Submission: A Painful Introspection

[BiBunny]

Betwixt some of my own research and thoughts and a certain quote by a certain RJ in another thread yesterday, I have a lot on my mind. I thought I'd throw it out there to y'all and see what kind of response I get. Not entirely sure where I want to go with this thread yet, so I don't mind at all if someone else takes it and runs with it.

The certain RJ quote:

I would guess that for some [submissives] there would be some society type pressure along these lines, but probably what hits the marks closer to home would be for some, its just plain scary to give up control. I do think though it would make for an interesting thread in and of it self.

I almost put this in the sub haven, but I thought this might be of interest to others, so I chose to put it here. I've spoken with a few people via PM about this kind of thing, trying to find out where my own mental hang-up is about submission. I've told myself that I can't do it again, but, on the other hand, I realize that I'm missing a vital part of me by choosing not to serve. I've been making a myriad of excuses as to why I'm not a sub or a slave. I've always just self-labeled as a pet to just sidestep the whole issue.

Now, while y'all will still have to pry the "pet" label from my cold, dead fingers , I've pretty much realized why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm afraid. (And not just of the frogs, either, KC, so keep 'em out of here! )

You see, I'm sure nobody's going to believe this, but Bunny is a painfully shy, unconfrontational, and rather timid person. This gets me taken advantage of more often than not, particularly by those I care about, oddly enough. Bunny also isn't very good at choosing partners, either. When I entered my first D/s, M/s, whatever-the-heck-it-was relationship, I thought, "Maybe finally someone will understand and appreciate this side of me that wants so badly to please and fulfill another person."

Well...we all know how that worked out.

I read things here about how so-and-so broke both his legs and still somehow inexplicably served Mistress her breakfast every morning while on crutches, and how so-and-so had double pneumonia, but still ventured out in the cold every day to get Master his daily Starbucks fix. And the part of me that gets taken advantage of on a regular basis screams, "Absolutely not!"

Yes, I know, it depends on the people and the relationship. Yes, I know, one would do well to choose one's partners wisely. Those are obviously the first things I said to myself, too. But can we move beyond that, since I've addressed those things in my head and am still concerned?

To submit, Bunny has to care deeply for the other person in a romantic "aching to please" way. (Yes, love. I said it. Love.) Bunny has yet to have a man not take her for granted and treat her like yesterday's garbage. So this, I suppose, is where the cognitive dissonance comes in. I simply don't trust my own judgment.

Any thoughts, feelings, etc.? Like I said, I'm not 100% certain where I want to go with this, so anybody can jack the thread and run with it by posting their own concerns or personal anecdotes or whatever.

 

[snowbyte]

(Yes, love. I said it. Love.)

I can understand the need for there to be love for you to serve. But you must trust first. And that takes time. Time enough to tell (hopefully) whether the potential target of your affection is a douche or not.

"Trust, Love, Serve" in that order.

Falling in love is a different beast altogether. As I've said before and will again, it's more like an addiction than simply loving somebody. When you're in love your judgement is often impaired and your priorities can get scrambled making it far easier to make bad decisions. I'm not saying don't fall in love, I'm saying that controlling your emotions and allowing it to happen when you want to will lead to much greater success in relationships.
(I don't know if I got the tone right here; it's not meant to sound preachy.)

This is my view on the matter, fwiw.

 

[BiBunny]

I can understand the need for there to be love for you to serve. But you must trust first. And that takes time. Time enough to tell (hopefully) whether the potential target of your affection is a douche or not.

"Trust, Love, Serve" in that order.

Falling in love is a different beast altogether. As I've said before and will again, it's more like an addiction than simply loving somebody. When you're in love your judgement is often impaired and your priorities can get scrambled making it far easier to make bad decisions. I'm not saying don't fall in love, I'm saying that controlling your emotions and allowing it to happen when you want to will lead to much greater success in relationships.
(I don't know if I got the tone right here; it's not meant to sound preachy.)

This is my view on the matter, fwiw.

Thank you.

It's rather unfortunate that some of us can't choose whether to love or not to love. We can choose to continue a relationship or not, but we can't change our feelings for a person. Also, unfortunately, to get that kind of slavish devotion from me, I have to be head over heels "in love."

Meh.

I get what you're saying about taking it slowly, though. I'll certainly do better about that the next time I decide to get involved with someone. I've found, oddly enough, that the more cautious and cynical I am about it, the harder I end up falling in spite of myself. I know there are no guarantees in anything, but this little paradox makes me want to just throw all caution into the wind and be impulsive for once in my life.

Luckily, I know better.

So I tiptoe around, tentatively, because I don't trust my own judgment. How do you learn to trust yourself? I'm good at screwing things up monumentally, I'm afraid. Do you take a lot of time to yourself and not get involved in anything serious (which is what I've been doing, and I don't think it's working), or do you have to take calculated risks occasionally to learn to make better decisions, which, therefore, teaches you to trust your own judgment better next time?

There is a reason I'm asking, by the way, and anybody please feel free to jump in at any time.

 

[Badger82]

Betwixt some of my own research and thoughts and a certain quote by a certain RJ in another thread yesterday, I have a lot on my mind. I thought I'd throw it out there to y'all and see what kind of response I get. Not entirely sure where I want to go with this thread yet, so I don't mind at all if someone else takes it and runs with it.

The certain RJ quote:



I almost put this in the sub haven, but I thought this might be of interest to others, so I chose to put it here. I've spoken with a few people via PM about this kind of thing, trying to find out where my own mental hang-up is about submission. I've told myself that I can't do it again, but, on the other hand, I realize that I'm missing a vital part of me by choosing not to serve. I've been making a myriad of excuses as to why I'm not a sub or a slave. I've always just self-labeled as a pet to just sidestep the whole issue.

