Story Discussion: Jan 18, 2008. " The Darkness Beyond " by fieryjen

[fieryjen]

I'm offering the first two chapters from this story for discussion.

It takes me a long time to write longer pieces, so even though this only went up recently, these first two chapters are at least two years old. I started on them with no idea where the story would go.

The main reason why I'm offering this up for discussion is that I'm contemplating writing a sequel. It feels to me like I'm not through with the main characters just yet, like their journey just isn't at an end. But before I do that, I'd like to know more about the story. I'd like to know whether or not I succeeded in what I set out to do.

Note: Like every author, I hope that these first two chapters will make you want to read more. If that's the case, feel free to do so. There is a link to my stories in my signature.

 

[fieryjen]

Chapter 1

Chapter 2

 

[fieryjen]

As in some other discussions I've read, I don't want to say too much before the discussion has gotten started. I don't want to take away from the first impressions. But here are a few things to look for, if you don't mind.

First off, did it make you want to keep reading past Chapter 1? Past Chapter 2?

I'm also very interested in your reactions to the two main characters. How do they come across so far, and how do you like the way they're introduced?

Finally, there's the vampire group. You might have noticed that they are a bit on the unusual side - they have some of the traditional vampire characteristics, but there are also some major differences. Did I succeed in introducing that clearly, or might the reader be confused because they are not traditional vampires? Also, how do you feel about the entire group in Chapter 2, in terms of their interactions and dynamic?


I hope I expressed myself clearly enough. Let me just say up front that I really appreciate the opportunity to do this. Thanks

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Urk, vampires. I'll come straight out with it and say I'm heavily biased against vamp stories after watching my favourite horror genre slowly mutate into the derivative vamp fiction genre (curse you Anne Rice!)

I liked the first section though. Most stories from the vamp perspective get all puffed up with how much more powerful the vamps are and how feeble and useless the workings of the mundane human world is. You punctured that nicely when the seemingly throwaway first victim got in a lucky strike with a knife and we found out she was actually going to be one of the main characters.

I liked that she wasn't special either and it was just a piece of luck. The all-powerful vampire, brought down to earth with a bang by a freak stab. It was a nice touch.

I'm also very interested in your reactions to the two main characters. How do they come across so far, and how do you like the way they're introduced?

I liked Hannah. She didn't allow herself to go quietly as a fast food snack at the start and was perfectly prepared to fight back. You also managed to avoid revealing her as one of these 'perfect' heroines that are so smart, athletic and resourceful they cease to resemble real human beings. She seemed normal enough to be credible. I would have liked to have seen more background on her to flesh out a bit more though.

Sorry, but I really loathed Cian. I'm guessing we're supposed to loathe him as a callous killer to start with, but it was also obvious that he was going to end up being the 'bad boy' romantic interest at the end and that stereotype really winds me up. I suspects that's more to do with me (nice guy) just being bitter (forever finishing last)

I'm guessing some conventions are unavoidable. Hannah and Cian are going to end up liking each other, which means some gloss is going to be applied over the nastier aspects of his character. I don't know if there is any way of getting around this as the other alternatives (one of them killing the other) will probably give an even less satisfying ending.

To me he felt a little like that 'bad boy but obviously going to get the girl' stereotype, but I couldn't see any other way how he could be done. You could have gone with the angsty "I have to eat people to live and it tears me up" type of vampire, but that's just replacing one stereotype with another.

Finally, there's the vampire group. You might have noticed that they are a bit on the unusual side - they have some of the traditional vampire characteristics, but there are also some major differences. Did I succeed in introducing that clearly, or might the reader be confused because they are not traditional vampires? Also, how do you feel about the entire group in Chapter 2, in terms of their interactions and dynamic?

The biggest problem with vampire stories is that it's virtually impossible to be on the unusual side. There are so many iterations and variations of the trope that have been written since Dracula it's hard to find any ground to be creative.

The group dropped neatly into the vampires as a different species slot rather than the vampirism as a disease slot. (the essence stuff was nicely explained though.)

In the group there were also the familiar archetypes as the matriach/patriarch, the pretty boy upstart, the mad one, the sexy one. But can this be avoided? I don't know.

More history or background on the group would have been nice. I didn't really get a sense of how they existed in this world.

I hope I haven't come across as too hard. I normally roll my eyes and run a mile at the first mention of the 'V' word. I'm a little jaded though, as you might have noticed. Put me in the 'tough crowd' category.

On the discussion side of things do people think there's any wriggle room left in the vampire myth? I like writing horror, but I've never done a conventional vampire story because it seems like there's so much expectation and familiarity it's like trying to write in a straight-jacket. There's no point in trying to avoid walking through the stereotypes because the people who'd appreciate that have already run off at the first mention of the 'V' word and the only one's left reading are there exactly because they love and want those stereotypes.

First off, did it make you want to keep reading past Chapter 1? Past Chapter 2?

Despite the gripes I actually did and went all the way to the end

The style and pacing was just right for this type of tale (and you kept putting those dang cliffhangers at the end of each chapter).

I liked the initial scene and first chapter, but the second chapter nearly kicked me out. The portal appearing was a little too jarring. Maybe it needs some foreshadowing with the mystery person (later revealed as Noor) watching events and taking action. I feel i might have just blundered straight through the 'mystery force watching through a scrying glass' cliche though.

