Antecedent Hell!

[Striknine]

Hi to everyone! This is my first post ever (I think) and apologies if it's annoying, but burning questions about noun-pronoun agreement are haunting me. And so -


Keeping the references clear in a simple sentence is no problem –

Lisa looked down at her shoes and wondered if they were too flashy for such a formal dinner.

What confuses me is a sentence like this –

Lisa looked at the woman next to her, and wondered if her own skirt was too short.

It's the phrase 'her own skirt' that makes me wonder. Doesn't 'her own' make it clear who is being referred to?

The following might not even be a sentence as much as two fragments, but –

Lisa glanced at the woman, her jacket's garish pattern an eyesore.

Is 'her' ambiguous ?

What really throws me is whether references carry from one sentence to another in paragraphs –

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, she couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

(Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at the woman, Lisa couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.)

Is the meaning in the first paragraph confused, or does case make it sensible?

Okay, I'll stop with the examples 'fore any good-will is gone before its gotten and
a big Thanks to any who respond!

 

[carsonshepherd]

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, she couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

(Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at the woman, Lisa couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.)

Hi. Welcome to the AH.

Why is it necessary for Lisa to both glance at the woman and look at her in the very next sentence?

 

[Omerikon]

I always think it's best to solve these problems with a simple carpet-bombing and rebuilding process.

Lisa glanced at the woman, her jacket's garish pattern an eyesore.

"Lisa glanced at the woman wearing the garish jacket."

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, she couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

(Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at the woman, Lisa couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.)

"Lisa glanced at the woman's hat, realizing she'd forgotten her own."

These are just examples and can obviously be improved by integrating the surrounding text (that is, never use "glanced" twice unless there's more than a page between them). Just spread enough Agent Orange around those tangled sentences and go with the least-deformed result.

 

[Stella_Omega]

ooh, this is fun! I find the best way to deal with these conundrums is to completely re-write the sentence.

Lisa glanced at the woman, her jacket's garish pattern an eyesore.

The woman next to her was wearing a garish jacket.

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, she couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

A second look reminded her that a hat was mandatory. Studying her neighbour's frothy confection, Lisa marvelled at how forgetful she'd become.

(Lisa is having a bad wardrobe day, huh?)

 

[BlackShanglan]

Hi. Welcome to the AH.

Why is it necessary for Lisa to both glance at the woman and look at her in the very next sentence?

Have I mentioned lately that I love you?

Striknine, I couldn't resist a title about grammar! *laugh* Let's untangle this little coil ...

What confuses me is a sentence like this –

Lisa looked at the woman next to her, and wondered if her own skirt was too short.

It's the phrase 'her own skirt' that makes me wonder. Doesn't 'her own' make it clear who is being referred to?

I believe that it is clear, precisely because you added the word "own." Otherwise, we wouldn't know to which female person "her" referred.

There are other interesting issues in the sentence. Typically one would not use a comma before a coordinating conjunction that does not join two complete sentences (here, "and"), but one will sometimes (usually in older writing) see it used in just this sort of case, where the reader is urged to pause and give careful attention to who is doing what.

Another way to handle it would be to fine-tune the conjunction or swap it out for another method of joining sentences that helps to more precisely relate the thoughts. For instance, using "then" instead of "and" would helps the reader to see that the act of looking at the woman and the act of thinking about her own skirt are seperate actions with seperate people as their focal points.

The following might not even be a sentence as much as two fragments, but –

Lisa glanced at the woman, her jacket's garish pattern an eyesore.

Is 'her' ambiguous ?

Yes. Typically, that latter construction would refer back to "Lisa" with the pronoun. And no, there's no simple way to avoid a certain amount of pronoun / full noun awkwardness when swapping back and forth between two people of the same gender. It's a real nuisance when writing a gay love scene, even more so if one or both of the characters lacks a name.

What really throws me is whether references carry from one sentence to another in paragraphs –

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, she couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

(Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at the woman, Lisa couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.)

Is the meaning in the first paragraph confused, or does case make it sensible?

Typically, the pronoun-antecedent relationship is clear until someone or something intercedes that could also be the antecedent of the next pronoun. I can work out what you're saying in the first paragraph, but it does require me to slow down a bit and double-check. While "her" is clear, the "she" uses that follow give pause because they now have two people who could be their antecedents.

When you can, the best solution is often to trim down the number of pronouns being used; if you cut "looking at her" out of the second sentence, I think you'd have a more clear passage. If not, you can re-establish the antecedent:

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, Lisa couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's a real nuisance when writing a gay love scene, even more so if one or both of the characters lacks a name.

Or when they're both named Jack...

 

[BlackShanglan]

Or when they're both named Jack...

Oh, that's just hell and a half. Which of the various captains is it? *laugh*

 

[TE999]

My turn.

'Lisa looked at the woman beside her, wondering if her own skirt was too short in comparison.'

'Lisa glanced at the woman, then remembered wearing a hat was mandatory. She couldn't believe how forgetful she was.'

Tinkering around with the words and cases imprives the clarity a tad.