Now, while y'all will still have to pry the "pet" label from my cold, dead fingers , I've pretty much realized why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm afraid. (And not just of the frogs, either, KC, so keep 'em out of here! )

You see, I'm sure nobody's going to believe this, but Bunny is a painfully shy, unconfrontational, and rather timid person. This gets me taken advantage of more often than not, particularly by those I care about, oddly enough. Bunny also isn't very good at choosing partners, either. When I entered my first D/s, M/s, whatever-the-heck-it-was relationship, I thought, "Maybe finally someone will understand and appreciate this side of me that wants so badly to please and fulfill another person."

Well...we all know how that worked out.

I read things here about how so-and-so broke both his legs and still somehow inexplicably served Mistress her breakfast every morning while on crutches, and how so-and-so had double pneumonia, but still ventured out in the cold every day to get Master his daily Starbucks fix. And the part of me that gets taken advantage of on a regular basis screams, "Absolutely not!"

Yes, I know, it depends on the people and the relationship. Yes, I know, one would do well to choose one's partners wisely. Those are obviously the first things I said to myself, too. But can we move beyond that, since I've addressed those things in my head and am still concerned?

To submit, Bunny has to care deeply for the other person in a romantic "aching to please" way. (Yes, love. I said it. Love.) Bunny has yet to have a man not take her for granted and treat her like yesterday's garbage. So this, I suppose, is where the cognitive dissonance comes in. I simply don't trust my own judgment.

Any thoughts, feelings, etc.? Like I said, I'm not 100% certain where I want to go with this, so anybody can jack the thread and run with it by posting their own concerns or personal anecdotes or whatever.

This is something i've come here to figer out myself. So i dont think your alone bunny, I still havent explored all my reasons for wanting to submit to another person yet.

I was brain washed into being gorn style life at the age of 7 by my family of all people. It wasent untill my handler showed me the way out, was i able to become a normal thinking human. Now some 7 years later and im almost craving for the same place, but of my own choise.

Im almost positive that there are people out there who would also like to read others views or thoughts over your post BiBunny

 

[Lalah]

Maybe you're just not much into power games? You can be submissive and pleasing to someone without entering a power transfer relationship.

That's what me and my lover do. We're on equal power in the relationship and while in general I prefer to be submissive and have him take the lead we can and sometimes do switch roles around. Or sometimes we're just not feeling kinky and just act normally.

 

[snowbyte]

Thank you.

Yer welcome, young lady.

It's rather unfortunate that some of us can't choose whether to love or not to love.

Maybe 'control' was too strong of a word. Maybe 'manage' would be more appropriate.

We can choose to continue a relationship or not, but we can't change our feelings for a person.

Walking away from a relationship is a form of management. I've walked away from a few relationships with women that I've loved because I eventually understood that in spite of the love, the relationship was ultimately harmful.

I've found, oddly enough, that the more cautious and cynical I am about it, the harder I end up falling in spite of myself.

Understood.

I know there are no guarantees in anything, but this little paradox makes me want to just throw all caution into the wind and be impulsive for once in my life.

Luckily, I know better.

Very wise of you.

So I tiptoe around, tentatively, because I don't trust my own judgment. How do you learn to trust yourself?

You learn where your weaknesses are and adjust accordingly. I had a bad weakness for strippers for awhile when I lived in NJ. My better judgment would fly right out the window. I eventually figure this out and stopped going. Or if I did go, take my gf with me In time, the problem disappeared.

Do you take a lot of time to yourself and not get involved in anything serious (which is what I've been doing, and I don't think it's working), or do you have to take calculated risks occasionally to learn to make better decisions, which, therefore, teaches you to trust your own judgment better next time?

I'm old enough now that I've done both repeatedly. Sometimes I'd take a break for 2 or 3 years, but eventually I start consciously taking calculated risks, not wanting to repeat my past mistakes. I'll still epic fail on occasion, but I recover more quickly now than I did 20 years ago. I wasn't aware of this process when I was younger. I had to learn the hard way, like most people.

Continue the introspection. Continue to be very aware of what's going on with yourself emotionally. You'll hopefully have a much shorter learning curve with this than I did.

There is a reason I'm asking, by the way, and anybody please feel free to jump in at any time.

You found somebody, maybe???

 

[kushielstoy]

Just sitting here thinking....

Dear Bunny,

I know that this sounds weird, but it is as if you channeled my pain tonight and put into very eloquent words the struggle I am trying to work through.

Thank you for being honest and open.
Thank you for being willing to grow and learn.
Thank you for sharing with us.

I have no words of wisdom or comfort. I wish I did. But I can say that you are not alone in this process.

 

[BiBunny]

This is something i've come here to figer out myself. So i dont think your alone bunny, I still havent explored all my reasons for wanting to submit to another person yet.

I was brain washed into being gorn style life at the age of 7 by my family of all people. It wasent untill my handler showed me the way out, was i able to become a normal thinking human. Now some 7 years later and im almost craving for the same place, but of my own choise.

Im almost positive that there are people out there who would also like to read others views or thoughts over your post BiBunny

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who sometimes feels this way. Maybe in a way my own situation was a bit like yours in that I found someone who overwhelming made me want to do this. But, in a way, it wasn't through sheer choice. I loved him so much that I'd have done anything in the world he wanted. So, you know, maybe it wasn't entirely of my own free will, and maybe this time I want to go in with my eyes wide open. Hmmm...something else to think about. Thank you.

Maybe you're just not much into power games? You can be submissive and pleasing to someone without entering a power transfer relationship.

That's what me and my lover do. We're on equal power in the relationship and while in general I prefer to be submissive and have him take the lead we can and sometimes do switch roles around. Or sometimes we're just not feeling kinky and just act normally.