I was a lot more interested once they went through the portal and I liked the detective aspect of the story. I think there's potential to expand the background on the other dimension and give the story a richer feel.

Thanks for sharing the story. I hope I offered something constructive despite getting side-tracked into a general rant against vamp stories somewhere along the way

Many-Eyed Hydra

 

[fieryjen]

Urk, vampires. I'll come straight out with it and say I'm heavily biased against vamp stories after watching my favourite horror genre slowly mutate into the derivative vamp fiction genre (curse you Anne Rice!)

First off, thanks for taking the time to reply, and thanks for reading despite the fcat that you're not into this kind of stories.

I liked the first section though. Most stories from the vamp perspective get all puffed up with how much more powerful the vamps are and how feeble and useless the workings of the mundane human world is. You punctured that nicely when the seemingly throwaway first victim got in a lucky strike with a knife and we found out she was actually going to be one of the main characters.

I liked that she wasn't special either and it was just a piece of luck. The all-powerful vampire, brought down to earth with a bang by a freak stab. It was a nice touch.



I liked Hannah. She didn't allow herself to go quietly as a fast food snack at the start and was perfectly prepared to fight back. You also managed to avoid revealing her as one of these 'perfect' heroines that are so smart, athletic and resourceful they cease to resemble real human beings. She seemed normal enough to be credible. I would have liked to have seen more background on her to flesh out a bit more though.

I'm glad to hear that, because that was my goal with Hannah. I don't like cliched writing, and I try to stay away from it, or at least to surprise the reader once in a while. Did the bit of background given throughout the rest of the story satisfy, or is there still a lot more that you'd like to know?

Sorry, but I really loathed Cian. I'm guessing we're supposed to loathe him as a callous killer to start with, but it was also obvious that he was going to end up being the 'bad boy' romantic interest at the end and that stereotype really winds me up. I suspects that's more to do with me (nice guy) just being bitter (forever finishing last)

I'm guessing some conventions are unavoidable. Hannah and Cian are going to end up liking each other, which means some gloss is going to be applied over the nastier aspects of his character. I don't know if there is any way of getting around this as the other alternatives (one of them killing the other) will probably give an even less satisfying ending.

To me he felt a little like that 'bad boy but obviously going to get the girl' stereotype, but I couldn't see any other way how he could be done. You could have gone with the angsty "I have to eat people to live and it tears me up" type of vampire, but that's just replacing one stereotype with another.

Since you finished reading the story, may I ask how you eventually felt about the way I had it happen?

This is actually also the reason why I felt like I wasn't quite done with the characters yet. There are so many interactions that I just couldn't fit into the story the way it progressed.

I loved writing Cian at the beginning. I had a lot of fun with the character, but I agree, he mellows out a bit too fast throughout the story. That has always bothered me. The fact that Hannah loves him doesn't mean she is completely blind to all his faults, but there was never a good opportunity to show this in the story. And the fact that he loves her doesn't mean he's going to turn around and become a good guy just like that.

If I do write the sequel, I was planning on having them spend several years away from each other - fleshing out their characters a bit more while they're unhindered by each other's presence.

The biggest problem with vampire stories is that it's virtually impossible to be on the unusual side. There are so many iterations and variations of the trope that have been written since Dracula it's hard to find any ground to be creative.

The group dropped neatly into the vampires as a different species slot rather than the vampirism as a disease slot. (the essence stuff was nicely explained though.)

In the group there were also the familiar archetypes as the matriach/patriarch, the pretty boy upstart, the mad one, the sexy one. But can this be avoided? I don't know.

More history or background on the group would have been nice. I didn't really get a sense of how they existed in this world.

Thanks for that as well. I'll keep that in mind if I do write another group into the sequel. I'm glad that the mechanics of the Essences didn't seem to be a stumbling point - I didn't want to spend time with clunky exposition, yet I wanted to get across how vampires "worked" in the story. If I didn't confuse you, I'm happy about it.

I hope I haven't come across as too hard. I normally roll my eyes and run a mile at the first mention of the 'V' word. I'm a little jaded though, as you might have noticed. Put me in the 'tough crowd' category.

On the discussion side of things do people think there's any wriggle room left in the vampire myth? I like writing horror, but I've never done a conventional vampire story because it seems like there's so much expectation and familiarity it's like trying to write in a straight-jacket. There's no point in trying to avoid walking through the stereotypes because the people who'd appreciate that have already run off at the first mention of the 'V' word and the only one's left reading are there exactly because they love and want those stereotypes.




Despite the gripes I actually did and went all the way to the end

The style and pacing was just right for this type of tale (and you kept putting those dang cliffhangers at the end of each chapter).

I liked the initial scene and first chapter, but the second chapter nearly kicked me out. The portal appearing was a little too jarring. Maybe it needs some foreshadowing with the mystery person (later revealed as Noor) watching events and taking action. I feel i might have just blundered straight through the 'mystery force watching through a scrying glass' cliche though.

I was a lot more interested once they went through the portal and I liked the detective aspect of the story. I think there's potential to expand the background on the other dimension and give the story a richer feel.

Thanks for sharing the story. I hope I offered something constructive despite getting side-tracked into a general rant against vamp stories somewhere along the way

Many-Eyed Hydra

Thank you, I did find it very helpful. You've given me plenty to think about and improve upon, too.