Also --saying the sentence out loud and seeing how it falls on the ear is helpful.

Welcome to the AH, btw.

 

[Striknine]

Thanks for the replies everyone, they have been helpful!

Hi. Welcome to the AH.

Why is it necessary for Lisa to both glance at the woman and look at her in the very next sentence?

Ummm, stylistic emphasis? (yeah, it's a poor excuse)

ooh, this is fun! I find the best way to deal with these conundrums is to completely re-write the sentence.The woman next to her was wearing a garish jacket.A second look reminded her that a hat was mandatory. Studying her neighbour's frothy confection, Lisa marvelled at how forgetful she'd become.

(Lisa is having a bad wardrobe day, huh?)

The re-writes do work, but they're not as stylish, darnit! Back to the drawing board...

Have I mentioned lately that I love you?

Striknine, I couldn't resist a title about grammar! *laugh* Let's untangle this little coil ...



I believe that it is clear, precisely because you added the word "own." Otherwise, we wouldn't know to which female person "her" referred.

It seems clear, but then it also seems that "her" could also reference the woman - as if Lisa is wondering about the woman's own skirt. Maybe context makes for clarity?

When you can, the best solution is often to trim down the number of pronouns being used; if you cut "looking at her" out of the second sentence, I think you'd have a more clear passage. If not, you can re-establish the antecedent:

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, Lisa couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

That is better, thanks!

 

[carsonshepherd]

. Maybe context makes for clarity?

Yeah. A lot of times it does. Readers usually know the conventions, and if you follow them, they know what you're talking about (see what I did there?)

That's the thing with gay love scenes and all the "he" and "his". If you're not too self-conscious about it, the reader won't notice it it all. I concentrate less on "style" and more on flow.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Hi to everyone! This is my first post ever (I think) and apologies if it's annoying, but burning questions about noun-pronoun agreement are haunting me. And so -


Keeping the references clear in a simple sentence is no problem –

Lisa looked down at her shoes and wondered if they were too flashy for such a formal dinner.

What confuses me is a sentence like this –

Lisa looked at the woman next to her, and wondered if her own skirt was too short.

It's the phrase 'her own skirt' that makes me wonder. Doesn't 'her own' make it clear who is being referred to?

The following might not even be a sentence as much as two fragments, but –

Lisa glanced at the woman, her jacket's garish pattern an eyesore.

Is 'her' ambiguous ?

What really throws me is whether references carry from one sentence to another in paragraphs –

Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered that wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at her, she couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.

(Lisa glanced at the woman and remembered wearing a hat was mandatory. Looking at the woman, Lisa couldn't believe how forgetful she had become.)

Is the meaning in the first paragraph confused, or does case make it sensible?

Okay, I'll stop with the examples 'fore any good-will is gone before its gotten and
a big Thanks to any who respond!

Hi, Striknine, and welcome to the AH.

In the first example, you need "own" or the reader will think Lisa was wondering about the other woman's skirt. This is a simple sentence with a compound subject.

In the second example, you can drop the participial phrase and start the second sentence with "She". You don't need to have Lisa glance AND look.

In the third example, it depends on what you are saying. It could be: Lisa glanced at the woman. Her jacket's garish pattern was an eyesore. Or maybe: Lisa glanced at the woman whose jacket's garish pattern was an eyesore. I would prefer: Lisa glanced at the woman whose jacket's pattern was a garish eyesore. One way, there are only Lisa and the woman in an ugly jacket. In the other, there is a group of people besides Lisa, and one of them has a garish jacket.

 

[impressive]

You're in good hands with the grammar advisors. I just wanted to say hello & welcome.

 

[maggot420]

That has got to be the best first post ever.
Charley is gonna love you.

Welcome to the AH.

 

[glynndah]

A welcome for the little newbie from the good little witch.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Good little witch sighting!

 

[glynndah]

Good little witch sighting!

I'm often here floating around. You just need to remember to look up once in a while.

 

[Striknine]

Thanks again for the responses everyone and thank you for the warm welcomes!!

Hi, Striknine, and welcome to the AH.


In the third example, it depends on what you are saying. ... I would prefer: Lisa glanced at the woman whose jacket's pattern was a garish eyesore.

Okay, I can see adding a possesive pronoun(?) works.

In the second example, you can drop the participial phrase and start the second sentence with "She". You don't need to have Lisa glance AND look.

I know dropping 'Looking at her' still leaves the sentence meaningful, but can't the participal be used for emphasis? Or is there a risk of some confusion in doing this?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Thanks again for the responses everyone and thank you for the warm welcomes!!



Okay, I can see adding a possesive pronoun(?) works.



I know dropping 'Looking at her' still leaves the sentence meaningful, but can't the participal be used for emphasis? Or is there a risk of some confusion in doing this?

A glance is a very brief, probably less than a second, and maybe accidental. Looking at the woman, after glancing at her, is a separate act, and should probably be set out, such as "Looking at her again..." or "Looking more closely.." to let the reader know Lisa has done a double-take.