I think I am into power exchange, at least to some extent. I won't say I want to fall headfirst into TPE-type slavery, either, though. In my previous relationship, I had an arrangement similar to yours. We were both switches, and even though I Topped him from time to time, he was still the one who was in control. Bleh...it's confusing. I don't think that power exchange (notice the phrase "power exchange," not TPE here) and regular old romanticism are necessarily separate from one another, at least not in my head.

Yer welcome, young lady.

Maybe 'control' was too strong of a word. Maybe 'manage' would be more appropriate.

Walking away from a relationship is a form of management. I've walked away from a few relationships with women that I've loved because I eventually understood that in spite of the love, the relationship was ultimately harmful.

Understood.

Very wise of you.

You learn where your weaknesses are and adjust accordingly. I had a bad weakness for strippers for awhile when I lived in NJ. My better judgment would fly right out the window. I eventually figure this out and stopped going. Or if I did go, take my gf with me In time, the problem disappeared.

I'm old enough now that I've done both repeatedly. Sometimes I'd take a break for 2 or 3 years, but eventually I start consciously taking calculated risks, not wanting to repeat my past mistakes. I'll still epic fail on occasion, but I recover more quickly now than I did 20 years ago. I wasn't aware of this process when I was younger. I had to learn the hard way, like most people.

Continue the introspection. Continue to be very aware of what's going on with yourself emotionally. You'll hopefully have a much shorter learning curve with this than I did.

Hmmm...learn where my weaknesses are and adjust accordingly. Well, I think I've got the "learn where they are" part down. Now for the "adjust accordingly" part. Something else for me to think about.

You found somebody, maybe???

Oh, wouldn't y'all like to know?

Dear Bunny,

I know that this sounds weird, but it is as if you channeled my pain tonight and put into very eloquent words the struggle I am trying to work through.

Thank you for being honest and open.
Thank you for being willing to grow and learn.
Thank you for sharing with us.

I have no words of wisdom or comfort. I wish I did. But I can say that you are not alone in this process.

I'm sorry you're going through it, too. It sucketh. But, on the other hand, glad to hear I could be some assistance. I hope you're able to find some answers here as well, and I wish you the best of luck, too.

 

[nh23]

I don't know if this goes with the theme of the thread or not..but I had some thoughts floating around inside my head. I claim the title submissive. I've never really thought of myself as a slave..but here lately after talking to several people and putting my thoughts and feelings out there. I am a submissive..but with someone I care about very deeply I have the mindset of a slave. I still have the right to my hard limits and my safeword..but I'll be damned if I'll use them. If said person I care about deeply asks something of me..hard limit or not I'm going to try my hardest to do it. My desire to please overcomes my limits.. For example I may think that I'm at my limit during pain play, but if I know he needs to continue. I won't safeword. I want to please. I want him to feel the emotions he needs to feel.

I suppose the reason I've always resisted the title slave because of when I see situations where the slave has a broken leg and the Master says I don't give a shit..you're still going to do all of your chores. My mind screams at that. I don't get it. But after a discussion today I was told.. A Master has an obligation to take care of his slave. When he cares deeply about her he will make sure his property is well taken care of. Could he order her to do things when she is ill or hurt? Sure he has that right. But would a good Master? No, he would want his property to be in the best shape possible. Emotionally and physically. So would I push hard limits..maybe... but only knowing that it wasn't going to be emotionally or physically damaging to her. Made a bit more sense to me said that way.

For the right person..someone I care very deeply about..then yes I have the mindset of a slave. I choose to remain with the title submissive though.

 

[Lalah]

I just want to point out that you can let someone overcome your limits, let him get his way with you, without being his slave. I do it all the time with my lovers, this is how I ended trying so many things that would scare and repulse most people, including me at first.

Going beyound your limit is not something unique to power transfer, or even the BDSM community. It's something that is happening in all kind of relationships.

 

[nh23]

I just want to point out that you can let someone overcome your limits, let him get his way with you, without being his slave. I do it all the time with my lovers, this is how I ended trying so many things that would scare and repulse most people, including me at first.

Going beyound your limit is not something unique to power transfer, or even the BDSM community. It's something that is happening in all kind of relationships.

*nods* I agree. Which is why I said slave mindset instead of slave.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't know if this goes with the theme of the thread or not..but I had some thoughts floating around inside my head. I claim the title submissive. I've never really thought of myself as a slave..but here lately after talking to several people and putting my thoughts and feelings out there. I am a submissive..but with someone I care about very deeply I have the mindset of a slave. I still have the right to my hard limits and my safeword..but I'll be damned if I'll use them. If said person I care about deeply asks something of me..hard limit or not I'm going to try my hardest to do it. My desire to please overcomes my limits.. For example I may think that I'm at my limit during pain play, but if I know he needs to continue. I won't safeword. I want to please. I want him to feel the emotions he needs to feel.

This is pretty much me to a "t." Though, admittedly, the safeword thing in my case may be partly stubborn pride.

I suppose the reason I've always resisted the title slave because of when I see situations where the slave has a broken leg and the Master says I don't give a shit..you're still going to do all of your chores. My mind screams at that. I don't get it. But after a discussion today I was told.. A Master has an obligation to take care of his slave. When he cares deeply about her he will make sure his property is well taken care of. Could he order her to do things when she is ill or hurt? Sure he has that right. But would a good Master? No, he would want his property to be in the best shape possible. Emotionally and physically. So would I push hard limits..maybe... but only knowing that it wasn't going to be emotionally or physically damaging to her. Made a bit more sense to me said that way.

For the right person..someone I care very deeply about..then yes I have the mindset of a slave. I choose to remain with the title submissive though.