I honestly just tried not to worry about the genre in general, and I didn't write a vampire story with the goal to defy all the cliches. It just sort of happened. At the beginning, I wasn't even going to make them vampires - just "demons" - but my editor pointed out that there weren't enough difference to get away with it.

Random note about the cliffhangers: I noticed halfway through that, almost as an unintentional running gag, I had at least one of the characters fall asleep or pass out at the end of almost every chapter.

So...about Noor and the portal. I'm trying to understand what you were saying here. When the portal appeared, was it jarring to you because it was an aspect of the story that remained unexplained for so long? Do you mean that I should have hinted that there might be someone watching out for Hannah at this particular point? I'd appreciate it if you could clear that up.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Fiery,

Let me just say up front that I really appreciate the opportunity to do this. Thanks.

Thanks bunches for volunteering your story. We appreciate you sharing it with us.

First off, did it make you want to keep reading past Chapter 1? Past Chapter 2?

While I was curious, I didn't keep reading because I wasn't quite *that* interested because I thought I knew where the basic story was going.

This is the line where my interest waned: She was shocked when the first thought on her mind turned out to be that he was good-looking... Ok, more like my interest plummeted. I devoured stories like this in my late teens and early twenties, but the whole 'beauty tames the savage beast' theme is passe with me by now. I want more than a good-looking partner, both in real life and in fiction. And I want Hannah to want more too, even if her brief liaison with Briar shows us that may be exactly what she wants.

I'm also very interested in your reactions to the two main characters. How do they come across so far, and how do you like the way they're introduced?

I liked Hannah and maybe that's because she's the kind of girl we all wanted to be at her age- attractive, fiery, intelligent, and brave enough not to wet herself at the first sign of trouble. Cian is defined well enough, but he's class-A scum. I'm not sure if you really wanted to make him such a callous, imbecilic, undead monster. While good fiction is all about characters changing, after learning Cian killed two women on the way to finding Hannah, I'm going to have a hard time believe he can change.

If you meant for Cian to always be the villain and the story isn't going where I think it is, then great job fooling me, but not so great job keeping my interest up. Tell me I'm wrong and that Hannah doesn't have a liaison with Cian, and I'd start reading chapter three at once.

Finally, there's the vampire group. You might have noticed that they are a bit on the unusual side - they have some of the traditional vampire characteristics, but there are also some major differences. Did I succeed in introducing that clearly, or might the reader be confused because they are not traditional vampires? Also, how do you feel about the entire group in Chapter 2, in terms of their interactions and dynamic?

That second scene, where the group is first introduced, was a real let down after a lively opening. It feels like one of those awkward "Ok, everybody introduce themselves" moments. In a literary sense, it's totally unnecessary since you're going to shift the perspective to Hannah soon enough and we can get to know the group when she does. I also think you may have fallen victim to the allure of writing too much- telling us how they felt and why they behaved the way they did, instead of just showing us their interaction and inviting us to figure it out. This may be an issue in places other than the second scene, but that's where I really noticed it. I truly enjoyed that you chose to deviate from traditional vampire lore. This was one of the best aspects of the tale.

Great questions!

Vampires usually bore me because they're so powerful. Your opening scene is excellent, especially when your heroine kills a vampire with a knife instead of a wooden stake- it really made me believe this story might be different. Later though, I decided the basic plot might not be so different after all. It's a well-written*** tale with some intriguing facets, but I can't get past the nauseating thought of Hannah having a relationship with Cian.

Take Care,
Penny

*** After a few days discussion and thought, I realized this isn't quite true. See also post #17.

 

[Verdad]

Hi, Jen,

A greeting and a few words from me, prefaced by a warning about my personal tastes:

I have so little liking for vampire tales it would take something like a miracle to grab my interest. I hope you can keep that in mind as you read; no reader or critic can leave their preferences entirely aside, and everything I say here should be seen as influenced by mine.

In the light of my bias against vampires, it comes as no surprise I wasn't tempted to read past the opening chapters, but since I did read the first two, I can share an impression or two, for whatever they might be worth.

Your story starts at the right point in time, which would sound like stating the obvious if that point weren't so often missed. Good job on that, and good job on the general conception of the first two chapters. A number of characters had to be introduced while immediately presenting the reader with a problem, and you've done well in approaching both tasks simultaneously and dynamically.

The same goes for the way you laid foundations of your fictional world, with one exception being the dialogue between Cian and Hannah. That he hurried to inform his victim-to-be about the secrets of his species sounded contrived to me, and as if you'd tipped your hand off too soon. A big part of reading pleasure in this kind of piece comes from deciphering the underlying principles of the world, so I believe there was no need to spell them out so soon and with such precision. Instead, the dialogue could have been better employed for some character interplay, or so I thought.

In general, the way you began unraveling the story is probably one of its strongest points, with problems and introductions doled out at just the right pace to keep the reader turning the pages. As far as stirring curiosity goes, I think you've done well enough to safely pull in a reader, as long as their interest in the genre is a bit bigger than mine.

Still, while I didn't have a problem with the big picture, I did notice a number of glitches in writing, and most importantly, I found the main characters—no other way to say this—supremely irritating.

