Ok...this is "off the rails"

Dearest Jenny,

You sound so painfully rabid-Clinton. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, especially if it's well thought out, say, like Camille Paglia's, who understands that Hillary is actually bad for women. Or like that powerful Aussie feminist, who knows Hillary and calls her "cold and bossy." Listen to your active, concerned fellow-women-in-the-struggle-for-complete-equality if you wont listen to me (male, true, but 100% against sexism and more interested in women's long-term prospects over their short-term/sighted gain).

No one, man or woman, likes an asshat, and Hillary, whatever else she is, is a complete asshat. She will be ineffective on the world scene at a time when America is in its most precarious (and self-hating) position. She has shown herself to be the worst liar (if she was helpful in the Northern Ireland peace talks, then Gore really did invent this internet) as well as the one to throw the lowest (dirtiest, most unscrupulous) punches. She will weather criticism worst of all 3 remaining candidates, which will only get worse if she's Queen...oops, I mean President.

She will have the least credibility with the Middle East, no matter how wrong that is (doesn't change the fact), and her "experience" as a politician actually proves to many how poorly she does at it. But she has the best chance of entrenching/polarizing her opponents.

Hear me out, because here comes the most important point that so few have thought through:

It doesn't take a political expert to understand that the majority of American policy that comes from the executive branch actually comes from non-elected officials. No two people can possibly run a country, no matter how well meaning they are. They must rely on appointees to fill in all those gaps--to get a decent set of appointees takes, at the very least, a good judge of character. Of the three choices now, who has the worst spouse (a pretty enormous error in judge of character); who has seen the worst betrayals (people changing sides); who has had the most resignations from their campaign (especially over incompetence/poorly run campaigns)? Who do you think is responsible for all those errors in judgment? Can you honestly say that the chances are good that all those errors in judgment will disappear once the stakes have been raised and it's time to pick cabinet members?

I'm truly sad that you must wait longer for your perceived vindication until a truly remarkable woman comes along, but Hillary is not your girl. You will understand this (if only privately) if you have the sense to view the larger picture. Hillary is bad for everyone but Hillary (and America's competitors and enemies).
 
The only issue is 'Who can beat McCain?'

The only question is 'Will white blue collar voters vote for Obama?'

My view is that at least 10% of blue collar regular democrat voters are sufficiently racist that they will vote for anybody to avoid having a black President. That seems to indicate Clinton as the candidate more likely to win. Not necessarily the best candidate but the one with the best chance.

Someone else said Clinton should retire gracefully. Why ? Clinton doesn't do graceful, one of the few things I like about her.

Exactly! Geraldine said nothing wrong, in my opinion. She stated what clearly are the facts. Obama cannot beat McCain in the General Election. Presidential elections over the past 40 years have been decided by 1% point or less. With a large percentage of deep south whites voting against anything black, he'll lose big time.

Hillary can, at least, close the gap with the same haters in the South to make a horse race out of it.
 
They hate Hilary far more than they hate Barack. Far more, and it has far less to do with her gender than with her history.

Hilary is a bar-brawler and a dirty fighter. It works to her advantage in some ways, but it will play right into the republican hands as they paint her as a coattail riding hard-ass bitch who was so hellish to live with that Bill started chasing everything in a skirt. Not that it has anything to do with it, but these are the people who painted a man with three purple hearts as less heroic and patriotic than a guy who went AWOL from the Arkansas Air National Guard.

They are praying for Hilary to get the nod. It's their only chance and they know it.

I'm done discussing this with you Jenny. You come off with invented numbers and wild statements. You throw accusations around in exactly the manner we have grown to despise coming from Rove. And you simply have no room in your decision making process for the possibility that you are wrong.

I started this process looking at everyone and narrowed it down slowly. I considered Hilary as my candidate and rejected her in favor of Edwards or Clark before the campaigns even started. Then Clark didn't run, and in my search I discovered Dreams From My Father.

I'm confident in my choice because I looked at the other options. I don't hear that from you. I hear a lot of "my way or the highway." I don't respond well to that from the Repugs and I don't respond well to it from Dem's either.
 
Did anyone else watch the NBC news this evening? They spent about five minutes one on one with Ms Ferraro -- according to her, she made those remarks in a more or less private context, in response to a question at a lecture she was giving.

Some reporter picked them up, and then they got jumped on.

If there was widespread pubilicity it was not her intention.
 
Did anyone else watch the NBC news this evening? They spent about five minutes one on one with Ms Ferraro -- according to her, she made those remarks in a more or less private context, in response to a question at a lecture she was giving.

Some reporter picked them up, and then they got jumped on.

If there was widespread pubilicity it was not her intention.