I think this is why I've chosen to retain "pet" all these years. Your post makes me think about something, incidentally. We all know Bunny shows horses. She talks about it all the time, and, oh, God, hold your breath because she's about to launch into another one of those horse analogies.

For a lot of people, horses are livestock, worthy of proper nutrition, shelter, grooming, veterinary care, shoes, safe equipment with which to do their jobs, etc. because to neglect those basic needs would make the value of the livestock decrease. They're trained as the owner (or trainer or whoever) sees fit, and they're rewarded or punished as their actions require in the doing of their jobs. Their owners are pleased when they do well, and their owners may genuinely enjoy being around them. But let's say a horse owned by such an owner were to die. The owner would be bummed about the loss of the valuable livestock and would probably think, "Well, that sucks," but it would basically stop there because the owner would just use the loss of the animal as a tax write-off and go purchase another one to do the job the deceased animal performed.

On the other hand, my horses are pets with jobs to me. I (and my parents), of course, provide them with the things to meet their basic needs. I ride them and train them, and they do their jobs for me. I reward and punish as necessary, too, but all mine are basically well-trained enough that "punishment" never really comes into the equation. A quick slap to remind them not to be stupid or whatever is usually sufficient. I compete on them, and I take that very seriously. But I buy them Christmas presents. And give them special treats for their birthdays (or their approximate birthdays for the ones who don't have papers). Sometimes I just go sit down outside in the pasture while they're hanging out and give them apples or carrots or cookies or whatever if they come over to see what I'm up to. And I hug them and kiss their noses and rub their ears, and they seem to genuinely enjoy it. I let them get away with their silly (not dangerous) antics under saddle sometimes as long as they know that when they enter the ring, it's time to get to work. If one of them, God forbid, were to die, I'd be devastated and cry my eyes out because I love each and every one of them with all my heart. I'd probably wear black for weeks.

The owner in the first example probably doesn't treat his/her horses much differently than I treat mine. The difference between the two examples is more a matter of perception than anything. The first owner views his animals as assets. I view mine as companions. I'll argue 'til my last breath that I'll get more "heart" out of my horses than the first owner will out of his because of that minor difference. (Can you tell who has a well-worn copy of Black Beauty that she still reads fairly regularly?) But I don't treat them that way to get better service out of them. I treat them that way because I love them. And, to anthropomorphize for a moment, I think they love me, too.

The moral of the story is that this is why I choose to identify as a "pet" rather than a "slave," because "pet," to me, denotes "companion," whereas "slave" denotes "livestock." Or whatever. It's late. I'm rambling, and I can't come up with better words to describe the concepts I'm going for at the moment. Slaves, please don't jump in this thread saying, "Bunny's calling me a cow!" Thanks.

But I need an Owner like me. I loved my first Master more than my own life. He may have loved me, too--I don't know--, but, to me, it seemed as if he took me for granted. I know without question with the way submission and love are inextricably bound together in my head that I need more than someone who views me as an asset rather than a companion. It hurts too much to give all of myself like that to another person and get nothing in return. The last two years have been pretty much nothing but pure hell with occasional spots of heaven mixed in here and there. I need the opposite--heaven with occasional hell (because I know there's no way anything can be perfect all the time). I need someone to give me as much of himself as I'm giving him of myself.

But a lot of times, the Dom/me, or probably more accurately, the Master/Mistress, is viewed as a Billy Joe/Billie Jo Badass type who treats his/her slave like the first owner in my example. Been there, done that. It ripped my heart out, and I can't do that again. I've never been able to separate the idea of Master and lover, and I refuse to be put in a place where someone is my Master and lover, while I'm just his disposable playtoy again. I'm not saying I need something smushy and cuddly. I think we all know my disdain for that. I need sadism to the nth degree and a bit of Billy Joe Badass, but I also need to know that I can do my foolish antics under saddle, so to speak, and be loved in spite of it.

There. The most unromantic person on this damned forum just admitted that she needs her Master to be as devoted to her as she is to him. Chew on that for awhile. I feel so naked!

I'm sorry for the long post, but, nh, your post got me on a roll and, I think, helped me to articulate what I've been trying to say better. Thank you, honey.

 

[Lalah]

*nods* I agree. Which is why I said slave mindset instead of slave.

I know what you mean; I have one limit, one thing that really doesn't turn me and sicken me a little; scat stuff. But if I really love a guy I'm willing to let him try it once with me, so long as it's just before a shower.

Edit: BiBunny. Interesting post about titles. Personally I like to be called "his little slut" and sometimes his "his fucktoy" although the second one only because I know he knows we're on equal footing and none of us own the other. You could say we're roleplaying that one.

It's strange how simple words can have so much power.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I can understand the feeling of not wanting to trust yourself, especially after the way your last foray into D/s ended. It's really hard to be rational and all SSC when you fancy the ass off somebody and want nothing more than to be thrown around and used and worry about the consequences later. Very tempting.

The fact that you're here opening up about your ambivalent feelings and lack of self trust is a big step IMO. Acknowledging a problem like this is always more than half the battle.

I do wonder whether a partial solution for the immediate future might be to get your Kitty on side and let her vet people for you. She knows you so well and would be ideally placed to decide whether your inner masochistic slut is ruling Bunny's common sense. You're very lucky to have someone so close who you can confide in on this journey. Hearing her more objective view of things might be the reality check you need to avoid getting involved with another asshat.

Or am I wrong? I don't know either of you that well and can't say what would and wouldn't work for you.

 

[nh23]

This is pretty much me to a "t." Though, admittedly, the safeword thing in my case may be partly stubborn pride.



I think this is why I've chosen to retain "pet" all these years. Your post makes me think about something, incidentally. We all know Bunny shows horses. She talks about it all the time, and, oh, God, hold your breath because she's about to launch into another one of those horse analogies.