The technical glitches that stuck in my mind the most were numerous repetitions of Cian's name in the opening scene, as well as some later repetitions of words or phrases in a too close proximity—e.g. "by no means" twice in a same para, Cian rolling his eyes twice in a course of a few para's, etc.

The latter would be more than easy to eliminate, but the number of times you mentioned Cian in the opening seems worth mentioning because it looks like a sign of insecurity in tying the POV to him. You might find it a useful piece of general advice to excise most mentions of the POV character and notice it's still clear to the reader we're staying in his point of view, as long as there's an occasional reminder. "The girl was close now" is better than "Cian could see that the girl was close now" the majority of time.

As for main characters… I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable being so blunt, and I remind you again to read it with an understanding of its being only one reader's opinion, but I couldn't find anything remotely likeable about either of the two.

Cian appeared to me like a stereotypical bad boy vampire in the opening scene, and that wasn't so bad—yet. He didn't exactly earn my sympathy by chuckling over his friend's death, but neither was I put off. I was willing to accept him as a type, withhold the judgment about his somewhat unnatural reactions for later, and read further out of curiosity for the developments. A character doesn't have to be a nice person or have positive traits to be alluring, and so I was willing to give him a chance.

However, somewhere around the first eye rolling and onward, he grew more and more annoying to me, crossing over from a-not-so-good-guy-who-could-still-be-a-decent-character to a decidedly bad character. His body language, his thoughts, the way he speaks—they all come across as empty, juvenile, and irritating. Even if your goal for him is to create a character of dubious appeal, the appealing part, for me, just isn't there.

Unfortunately, my impression of Hannah wasn't any better, and I have to confess I began skimming after a few para's into her point of view. The logic of the story kinda dictates that at least she be the sympathetic one, but I found her suffering from the same flaws as in Cian's presentation. Everything about her struck me as shallow, unconvincing, badass in a theatrical way—almost as if you'd based both of them on B-movies, rather than really going there and trying to imbue them with some genuine emotion. I'm not sure how you intended either of them to come across, but it'll take, in my opinion, some additional, well-thought-out effort to make them minimally engaging.

Your last question regards the rest of the characters, and here I can only say I found the introductions handled rather smoothly and unobtrusively, which is always nice to see with such a large group. Whether they differ from typical vampires, I'm not equipped to judge, but to my lay perceptions, they looked like a fairly standard crew.

I hope I haven't scared you off and that some more vampire-friendly readers show up soon.

Best of luck,

Verdad

 

[fieryjen]

It's interesting how many differences there seem to be in the three posted opinions so far. Wow. I appreciate them all, and I'll take the time to answer to each of them separately - just wanted to make that one comment, since it really stood out to me.

 

[Penelope Street]

... I really loathed Cian. I'm guessing we're supposed to loathe him as a callous killer to start with, but it was also obvious that he was going to end up being the 'bad boy' romantic interest at the end and that stereotype really winds me up. I suspects that's more to do with me (nice guy) just being bitter (forever finishing last)

Before I frequented this website, I would not have guessed the undercurrent of resentment that seems to run through 'nice guys' regarding this issue. I suppose it's essentially similar to how I once felt toward pretty girls and all the crap they could get away with.

What's missing with Cian, at least for me, is that confidence most 'bad boys' have- which is what makes them attractive, and him not so. If, for instance, he had chosen to attack Hannah at once, only to have second thoughts after she managed to shoot him, that might have worked better. Of course, there can be a fine line between confidence and arrogance- and the latter is so not sexy!

I think it also would have helped simply not telling the reader about the two murders Cian commits on the way to finding Hannah. He's plenty repulsive before that, what's the point of confirming that he's totally evil?

I'm guessing some conventions are unavoidable. Hannah and Cian are going to end up liking each other, which means some gloss is going to be applied over the nastier aspects of his character. I don't know if there is any way of getting around this as the other alternatives (one of them killing the other) will probably give an even less satisfying ending.

That was my guessing too, except I'd be satisfied if she killed him. Even if he killed her, that would at least be different.

More history or background on the group would have been nice. I didn't really get a sense of how they existed in this world.

Really? I wanted less history and more mystery!

I was a lot more interested once they went through the portal and I liked the detective aspect of the story. I think there's potential to expand the background on the other dimension and give the story a richer feel.

I didn't get this far, and now I'm kinda regretting it- but they do have a relationship, don't they?

And the fact that [Cian] loves [Hannah] doesn't mean he's going to turn around and become a good guy just like that.

Good. I'm not one who believes people ever change *that* much, and especially not for the better- though reality doesn't always make for the most alluring tale.

I didn't write a vampire story with the goal to defy all the cliches.

Too funny- the story I was going to volunteer for discussion before you agreed to share yours is a vampire tale that I wrote with the express goal of defying cliches!

"The girl was close now" is better than "Cian could see that the girl was close now" the majority of time.

Hmmm? I read once in a list of writing hints that the latter style was usually preferred. Or is it just that the technique is overused within the scene?

Everything about her struck me as shallow, unconvincing, badass in a theatrical way—almost as if you'd based both of them on B-movies, rather than really going there and trying to imbue them with some genuine emotion.

I agree she's shallow and that didn't invite me to identify with her- but we're all shallow to some extent, plus she's young and I'm not quite old enough to have forgotten what that was like. Maybe she has a little attitude, but I certainly didn't see her as a badass.