I'm not surprised. Geradine is a pretty smart cookie. And, god, she was just saying the truth. I wish politicians would do more of standing up and saying "It's just reality folks, not something I invented."

If Hillary did that with the Iraq war vote, she wouldn't be in near the trouble she is in over that. "I am a U.S. Senator from the state hardest hit in 9/11 and the administration lied to us about where we needed to retaliate. Given the circumstance and the information, how the hell did you expect me to vote? Given new information, I've changed my mind. Do you really want leaders who can't change their minds given new information? If so, then vote Republican."
 
I'm not surprised. Geradine is a pretty smart cookie. And, god, she was just saying the truth. I wish politicians would do more of standing up and saying "It's just reality folks, not something I invented."

If Hillary did that with the Iraq war vote, she wouldn't be in near the trouble she is in over that. "I am a U.S. Senator from the state hardest hit in 9/11 and the administration lied to us about where we needed to retaliate. Given the circumstance and the information, how the hell did you expect me to vote? Given new information, I've changed my mind. Do you really want leaders who can't change their minds given new information? If so, then vote Republican."


Well, perhaps. But if you watched BBC news at the time, it was perfectly obvious that the aministration was lying. The Russians were saying, the French were saying it ( remember all the partriotic fervor against the French?). My wife and I just were in awe of how idiotic the whole thing was. And we did not have access to any information other than what was available in the news.
 
Well, perhaps. But if you watched BBC news at the time, it was perfectly obvious that the aministration was lying. The Russians were saying, the French were saying it ( remember all the partriotic fervor against the French?). My wife and I just were in awe of how idiotic the whole thing was. And we did not have access to any information other than what was available in the news.


I think you missed the point. She was one of two representatives of the people of New York in the U.S. Senate. Do you really think she could convince her constituents who had just suffered the Twin Towers tragedy to intellectualize that their government had the wrong instigators in their sights within the time constraints? Have you been to New York? Do you have any idea what pressure a New York senator had in those circumstances to go with the flow rather than trying to swim against the tide? Let's try to be real here. This wasn't some sort of Oxford, UK, think tank environment dealing with hypothecticals she was in.
 
I think you missed the point. She was one of two representatives of the people of New York in the U.S. Senate. Do you really think she could convince her constituents who had just suffered the Twin Towers tragedy to intellectualize that their government had the wrong instigators in their sights within the time constraints? Have you been to New York? Do you have any idea what pressure a New York senator had in those circumstances to go with the flow rather than trying to swim against the tide? Let's try to be real here. This wasn't some sort of Oxford, UK, think tank environment dealing with hypothecticals she was in.
This is true, but I recall reading many opinion pieces at the time remarking that her vote was a calculated move toward the center, to bolster her ballsy bona fides in prep for her [even then] inevitable run for the presidency. At the time, a vote against the war authorization was considered suicide for any serious candidate, at least in the eyes of the pundits. As usual, Democrats' fear of looking weak on defense led to them actually looking like they have no spine in dealing with BushCo.
 
This is true, but I recall reading many opinion pieces at the time remarking that her vote was a calculated move toward the center, to bolster her ballsy bona fides in prep for her [even then] inevitable run for the presidency. At the time, a vote against the war authorization was considered suicide for any serious candidate, at least in the eyes of the pundits. As usual, Democrats' fear of looking weak on defense led to them actually looking like they have no spine in dealing with BushCo.

Yeah, pretty much what I was saying--and on top of everything, as I noted, she was the U.S. senator from the state that had gotten terrorized (one of them--Virginia wasn't exactly left out).

And I think she misses a blowback to Obama on him saying he didn't vote the war. At the time he was a nobody in terms of this situation; nobody asked him what he thought. I think Clinton misses a beat by not coming back at him in this vein.
 
Yeah, pretty much what I was saying--and on top of everything, as I noted, she was the U.S. senator from the state that had gotten terrorized (one of them--Virginia wasn't exactly left out).

And I think she misses a blowback to Obama on him saying he didn't vote the war. At the time he was a nobody in terms of this situation; nobody asked him what he thought. I think Clinton misses a beat by not coming back at him in this vein.

Could be she's scouting a running mate . . . .
 
How's the person in second offering the vice-presidency to the person in first?

I've been wondering that myself. But it's been out there, discussed back and forth for the past few days.

I can't help but wonder what an advantageous position that would place Obama in . . . the potential to be in the White House for sixteen years.

Far fetched?

Maybe . . . .
 
How's the person in second offering the vice-presidency to the person in first?

Well, if he was dumb enough to take the offer (which he wasn't).

Also, there very likely was some party pressure to set this up as a "dream team" answer to the current situation.