For a lot of people, horses are livestock, worthy of proper nutrition, shelter, grooming, veterinary care, shoes, safe equipment with which to do their jobs, etc. because to neglect those basic needs would make the value of the livestock decrease. They're trained as the owner (or trainer or whoever) sees fit, and they're rewarded or punished as their actions require in the doing of their jobs. Their owners are pleased when they do well, and their owners may genuinely enjoy being around them. But let's say a horse owned by such an owner were to die. The owner would be bummed about the loss of the valuable livestock and would probably think, "Well, that sucks," but it would basically stop there because the owner would just use the loss of the animal as a tax write-off and go purchase another one to do the job the deceased animal performed.

On the other hand, my horses are pets with jobs to me. I (and my parents), of course, provide them with the things to meet their basic needs. I ride them and train them, and they do their jobs for me. I reward and punish as necessary, too, but all mine are basically well-trained enough that "punishment" never really comes into the equation. A quick slap to remind them not to be stupid or whatever is usually sufficient. I compete on them, and I take that very seriously. But I buy them Christmas presents. And give them special treats for their birthdays (or their approximate birthdays for the ones who don't have papers). Sometimes I just go sit down outside in the pasture while they're hanging out and give them apples or carrots or cookies or whatever if they come over to see what I'm up to. And I hug them and kiss their noses and rub their ears, and they seem to genuinely enjoy it. I let them get away with their silly (not dangerous) antics under saddle sometimes as long as they know that when they enter the ring, it's time to get to work. If one of them, God forbid, were to die, I'd be devastated and cry my eyes out because I love each and every one of them with all my heart. I'd probably wear black for weeks.

The owner in the first example probably doesn't treat his/her horses much differently than I treat mine. The difference between the two examples is more a matter of perception than anything. The first owner views his animals as assets. I view mine as companions. I'll argue 'til my last breath that I'll get more "heart" out of my horses than the first owner will out of his because of that minor difference. (Can you tell who has a well-worn copy of Black Beauty that she still reads fairly regularly?) But I don't treat them that way to get better service out of them. I treat them that way because I love them. And, to anthropomorphize for a moment, I think they love me, too.

The moral of the story is that this is why I choose to identify as a "pet" rather than a "slave," because "pet," to me, denotes "companion," whereas "slave" denotes "livestock." Or whatever. It's late. I'm rambling, and I can't come up with better words to describe the concepts I'm going for at the moment. Slaves, please don't jump in this thread saying, "Bunny's calling me a cow!" Thanks.

But I need an Owner like me. I loved my first Master more than my own life. He may have loved me, too--I don't know--, but, to me, it seemed as if he took me for granted. I know without question with the way submission and love are inextricably bound together in my head that I need more than someone who views me as an asset rather than a companion. It hurts too much to give all of myself like that to another person and get nothing in return. The last two years have been pretty much nothing but pure hell with occasional spots of heaven mixed in here and there. I need the opposite--heaven with occasional hell (because I know there's no way anything can be perfect all the time). I need someone to give me as much of himself as I'm giving him of myself.

But a lot of times, the Dom/me, or probably more accurately, the Master/Mistress, is viewed as a Billy Joe/Billie Jo Badass type who treats his/her slave like the first owner in my example. Been there, done that. It ripped my heart out, and I can't do that again. I've never been able to separate the idea of Master and lover, and I refuse to be put in a place where someone is my Master and lover, while I'm just his disposable playtoy again. I'm not saying I need something smushy and cuddly. I think we all know my disdain for that. I need sadism to the nth degree and a bit of Billy Joe Badass, but I also need to know that I can do my foolish antics under saddle, so to speak, and be loved in spite of it.

There. The most unromantic person on this damned forum just admitted that she needs her Master to be as devoted to her as she is to him. Chew on that for awhile. I feel so naked!

I'm sorry for the long post, but, nh, your post got me on a roll and, I think, helped me to articulate what I've been trying to say better. Thank you, honey.

Glad I could help..and I so know what you're feeling.

 

[BiBunny]

I can understand the feeling of not wanting to trust yourself, especially after the way your last foray into D/s ended. It's really hard to be rational and all SSC when you fancy the ass off somebody and want nothing more than to be thrown around and used and worry about the consequences later. Very tempting.

The fact that you're here opening up about your ambivalent feelings and lack of self trust is a big step IMO. Acknowledging a problem like this is always more than half the battle.

I do wonder whether a partial solution for the immediate future might be to get your Kitty on side and let her vet people for you. She knows you so well and would be ideally placed to decide whether your inner masochistic slut is ruling Bunny's common sense. You're very lucky to have someone so close who you can confide in on this journey. Hearing her more objective view of things might be the reality check you need to avoid getting involved with another asshat.

Or am I wrong? I don't know either of you that well and can't say what would and wouldn't work for you.

I think you're right. I have friends who want to look out for me, but I question their ability to do so sometimes. It's not because I think they're stupid or because they don't have good judgment. It's just that they know I've been hurting for so long, and they want things to work out for me so badly, so that I'll be happy. Because of that, they may possibly err on the side of too optimistic as well. This is absolutely not a slam at them because I'm the same way about them as they are about me.

But, on the other hand, I think if three or four or a dozen people think someone's not an asshat, then that's more valuable than just ME saying someone's not an asshat. More things to think about. Thank you, Velvet.

 

[BiBunny]

I know what you mean; I have one limit, one thing that really doesn't turn me and sicken me a little; scat stuff. But if I really love a guy I'm willing to let him try it once with me, so long as it's just before a shower.

Edit: BiBunny. Interesting post about titles. Personally I like to be called "his little slut" and sometimes his "his fucktoy" although the second one only because I know he knows we're on equal footing and none of us own the other. You could say we're roleplaying that one.