 

[fieryjen]

Hi Fiery,

Thanks bunches for volunteering your story. We appreciate you sharing it with us.

While I was curious, I didn't keep reading because I wasn't quite *that* interested because I thought I knew where the basic story was going.

This is the line where my interest waned: She was shocked when the first thought on her mind turned out to be that he was good-looking... Ok, more like my interest plummeted. I devoured stories like this in my late teens and early twenties, but the whole 'beauty tames the savage beast' theme is passe with me by now. I want more than a good-looking partner, both in real life and in fiction. And I want Hannah to want more too, even if her brief liaison with Briar shows us that may be exactly what she wants.

Ooh, ouch. That made me wince. You're right, of course, and now I feel embarrassed for ever having written that. I imagine Cian is fairly attractive-looking (just from the way I've formed the character in my mind), but I agree that this would likely not be popping into Hannah's head while her life is in danger. In fact, I think the developments later in the story would be much more effective if she didn't think of him in this way beforehand at all.

I liked Hannah and maybe that's because she's the kind of girl we all wanted to be at her age- attractive, fiery, intelligent, and brave enough not to wet herself at the first sign of trouble. Cian is defined well enough, but he's class-A scum. I'm not sure if you really wanted to make him such a callous, imbecilic, undead monster. While good fiction is all about characters changing, after learning Cian killed two women on the way to finding Hannah, I'm going to have a hard time believe he can change.

If you meant for Cian to always be the villain and the story isn't going where I think it is, then great job fooling me, but not so great job keeping my interest up. Tell me I'm wrong and that Hannah doesn't have a liaison with Cian, and I'd start reading chapter three at once.

Ah, sadly, that is in fact where the story is going. Though maybe it's not exactly as you predicted, since they don't fall in love by choice.

That second scene, where the group is first introduced, was a real let down after a lively opening. It feels like one of those awkward "Ok, everybody introduce themselves" moments. In a literary sense, it's totally unnecessary since you're going to shift the perspective to Hannah soon enough and we can get to know the group when she does. I also think you may have fallen victim to the allure of writing too much- telling us how they felt and why they behaved the way they did, instead of just showing us their interaction and inviting us to figure it out. This may be an issue in places other than the second scene, but that's where I really noticed it. I truly enjoyed that you chose to deviate from traditional vampire lore. This was one of the best aspects of the tale.

I'm very glad you feel that way about the non-traditional aspect of the vampires. Of course, I'm still pondering how to improve the introduction of the vampire group, since you have a great point here as well - it does feel a lot like "here comes Candidate Number One, this is what they're like" "and now there's Candidate Number Two, this is them"...

Do you think I could get away with introducing a few of them the way I have been (the ones that will end up having a more important role), and having some walk in as a group, leaving them anonymous until it switches back to Hannah's PoV?

Great questions!

Vampires usually bore me because they're so powerful. Your opening scene is excellent, especially when your heroine kills a vampire with a knife instead of a wooden stake- it really made me believe this story might be different. Later though, I decided the basic plot might not be so different after all. It's a well-written tale with some intriguing facets, but I can't get past the nauseating thought of Hannah having a relationship with Cian.

Take Care,
Penny

Alright - while I'll still try to keep the discussion on the first two chapters, I'm getting the feeling that it might be necessary to discuss the rest of it just a little bit too. I apologize if I'm giving away too much, but oh well. Here is what my basic idea for this story was:

Hannah and Cian are not the type to fall in love, and I agree that in a regular environment, it shouldn't happen. The world the portal takes them to is a twisted one - it changes people. I wanted this to be creepy. I purposely gave the example of Noor, who arrived in the other world a burn victim. She uses her vampiric powers to heal herself, however the corruption of the place causes her not to grow back her old skin, but a new, different one. She's quite a strange creature when Cian and Hannah encounter her. She also has bouts of confusion and craziness because the other dimension is warping her mind.

Hannah and Cian fall in love not because "it just happens" - but because the dimension they're in is messing with them, and changing them. I liked the basic idea of this, because it makes for an interesting dynamic - they actually don't want to be in love with each other, and they sort of hate the fact that they are.

However, I think I didn't bring this across too well. I got them to be too caring too fast, and I didn't bring enough internal conflict to the story. As I mentioned in the post before, they just sort of concentrated on figuring out the mystery, and Hannah didn't end up witnessing Cian commit another truly evil act, which would definitely have thrown her into turmoil. She'd be able to be in denial exactly until the moment that his evilness is thrown in her face again.

Same goes for Cian - he's still evil, but he'd be in agony over the fact that he's hurting Hannah by the way he's acting. Since they both realize that their feelings are, to some extent, artificial, they'd end up fighting them. Especially Cian should have been much more revolted about what is happening, because he dislikes not being in control. This is, I think, where the story is lacking the most. And I think that this is why I feel I'm not done with these two characters just yet. I really want to flesh this out more. I do think that this could be a really interesting dynamic if I write it right.

It's funny, because I never fully realized that I felt like this until now.

 

[Verdad]

Reading Penny and Hydra now, I almost wonder if we've read the same story. It appears I was an unsympathetic reader indeed.

Here's where I come closest to agreeing with Penny:

What's missing with Cian, at least for me, is that confidence most 'bad boys' have- which is what makes them attractive, and him not so. If, for instance, he had chosen to attack Hannah at once, only to have second thoughts after she managed to shoot him, that might have worked better.