The fun thought would be what she'd say if Obama offered her the same deal.
 
Well, if he was dumb enough to take the offer (which he wasn't).

Also, there very likely was some party pressure to set this up as a "dream team" answer to the current situation.

The fun thought would be what she'd say if Obama offered her the same deal.

Now, that would be interesting.

I doubt her ego could take it. ;)
 
Well, if he was dumb enough to take the offer (which he wasn't).

Also, there very likely was some party pressure to set this up as a "dream team" answer to the current situation.

The fun thought would be what she'd say if Obama offered her the same deal.

Obama's best running mate would be someone who shored up his weaknesses, not shared them.

We keep hearing about Hilary's "experience". As an actual elected official, as opposed to the wife of one, Obama far outstrips her.

I haven't really focused on this part yet... Edwards? How about Gen. Wesley Clark? Having a career military man on the ticket could do a lot to defuse the "soft on defense" thing the Repugs will start throwing...
 
I had a couple of guests a couple weeks ago, when Obama was in town. They went to his rally downtown. Went on and on about how inspirational he was. In a roundabout way, I tried to get some measure of the subject of his speech, but they kept focusing on his chairsma. The way they talked, I could have been hearing about Pastor John Hagee for all I knew.

They're casting their votes based on charisma.

God bless America.
 
I've been wondering that myself. But it's been out there, discussed back and forth for the past few days.

I can't help but wonder what an advantageous position that would place Obama in . . . the potential to be in the White House for sixteen years.

Far fetched?

Maybe . . . .

If he didn't have all of that accumulated support behind him, it would be a damn fine deal. A couple of years ago he was a nobody (on the national scene) with 15 minutes of fame giving a great speech at the last Democratic Convention. Even for his own good, I think he could use eight years at the center putting some practical expectation to all of those nice "I wills" that flow out of his mouth, coming so easy because he really doesn't have much of a clue about getting anything done.

And I snort at every tossed-out slogan about change and making Congress functional. The civil service bureaucrats are what keep the clock ticking (or not) and who stick around for as long as a civil service career lasts. Electing Houdini as president wouldn't change that reality.
 
Obama's best running mate would be someone who shored up his weaknesses, not shared them.

We keep hearing about Hilary's "experience". As an actual elected official, as opposed to the wife of one, Obama far outstrips her.

I haven't really focused on this part yet... Edwards? How about Gen. Wesley Clark? Having a career military man on the ticket could do a lot to defuse the "soft on defense" thing the Repugs will start throwing...

*Sigh* Hillary's "experience" isn't wrapped around being an elected official--it's wrapped around working in the trenches--where the work was actually being done--for decades on fundamental issues. On top of that, she had more involvement and experience accumulation as Bill Clinton's wife in the White House than any elected official in town was building. Her campaign does keep mentioning real work she's done on fundamental issues going back to the early 1970s. That isn't just hype. And she is, in fact, one of the most experienced people around in the inner workings of getting things done within an administration (some of it from hard knocks of not having gotten it done the way she tried it initially). Not even McCain can touch her in actual administration experience. Congress doesn't give you that experience. This is why most presidents come from governorships (just a smaller-scale version of the presidency) than from the Congress.

A legitimate reason not to vote for Hillary would be disagreement on what she'd do with her experience, not the quality of her experience in getting work done in a presidential administration up against anyone else anywhere close to running for the job.
 
I had a couple of guests a couple weeks ago, when Obama was in town. They went to his rally downtown. Went on and on about how inspirational he was. In a roundabout way, I tried to get some measure of the subject of his speech, but they kept focusing on his chairsma. The way they talked, I could have been hearing about Pastor John Hagee for all I knew.

They're casting their votes based on charisma.

God bless America.

Yes, I heard both Obama and Clinton live--twice each--in my town. I get the same thing from Obama. A great possibility down the road when he finds out where the men's room is in the Longworth building.

Listening to both of them made me pine for someone calmer and less up front, like Edwards.

But voters are sheep.
 
*Sigh* Hillary's "experience" isn't wrapped around being an elected official--it's wrapped around working in the trenches--where the work was actually being done--for decades on fundamental issues. On top of that, she had more involvement and experience accumulation as Bill Clinton's wife in the White House than any elected official in town was building. Her campaign does keep mentioning real work she's done on fundamental issues going back to the early 1970s. That isn't just hype. And she is, in fact, one of the most experienced people around in the inner workings of getting things done within an administration (some of it from hard knocks of not having gotten it done the way she tried it initially). Not even McCain can touch her in actual administration experience. Congress doesn't give you that experience. This is why most presidents come from governorships (just a smaller-scale version of the presidency) than from the Congress.