It's strange how simple words can have so much power.

Yep, words and perceptions are strong things.

And I don't mind being called "slut" or "fucktoy" or any number of names, either. It's the motives behind them that are important. I probably should've pointed that out. *Sigh* It's late (early), but this is partly what's been keeping me up so much at night.

 

[Essene]

This is pretty much me to a "t." Though, admittedly, the safeword thing in my case may be partly stubborn pride.



I think this is why I've chosen to retain "pet" all these years. Your post makes me think about something, incidentally. We all know Bunny shows horses. She talks about it all the time, and, oh, God, hold your breath because she's about to launch into another one of those horse analogies.

For a lot of people, horses are livestock, worthy of proper nutrition, shelter, grooming, veterinary care, shoes, safe equipment with which to do their jobs, etc. because to neglect those basic needs would make the value of the livestock decrease. They're trained as the owner (or trainer or whoever) sees fit, and they're rewarded or punished as their actions require in the doing of their jobs. Their owners are pleased when they do well, and their owners may genuinely enjoy being around them. But let's say a horse owned by such an owner were to die. The owner would be bummed about the loss of the valuable livestock and would probably think, "Well, that sucks," but it would basically stop there because the owner would just use the loss of the animal as a tax write-off and go purchase another one to do the job the deceased animal performed.

On the other hand, my horses are pets with jobs to me. I (and my parents), of course, provide them with the things to meet their basic needs. I ride them and train them, and they do their jobs for me. I reward and punish as necessary, too, but all mine are basically well-trained enough that "punishment" never really comes into the equation. A quick slap to remind them not to be stupid or whatever is usually sufficient. I compete on them, and I take that very seriously. But I buy them Christmas presents. And give them special treats for their birthdays (or their approximate birthdays for the ones who don't have papers). Sometimes I just go sit down outside in the pasture while they're hanging out and give them apples or carrots or cookies or whatever if they come over to see what I'm up to. And I hug them and kiss their noses and rub their ears, and they seem to genuinely enjoy it. I let them get away with their silly (not dangerous) antics under saddle sometimes as long as they know that when they enter the ring, it's time to get to work. If one of them, God forbid, were to die, I'd be devastated and cry my eyes out because I love each and every one of them with all my heart. I'd probably wear black for weeks.

The owner in the first example probably doesn't treat his/her horses much differently than I treat mine. The difference between the two examples is more a matter of perception than anything. The first owner views his animals as assets. I view mine as companions. I'll argue 'til my last breath that I'll get more "heart" out of my horses than the first owner will out of his because of that minor difference. (Can you tell who has a well-worn copy of Black Beauty that she still reads fairly regularly?) But I don't treat them that way to get better service out of them. I treat them that way because I love them. And, to anthropomorphize for a moment, I think they love me, too.

The moral of the story is that this is why I choose to identify as a "pet" rather than a "slave," because "pet," to me, denotes "companion," whereas "slave" denotes "livestock." Or whatever. It's late. I'm rambling, and I can't come up with better words to describe the concepts I'm going for at the moment. Slaves, please don't jump in this thread saying, "Bunny's calling me a cow!" Thanks.

But I need an Owner like me. I loved my first Master more than my own life. He may have loved me, too--I don't know--, but, to me, it seemed as if he took me for granted. I know without question with the way submission and love are inextricably bound together in my head that I need more than someone who views me as an asset rather than a companion. It hurts too much to give all of myself like that to another person and get nothing in return. The last two years have been pretty much nothing but pure hell with occasional spots of heaven mixed in here and there. I need the opposite--heaven with occasional hell (because I know there's no way anything can be perfect all the time). I need someone to give me as much of himself as I'm giving him of myself.

But a lot of times, the Dom/me, or probably more accurately, the Master/Mistress, is viewed as a Billy Joe/Billie Jo Badass type who treats his/her slave like the first owner in my example. Been there, done that. It ripped my heart out, and I can't do that again. I've never been able to separate the idea of Master and lover, and I refuse to be put in a place where someone is my Master and lover, while I'm just his disposable playtoy again. I'm not saying I need something smushy and cuddly. I think we all know my disdain for that. I need sadism to the nth degree and a bit of Billy Joe Badass, but I also need to know that I can do my foolish antics under saddle, so to speak, and be loved in spite of it.

There. The most unromantic person on this damned forum just admitted that she needs her Master to be as devoted to her as she is to him. Chew on that for awhile. I feel so naked!

I'm sorry for the long post, but, nh, your post got me on a roll and, I think, helped me to articulate what I've been trying to say better. Thank you, honey.

Well I'm off to bed, and while we may disagree on our choices of words, I think this is a beautiful post. I can't think straight enough to say anything right now other than - thank you for sharing a part of yourself with us.

I think you'll find what you're looking for at some point. You definitely deserve it.
Just as with many things in life there's a balance to be had. To be thinking and feeling at the same time is more difficult than many realize. When you're open like this, some really beautiful things can be observed.

 

[BiBunny]

Well I'm off to bed, and while we may disagree on our choices of words, I think this is a beautiful post. I can't think straight enough to say anything right now other than - thankyou for sharing a part of yourself with us.

I think you'll find what you're looking for at some point. You definitely deserve it.
Just as with many things in life there's a balance to be had. To be thinking and feeling at the same time is more difficult than many realize. When you're open like this, some really beautiful things can be observed.

Thank you.

I've been hesitating about posting this for awhile. I didn't know if I could articulate it well enough, or even if it would be of interest to anybody but me.

As far as finding what I'm looking for--it's amazing how things can drop into your lap at random when you're not even looking for them. That's always the way it happens with me.

But I'm definitely trying to get my head screwed on straight, so I'll realize it when I find it.