Agreed. I noticed his hesitation in that scene as well, and perceived it as a bit wussy, but most of all, it was that body language thing I mentioned, that made him look more like a spoiled little boy than a 'bad boy' to me. I mean, do bad boys roll their eyes like capricious girls? Do they chuckle? Do they waste time nurturing petty antipathies, like Cian does for Adrian? And if they do, shouldn't they do so with either wicked humor or calculated cruelty, rather than with petty bitchiness? If I'm not misreading Jen's intentions for Cian's character entirely, Cian should be way too cool and well, way too 'bad', to express himself like that.

As for Hannah, I understand what Penny means when she applauds her for being tougher than the average damsel in distress, but should she be as tough as to show the finger while being attacked by a vampire or "smile wryly" when death-threatened by a whole group of them? Unless Hannah knows something we don't, there's tough as nails, but then there's not too bright, too. Maybe some of her tough reactions boil down to unfortunate word choices rather than omissions in how Jen conceived her character, but the end impression I got of Hannah was pretty much like I described above.

As for this:

Hmmm? I read once in a list of writing hints that the latter style was usually preferred. Or is it just that the technique is overused within the scene?

Thanks for pointing it out, Penny—I should have been clearer and said that I found the technique overused in the scene. To the extent I'd dare giving general advice, though (which is something I should have been more careful about, since it invariably backfires in the face of inevitable exceptions), I do prefer the protag mentions that have the sole purpose of reminding us the events come through his eyes kept to a bare minimum. I've read recommendations to that effect, too, just like you've read the opposite. (The 'inviolable' rules, eh?)

 

[manyeyedhydra]

So...about Noor and the portal. I'm trying to understand what you were saying here. When the portal appeared, was it jarring to you because it was an aspect of the story that remained unexplained for so long? Do you mean that I should have hinted that there might be someone watching out for Hannah at this particular point? I'd appreciate it if you could clear that up.

It's part of the problem with vamp stories that I think Verdad and Penelope also touched on. So many of them are basically crap I think anyone writing them has to work very hard to get past that initial low expectation.

I think you put hannah in a situation where it was obvious something drastic would have to happen to rescue her. Then the portal arrived and my first thought was WTF! Where is this going? Aliens? Alternate dimensions? It was too big of a lurch into a brand new mystery after already presenting the mystery of the vampires.

I think it might have been because I didn't get (or missed) a sense of any connection to the vamps with the portal when it first appeared.

I think you can get round this if you sneak in a hint earlier that the vamps come from another dimension. It's a bit of a spoiler though.

The other option is to have a little cutaway to Noor (I think this is also necessary for the final clash as well) . Then we'd get a clearer sense that Hannah's random stabbing to save herself had set a much larger sequence of events in motion.

Before I frequented this website, I would not have guessed the undercurrent of resentment that seems to run through 'nice guys' regarding this issue. I suppose it's essentially similar to how I once felt toward pretty girls and all the crap they could get away with.

I think that's probably spot on. But if Cian was really a good little vamp that filled out his tax reports on time and did his share of the housework then I imagine everyone reading would immediately think boooring! I can understand the power of a good fantasy figure, it's just those characters really make the red mist rise for me

I think it also would have helped simply not telling the reader about the two murders Cian commits on the way to finding Hannah. He's plenty repulsive before that, what's the point of confirming that he's totally evil?

This was a sticking point for me as well. He's a nasty piece of work and it's worse because we know at some point he's going to end up as the romantic interest.

I think this is where the straight-jacket of vamp stories comes in. The only way to make him more likable at the start is to give him a sense of regret or reluctance over his kills, but then you have the typical brooding angsty vamp and that's an even more tedious stereotype.

The two kills at the start did have a feeling of being glossed over. I did have a thought that it might be interesting to linger over them a little more. Show him as an unrepentant predator in all his glory so to speak.

Hannah and Cian fall in love not because "it just happens" - but because the dimension they're in is messing with them, and changing them. I liked the basic idea of this, because it makes for an interesting dynamic - they actually don't want to be in love with each other, and they sort of hate the fact that they are.

I'm moving off the first two chapters, but this was one aspect I felt was forced. It felt like you wanted to put the two together, but knew there was no real way this could happen given how you'd presented the characters.

I liked your later comments though. There's plenty of scope in playing the tension of their mutual loathing off of each other, especially if they are forced to cooperate together more to survive in the place they are transported to.

Many-Eyed Hydra

 

[fieryjen]

Hi, Jen,

A greeting and a few words from me, prefaced by a warning about my personal tastes:

I have so little liking for vampire tales it would take something like a miracle to grab my interest. I hope you can keep that in mind as you read; no reader or critic can leave their preferences entirely aside, and everything I say here should be seen as influenced by mine.

Perfectly fine. Thanks for adding your thoughts. Though I must admit, I never realized that there was such a bias against vampire tales. I know there are some badly written ones, but I didn't think the whole genre was so... despised by some readers.

In the light of my bias against vampires, it comes as no surprise I wasn't tempted to read past the opening chapters, but since I did read the first two, I can share an impression or two, for whatever they might be worth.