A legitimate reason not to vote for Hillary would be disagreement on what she'd do with her experience, not the quality of her experience in getting work done in a presidential administration up against anyone else anywhere close to running for the job.

For example, the whole issue of health care in the first go round. Point taken, especially the part about hard knocks. Nothing makes you remember a lesson better than when it knocks you on your ass.
 
For example, the whole issue of health care in the first go round. Point taken, especially the part about hard knocks. Nothing makes you remember a lesson better than when it knocks you on your ass.


Hmmm, was it you who put that "getting knocked down teaches you how to stand tall" closer in Spitzer's resignation speech? :D
 
Did anyone else watch the NBC news this evening? They spent about five minutes one on one with Ms Ferraro -- according to her, she made those remarks in a more or less private context, in response to a question at a lecture she was giving.

Some reporter picked them up, and then they got jumped on.

If there was widespread pubilicity it was not her intention.
Isn't that the way shit happens 99.9% of the time?
 
In a way this is both sad and funny. Geraldine F resigned from her volunteer, unpaid position with the Clinton Campaign Committee. The sad part is how Obama joined by the new media jumped on her. It seems as though we have come to a place where racism is so taboo among the white population that even a suggestion is enough to ruin you. Fear and eventual reprisals. And it doesn't seem to matter that there was a certain ring of truth to Geraldine's words and were not meant as a racial slur, but only a statement of fact. So you got what you wanted, Obama. :rolleyes:

Now the funny part. Geraldine is completly unapologenic about her remarks and, although she is no longer working as an unpaid, volunteer fund raiser, will continue on as a volunteer fund raiser for Hillary Clinton. That's pretty funny when you think about it.

Aw, Jen, there's nothing funny about it at all. The NYT and the Wishy-Washy Post flagellate themselves as soon as soon as someone like Ferraro makes a pertinent point. The point of the cartoon I posted was to show how the whole world is laughing at how we haven't come to terms with race. I'm sure Cloudy could give a scathing riposte to how all this black-white crap is irrelevant.

I would not vote for Obama because I feel - just my opinion - he is a lightweight. Nothing at all to do with the fact he is half-caste. It's just difficult to choose between the other two. McCain is old, Republican, but totally removed from the happy-clappy-Bappy Bush dynasty.

Hills is forever tainted by her incompetent lurch at med care, White Rock, and the egotistical bitterness that makes me understand why priapic Bill sought solace with Monica.

This November is a question of finding the least disastrous option.
 
Aw, Jen, there's nothing funny about it at all. The NYT and the Wishy-Washy Post flagellate themselves as soon as soon as someone like Ferraro makes a pertinent point. The point of the cartoon I posted was to show how the whole world is laughing at how we haven't come to terms with race. I'm sure Cloudy could give a scathing riposte to how all this black-white crap is irrelevant.

I would not vote for Obama because I feel - just my opinion - he is a lightweight. Nothing at all to do with the fact he is half-caste. It's just difficult to choose between the other two. McCain is old, Republican, but totally removed from the happy-clappy-Bappy Bush dynasty.

Hills is forever tainted by her incompetent lurch at med care, White Rock, and the egotistical bitterness that makes me understand why priapic Bill sought solace with Monica.

This November is a question of finding the least disastrous option.

Elle,
I don't know if you saw the quote from Obama this morning, but what he said was (paraphrased) - Clinton should drop out of the race becasue she is dividing the Democratic party.

Looking back that is almost a laughable statement. Before the Mississippi primary, the Clinton camp comented, "There are [in the deep south] whites who would not vote for an afro-american no matter who he was." Al Sharpton jumped on that and began screaming "Racist! Racist!" within hours, followed immediately by the Obama camp. Was it a racist comment or is it a statement of fact? Been to Mississippi or Alabama lately? Racism is just as strong in many communities in the deep south as it was in the 1940's. But to scream, "Racist!" when that fact is brought to light is equally politically racist and a complete denial of reality.

As I have said before, Furrao's remarks may have been ill advised, maybe even stupid, but there was a ring of truth in her words. By his own admission, Obama is where he is because of the afro-american and college student votes in all the states he's won other than Illinonis and Utah.

It is Obama's dependance on the afro-american vote and supporters that has split the party, not the Clintons. The continued harping on racism in this selection process is turning it into a comedy better suited for a dinnertime sitcom than a real national election.

Now heads are turning towards Florida. Clinton said yesterday, anything Florida wants to do for a redo is appropriate. Obama countered that he essentially couldn't trust a revote. Why? That seems to be as nebulous as everything else he claims he stands for.

I'm still laughing at the lunicy going on.
 
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