 

[_kiana_]

First off, I'd like to say it is very admirable that you've come back to thinking about this topic and working it out for yourself despite what you've been through in the past. I don't know the particulars (even when it happened) but it is a very good thing that you're at this point now.

I do wonder whether a partial solution for the immediate future might be to get your Kitty on side and let her vet people for you.

I was going to suggest the exact same thing. And I'd like to emphasize Kitty. Velvet didn't suggest simply asking friends their opinions - she mentioned Kitty. Because it's well known that you and her are very close and, as far as I can tell, trust each other implicitly. Whenever I'm thinking about meeting someone as a potential partner, I talk to my husband about the person. He has my best interests at heart even if it means saying "no" to the possibility. And he is able to keep unbiased about it. From what I can tell, I think Kitty would be able to do that for you.

For the right person..someone I care very deeply about..then yes I have the mindset of a slave. I choose to remain with the title submissive though.

I'm quite similar. If I get to talking to someone about D/s enough it comes out that I actually consider myself a submissive with the possibility of being a slave in the right circumstances. But I tend to keep that quiet, as most people hear "slave" and have some extreme feelings about the word, none of which are terribly accurate/fair.

The moral of the story is that this is why I choose to identify as a "pet" rather than a "slave," because "pet," to me, denotes "companion," whereas "slave" denotes "livestock."

As for the wording, I've seen and heard several self identified slaves use the word "chattel". *shrug* Just a bit of info.

I completely understand your analogy though. The reality is that a lot of the examples of unwell slaves being forced to do stupid things is just that...stupid. They're unrealistic and I can bet most of them are wank fodder. As nh23 said, a worthy Master or Mistress would be doing what is best for their partner. Yes, partner. Because THAT reality is that any relationship is a partnership. It simply can not sustain otherwise. So while I know some slaves who do have to keep doing the chores and such while they might have a tummy bug or cold, if they truly got sick or injured their PYL would make sure their physical well being came first.

I think it's just a matter of finding someone with the same sort of outlook. And, well, all that stuff about learning to trust your own judgment, taking risks, yadda yadda yadda.

Easier said than done, I know. But you'll figure it out sometime.

 

[BiaTcHiNFiRe]

I've never been able to separate the idea of Master and lover, and I refuse to be put in a place where someone is my Master and lover, while I'm just his disposable playtoy again.
There. The most unromantic person on this damned forum just admitted that she needs her Master to be as devoted to her as she is to him. Chew on that for awhile. I feel so naked!

I can relate to this very much. I so understand the way you feel Bunny...

This is something I dunno as well. I couldnt have a PYL with who I would "just play". I know myself, I would fall for him soon. I am just like that, I ALWAYS get emotionaly atached. When I love someone I put all my feelings into it, into that person, into that sharing. I must say its damaging and selfdestructive and I am not fancy to do that again anytime soon.

I want someone to who I could belong with all of my being. God knows if my Sir lived nearer, it would be him. I dunno other man who ever treated me with so much of love and care as he does. Wish I was born in USA, things would be much easirer then.

I have a man with who I live, yet I feel all alone. Even with him sleeping right by my side. I am sort of a partner and wife, yet I feel single and unloved. I am sort of taken, but I dont feel like that. I dont feel like I have a partner at all. I just feel allowed to sleep by his side and have him around now and then. How ironic.

I love this quote "Nothing hurts more than giving your all to someone that gives you NOTHING."

There are times when I am thinking what my prob is with men and I dunno. I am thinking if I am really THAT bad and if I really want THAT much?? I dont think I want much. I think I want very less actualy. I just want someone to enjoy me as much as I enojy them. Love me as much as I love them.

I am okay with getting less than I need, but dont get EVEN the less suck. And hurts...

I want the same as you Bunny. I want a man who would be devoted to me the same way as I am devoted to him. Why is that so hard for a guy to do??? I want a man to ache FOR ME, just as I ache for HIM. I am not seeing that happening anytime soon tho, lol.



I love this song, might explain the way I feel and things I do at times:

When you love someone - you'll do anything
you'll do all the crazy things that you can't explain
you'll shoot the moon - put out the sun
when you love someone

you'll deny the truth - believe a lie
there'll be times that you'll believe you can really fly
but your lonely nights - have just begun
when you love someone

when you love someone - you'll feel it deep inside
and nothin else can ever change your mind
when you want someone - when you need someone
when you need someone...

when you love someone - you'll sacrifice
you'd give it everything you got and you won't think twice
you'd risk it all - no matter what may come
when you love someone
you'll shoot the moon - put out the sun
when you love someone



"The hardest part of being in a relationship is having the feeling that the guy you love more than life itself doesn't care about you as much as you thought. You sit up every night and cry, worrying that it won't last much longer. Yet, you're doing everything you can to hold on to what you have and yet it doesn’t seem to be enough.

It's agony. Complete, excruciating agony. It's like your heart is being ripped out of your chest and stomped on. You can't breathe, you don't want to eat, you can't function. It's the most intense pain you'll ever feel, and the worst part is there's no way to relieve it. It's unyielding, merciless torture. And you know it's yours for life."

*lost in thoughts about my man.... ~sigh~*

 

[intothewoods]

Bunny, great thread. I can relate very much.

I've seen it said on these boards before - you can't choose who you love. Well, yes and no. Again I'd like to recommend the book Getting the Love You Want, by Harville Hendrix. Cheesy title - and it's not a self help book. It's all about learning why you choose the partnes you do. It will flip your shit, seriously.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't know if this goes with the theme of the thread or not..but I had some thoughts floating around inside my head. I claim the title submissive. I've never really thought of myself as a slave..but here lately after talking to several people and putting my thoughts and feelings out there. I am a submissive..but with someone I care about very deeply I have the mindset of a slave. I still have the right to my hard limits and my safeword..but I'll be damned if I'll use them. If said person I care about deeply asks something of me..hard limit or not I'm going to try my hardest to do it. My desire to please overcomes my limits.. For example I may think that I'm at my limit during pain play, but if I know he needs to continue. I won't safeword. I want to please. I want him to feel the emotions he needs to feel.