Your story starts at the right point in time, which would sound like stating the obvious if that point weren't so often missed. Good job on that, and good job on the general conception of the first two chapters. A number of characters had to be introduced while immediately presenting the reader with a problem, and you've done well in approaching both tasks simultaneously and dynamically.

So this is one thing everyone seems to agree on so far. I'm glad that the opening scene seems to have fulfilled its purpose, at least.

The same goes for the way you laid foundations of your fictional world, with one exception being the dialogue between Cian and Hannah. That he hurried to inform his victim-to-be about the secrets of his species sounded contrived to me, and as if you'd tipped your hand off too soon. A big part of reading pleasure in this kind of piece comes from deciphering the underlying principles of the world, so I believe there was no need to spell them out so soon and with such precision. Instead, the dialogue could have been better employed for some character interplay, or so I thought.

I do understand what you mean by that. My concern was that there was so much to be explained that the reader would just start feeling lost, so I put as much info into this one dialogue as I thought was necessary. But I'll pay more attention to the pacing of exposition info from now on.

What exactly do you mean by "character interplay"? Just making sure I understand this correctly.

In general, the way you began unraveling the story is probably one of its strongest points, with problems and introductions doled out at just the right pace to keep the reader turning the pages. As far as stirring curiosity goes, I think you've done well enough to safely pull in a reader, as long as their interest in the genre is a bit bigger than mine.

Still, while I didn't have a problem with the big picture, I did notice a number of glitches in writing, and most importantly, I found the main characters—no other way to say this—supremely irritating.

Damn! No, really, thanks for saying something. I'll have to work on Cian especially, because everyone seems in agreement that he's the worse of the two. Character development has always been my weak spot, since I have it happen all organically and never consciously. I'm learning though, hopefully.

The technical glitches that stuck in my mind the most were numerous repetitions of Cian's name in the opening scene, as well as some later repetitions of words or phrases in a too close proximity—e.g. "by no means" twice in a same para, Cian rolling his eyes twice in a course of a few para's, etc.

I'll keep an eye out for that. I've had it edited, but it obviously needs even more editing.

The latter would be more than easy to eliminate, but the number of times you mentioned Cian in the opening seems worth mentioning because it looks like a sign of insecurity in tying the POV to him. You might find it a useful piece of general advice to excise most mentions of the POV character and notice it's still clear to the reader we're staying in his point of view, as long as there's an occasional reminder. "The girl was close now" is better than "Cian could see that the girl was close now" the majority of time.

As for main characters… I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable being so blunt, and I remind you again to read it with an understanding of its being only one reader's opinion, but I couldn't find anything remotely likeable about either of the two.

Cian appeared to me like a stereotypical bad boy vampire in the opening scene, and that wasn't so bad—yet. He didn't exactly earn my sympathy by chuckling over his friend's death, but neither was I put off. I was willing to accept him as a type, withhold the judgment about his somewhat unnatural reactions for later, and read further out of curiosity for the developments. A character doesn't have to be a nice person or have positive traits to be alluring, and so I was willing to give him a chance.

However, somewhere around the first eye rolling and onward, he grew more and more annoying to me, crossing over from a-not-so-good-guy-who-could-still-be-a-decent-character to a decidedly bad character. His body language, his thoughts, the way he speaks—they all come across as empty, juvenile, and irritating. Even if your goal for him is to create a character of dubious appeal, the appealing part, for me, just isn't there.

It does seem like I really have to work on Cian! I'm glad that I offered this for discussion, because I never would have guessed that most readers' reaction to him would be so negative. But since you gave your reasoning, I can see how this is happening, and I hope I can fix it. I did plan on him being loathed by readers for much of the story, but not completely irritating.

Unfortunately, my impression of Hannah wasn't any better, and I have to confess I began skimming after a few para's into her point of view. The logic of the story kinda dictates that at least she be the sympathetic one, but I found her suffering from the same flaws as in Cian's presentation. Everything about her struck me as shallow, unconvincing, badass in a theatrical way—almost as if you'd based both of them on B-movies, rather than really going there and trying to imbue them with some genuine emotion. I'm not sure how you intended either of them to come across, but it'll take, in my opinion, some additional, well-thought-out effort to make them minimally engaging.

Again: damn.

I was trying my best not to make Hannah "badass", but more like a normal early-twenties grad student. The fact that she has a gun and knows how to use it for her own protection was supposed to be as far as it goes from that angle. I don't quite understand yet why you find her shallow and unconvincing, and I'd really appreciate it if you could elaborate on that one point, if you feel like it.

Your last question regards the rest of the characters, and here I can only say I found the introductions handled rather smoothly and unobtrusively, which is always nice to see with such a large group. Whether they differ from typical vampires, I'm not equipped to judge, but to my lay perceptions, they looked like a fairly standard crew.

I hope I haven't scared you off and that some more vampire-friendly readers show up soon.

Best of luck,

Verdad

Again, thanks for offering your opinion. Don't worry, I can handle it. I do appreciate you taking the time to do this.

 

[Penelope Street]

Alright - while I'll still try to keep the discussion on the first two chapters, I'm getting the feeling that it might be necessary to discuss the rest of it just a little bit too. I apologize if I'm giving away too much, but oh well.

If any apologies are appropriate, they should probably be mine for not being clear at some point. There's no need to shy away from discussing the rest of the story just because the focus is on the opening. If you believe it's appropriate to bring up anything whatsoever, do so- it's your discussion.

