creativity is being stifled by the serotonin reuptake inhibitors ( SSRI's, also include Prozac,m celexa, serafem, and others) that are prescribed to keep us from being depressed... I think had Poe, or some of the others you mentioned may never have written some of their best work had they been medicated.

right now, I have stopped smoking the MJ because all we can get here now is brown ragwed, plus, we just cant afford it...


anyway, I have a couple of poems, if you would like to read them, I think that you probably wouldn't because I have left you FB and stuff and never seem to get any type of response from you, I just feel like you dont like me, and I dont blame you, but I do admire you, okay? and when I leave FB on your work, I am just trying to be helpful...some folks just don't seem to want FB from people whose work they dont like, I just wanted you to know that your take on the drugs and writing thing, well, you asked, pondered a subject that has intrigued me for years. I study all the psychology I can, and have learned a lot about myself and others in the process...

Thanks for being so insightful, I'm sure that others will agree with you, as they should cuz youre right. It is just a shame that people like "us" have to suffer through our illnesses and the misunderstanding of it is even worse. I think most folks here tolerate me, cause they know... and I never mean any harm, I am just really more like a recluse , a hermit and that is my own doing, I figure, hell, why inflict myself on people, you know, but it sure does get fucking lonely sometimes...

have a great day, I am off to play in my garden, some more

hugs to all

 

[unpredictablebijou]

dear bijou-


... so it makes me wonder just how many people's creativity is being stifled by the serotonin reuptake inhibitors ( SSRI's, also include Prozac,m celexa, serafem, and others) that are prescribed to keep us from being depressed... I think had Poe, or some of the others you mentioned may never have written some of their best work had they been medicated.

anyway, I have a couple of poems, if you would like to read them

...

....
have a great day, I am off to play in my garden, some more

hugs to all

I did my best to edit stuff you might feel like taking down later, although the whole letter was very worthwhile.

bipolar disorder does not so much run as gallop in my family, and I have acquaintances who are treated for one form of depression or another. I also struggled for years with a badly damaged stepdaughter whose meds were constantly being messed with, to her great detriment. I think you have an excellent point in that there's a real two-edged sword in mood-affecting medications. All I can hope is that someday there will be ways to treat chemical issues to yield real happiness and functionality without erasing bits of the character and creativity in the process. Obviously science hasn't really found a way to do that well, not for everyone anyway, and in the meantime I think one ends up struggling with questions of balance between the creative temperament and the ability to function in the "real world", whatever that is.

As to the comment thing, you really really really must not take that personally. I have read, appreciated, thought about and loved much of your work. "The sky isn't falling" is one of my favorites, for example.

and this:

and sometimes I want to jump
off a thousand tiny tables in a day
just to say I did it , I did it
and what did it get me?

made me yell 'o hell yeah' the first time I read it.

But I just don't leave comments on people's submissions. It comes from two directions; my own philosophy is that by the time I've actually submitted something it would be a true pain to edit it from there; I consider that work "finished" for better or worse. I guess I sorta assume others have similar philosophies. But the other thing is that I understand that many people find it pointless to receive comments that are mere congratulations on a good job, and perhaps I've been a bit rebellious for that reason.

I've been thinking, and you've helped me make this resolution, that I'm just going to say fuck it, pick one poet a week, and leave the only comments I really feel confident making, which are those times I want to tell a poet that a piece really worked for me. The main thing is, my ideas about a poem may or may not be helpful to a poet. Things work for me that don't necessarily work for others, and things that others consider brilliant sometimes leave me cold.

Guess I've been on comment strike since I realized it was such an issue around here, not that I ever really did that very often. I love it when people tell me they liked my work, and I value critique as well, but it's nothing I expect. Maybe I never assumed my work was worth paying that much attention to. So it's always a nice surprise when I get a comment but it's nothing I get attached to.

But dammit, if it will make other people's days better, and if it's not TOO offensive to just say that I loved a piece, that it worked for me, then perhaps I should just bite the bullet and go do that.

Now you know. And in the meantime, I've totally jacked the thread, so I should get back on task here.

I kept thinking about this whole thing last night, about the concept of "drugs" and creativity. I think that Liar raised a good point about the general ineffectiveness of trying to communicate a state from within a state, but in a sense, there's a long tradition of doing just that, or at least making the attempt. And for folks who struggle with unpredictable chemicals of one sort or another, it's almost necessary to consider that a legitimate approach.

I'm thinking about Van Gogh, among other people. But there are so many examples. Artists, shamans, bards, poets, all of these must walk a strange line between conventional perception and unconventional bursts of illumination. They may not be the most functional people in the rational world, but without them the world wouldn't be complete. They're martyrs, in a sense, stretching us to see in new ways, and sometimes at the expense of their own sanity or even their lives.

No answers, really. Just more questions.

And affection, doll. Keep the faith.

bj

 

[CharleyH]

I'll weigh in on this just a little: seems to me that there's a cause-effect question here that might be an interesting direction for discussion too.

The first examples that came into my head weren't poets but musicians. Joplin. Hendrix. Morrison.

The consequences of the lifestyle are pretty obvious. So what I wonder is, how much did their chemical problems inform their art, and how much was it the reverse, in that chemical and alcohol issues become a coping mechanism for an exceptional soul?

Actually, this is a fascinating question. First, I am not sure that "all" drugs are a consequence for all people and I also don't think one could say that drugs are a coping mechanism for all - yet it's a whole interesting issue regarding art and the artist across all her genres. Just wanted to thank you.

I guess I just asked more questions.

Don't we always.

 

[CharleyH]

Looking at musicians is a good example in this age, and one of my favourite example is Shane McGowan of the Pogues. Drugs and drink were as much a part of him as his bones, and I honestly think that Shane would not have survived his own life with the chemical assistance.

Thanks Homburg. While we will never truly know about Shane McGowan, we can understand a bit about Amy Winehouse. Would we ever get a song like "Rehab" from her if she wasn't an addict?

Just messin around.


CH

 

[CharleyH]

Interesting that you are tying Blues and Drugs together. One reports on the depressing side of the human condition and one creates it.

Drugs are the ultimate in freedom, the ultimate in liberation or the ultimate escape. Drugs have been used for all time as a way to enhance the human experience. It does have a way of loosening inhibitions, at least in me. Which means that I think that when I write shit, it sounds better.

Sorry, my whiskey glass is empty.

I did have an inking to delve into Hendrix et al, at first, but damn you ... I did link the blues to drugs and very purposefully. Is that whiskey glass half empty or full enough for me to sip?