I suppose the reason I've always resisted the title slave because of when I see situations where the slave has a broken leg and the Master says I don't give a shit..you're still going to do all of your chores. My mind screams at that. I don't get it. But after a discussion today I was told.. A Master has an obligation to take care of his slave. When he cares deeply about her he will make sure his property is well taken care of. Could he order her to do things when she is ill or hurt? Sure he has that right. But would a good Master? No, he would want his property to be in the best shape possible. Emotionally and physically. So would I push hard limits..maybe... but only knowing that it wasn't going to be emotionally or physically damaging to her. Made a bit more sense to me said that way.

For the right person..someone I care very deeply about..then yes I have the mindset of a slave. I choose to remain with the title submissive though.

Some people get a sort of calm and grounding satisfaction out of the type of service that makes a partner's life, or the relationship itself, run smoothly. This is the type of person who takes comfort in receiving directions and following through to the best of his/her ability.

On the flip side of the coin, some people get a calm and grounding satisfaction out of giving directions that are complied with, sans fuss.

I am the latter type of person, and seek out the former for any sustainable relationship. Why? Because I know that the euphoria of passionate new love (which generates the "god, I'd do anything to please this person" mindset in most human beings, regardless of sexual preference or lifestyle choice) is fleeting. No relationship sustains those euphoric highs over the longer course. And what happens in the drier or more bumpy spots will depend in large part on the proclivities of the participants in non-euphoric mode.

As for the question of what to do if one partner becomes ill, unusually stressed, or hurt, what works best for me is to maintain the fundamental dynamic as much as possible. Obviously I'm not going to insist that she keep doing my laundry if she has to roll in agony on the floor, exacerbating injuries on the way to the machine. But in many less severe situations, maintaining the status quo may in fact be helpful, or exactly what she needs.

 

[nh23]

Some people get a sort of calm and grounding satisfaction out of the type of service that makes a partner's life, or the relationship itself, run smoothly. This is the type of person who takes comfort in receiving directions and following through to the best of his/her ability.

On the flip side of the coin, some people get a calm and grounding satisfaction out of giving directions that are complied with, sans fuss.

I am the latter type of person, and seek out the former for any sustainable relationship. Why? Because I know that the euphoria of passionate new love (which generates the "god, I'd do anything to please this person" mindset in most human beings, regardless of sexual preference or lifestyle choice) is fleeting. No relationship sustains those euphoric highs over the longer course. And what happens in the drier or more bumpy spots will depend in large part on the proclivities of the participants in non-euphoric mode.

As for the question of what to do if one partner becomes ill, unusually stressed, or hurt, what works best for me is to maintain the fundamental dynamic as much as possible. Obviously I'm not going to insist that she keep doing my laundry if she has to roll in agony on the floor, exacerbating injuries on the way to the machine. But in many less severe situations, maintaining the status quo may in fact be helpful, or exactly what she needs.

I can dig that.

 

[intothewoods]

Some people get a sort of calm and grounding satisfaction out of the type of service that makes a partner's life, or the relationship itself, run smoothly. This is the type of person who takes comfort in receiving directions and following through to the best of his/her ability.

On the flip side of the coin, some people get a calm and grounding satisfaction out of giving directions that are complied with, sans fuss.

I am the latter type of person, and seek out the former for any sustainable relationship. Why? Because I know that the euphoria of passionate new love (which generates the "god, I'd do anything to please this person" mindset in most human beings, regardless of sexual preference or lifestyle choice) is fleeting. No relationship sustains those euphoric highs over the longer course. And what happens in the drier or more bumpy spots will depend in large part on the proclivities of the participants in non-euphoric mode.
As for the question of what to do if one partner becomes ill, unusually stressed, or hurt, what works best for me is to maintain the fundamental dynamic as much as possible. Obviously I'm not going to insist that she keep doing my laundry if she has to roll in agony on the floor, exacerbating injuries on the way to the machine. But in many less severe situations, maintaining the status quo may in fact be helpful, or exactly what she needs.

I'm completely on a post-therapy high right now, but I read this and wanted to jump up and down and say, ooh ooh, yes yes! I mean, in a non-sexual way, to the pervs reading this (in other words, all of you ).

First of all, I always feel like it's a big anti-romantic bummer to say certain things about love around these parts. For example, the bolded part of your post. There are certain chemical things that happen in our body when we fall in love. It doesn't mean it's not special, or the person isn't special, but it isn't sustainable forever. And the alternative is not some sort of loveless relationship either. It's just different. Anyway, I just see some kind of unrealistic things posted around here, and it drives me batty.

Again, I really recommend the book I posted about because the author (a well- respected and serious psychologist in his field) explains what happens in a relationship so that you can become conscious of it and make good choices so that when the initial euphoria passes, you have chosen a partner with whom you can grow. I wish I had this book before I got married. Not because I chose so poorly, but because I would have had had some sort of idea of what to do when things went bad. Because sometimes you can pick the best partner to your late twenty something self, and then have it all go to hell with a difficult pregnancy. Sounds funny to write, but it's true. I was angry at my ex for a long time, and probably still am to some degree, but frankly, feeling like you could lose your wife and child is probably not conducive to being at your best as a husband. It certainly wasn't conducive to being at your best as a wife.

Ahem. That was a bit of a tangent. My point was you can't choose who you love, but you will look at partners and relationships differently the more you know, and I think you do make different choices once you have that awareness.