 

[Penelope Street]

I noticed his hesitation in that scene as well, and perceived it as a bit wussy, but most of all, it was that body language thing I mentioned, that made him look more like a spoiled little boy than a 'bad boy' to me.

Yep, Cian does comes across as a spoiled brat- and I think it's 'realistic' for a vampire to be so, but it's not the remotest bit attractive.

As for Hannah, I understand what Penny means when she applauds her for being tougher than the average damsel in distress, but should she be as tough as to show the finger while being attacked by a vampire or "smile wryly" when death-threatened by a whole group of them?

I understand what you mean too. This line stood out for me: Considering the events of the night, it was really a surprise to her that she wasn't much more frightened than she was. Who really evaluates things like this? Not me, that's for sure! When I read that sentence, I thought it was kinda like the author acknowledging the character's composure was a bit too much to believe, but asking me to believe it anyway. To some extent, I did just that, but I have to agree- explaining Hannah's calmness could have been handled a little better.

Hannah and Cian fall in love not because "it just happens" - but because the dimension they're in is messing with them, and changing them. I liked the basic idea of this, because it makes for an interesting dynamic - they actually don't want to be in love with each other, and they sort of hate the fact that they are.

You're correct, that's an interesting dynamic and I am curious how it all works.

Of course, I'm still pondering how to improve the introduction of the vampire group, since you have a great point here as well - it does feel a lot like "here comes Candidate Number One, this is what they're like" "and now there's Candidate Number Two, this is them"...

Do you think I could get away with introducing a few of them the way I have been (the ones that will end up having a more important role), and having some walk in as a group, leaving them anonymous until it switches back to Hannah's PoV?

Yes, I think you could more than get away with that. Then you could probably even skip the entire second scene and go straight to the third.

Hannah didn't end up witnessing Cian commit another truly evil act, which would definitely have thrown her into turmoil. She'd be able to be in denial exactly until the moment that his evilness is thrown in her face again.

I did wonder why I knew things about him that she didn't, especially since this knowledge makes it even less likely that I'll be willing to share her feelings for him. If you tell me she kills him when his evilness is thrown in her face, I promise to read the rest.

I can understand the power of a good fantasy figure, it's just those characters really make the red mist rise for me.

Well, it's not as if I don't want him dead too! Ok, seriously, I can relate to the red mist thing when I recall friends from school who were plenty nice, but were still never asked out by *any* boys, nice or otherwise. It's good to know what buttons an author can push, or not push, in certain readers. Thank you for elaborating.

The two kills at the start did have a feeling of being glossed over. I did have a thought that it might be interesting to linger over them a little more. Show him as an unrepentant predator in all his glory so to speak.

Unrepentant glory? I like it! If these incidents are worth having in the story, then I think it's worth giving at least one of them a scene- though at this point, I'm inclined to believe the story is better without them.

I think you put Hannah in a situation where it was obvious something drastic would have to happen to rescue her. Then the portal arrived and my first thought was WTF! Where is this going? Aliens? Alternate dimensions? It was too big of a lurch into a brand new mystery after already presenting the mystery of the vampires.

There's already something unusual going on with this essence transfer business and the vampires don't seem to totally understand it, so I was willing to accept the emergence of something else they don't understand and didn't expect- though I think the revealing of the vampire's reactions to the portal's appearance could have been a done a little better.

On the subject of Hannah harboring the essence, wouldn't the scratches on her face have healed suddenly too, showing the others she has the essence? She certainly appears to recover quickly from that attack. If so, why does Cian need to shoot her? And why does she have a headache when she wakes- isn't that the result of a concussion that should also have healed?

 

[Verdad]

Hi Jen,

I don't think you should worry about widespread bias against vampire tales. Perhaps Doc could show up and share his experience, since he's recently completed a vampire novel, but I seem to recall his talking about undying popularity of vampire romance with publishers. The bias is clearly my own, and well, you know what they say; there's no accounting for tastes.

What exactly do you mean by "character interplay"? Just making sure I understand this correctly.

I see now I was my usual cryptic with that. What I meant was, had the dialogue been less in the service of supplying the info to the reader and more of letting the characters interact in a way that would be more intuitive for their situation, it would have come out less stilted and it would have likely allowed you to portray both characters in better accordance with what you had in mind for them.

A scene like that is a perfect opportunity for the characters to show what they're made of and to measure themselves against one another. She's got a gun; he's got supernatural powers; for a moment there, they're in a standoff, and they should be concentrated on overtaking the other with maximal efficiency, not being allowed to make speeches. The speech did let you dispose of some of the back info, but at the same time it made Cian look not too bright for getting unnecessarily shot while enjoying the sound of his voice, and Hannah equally not too bright for sitting there and giving him snarky replies instead of either squeezing that trigger for all she's worth or attempting to bargain like crazy.

Since he's supposed to be a cold-blooded, merciless, dangerous guy, and she an average girl in a hopeless situation, scared to death but determined to claw her way out of there if for no other reason than because there's no else to help her, both of them should act accordingly, with not much time to waste on theatricals. Depending on what you wanted, the scene should have been either thumping with adrenaline or swift and chilling for Cian's cruel, invincible efficiency, and in either case it should have left us with sympathy for her and some healthy regard for his being dangerous. As it stands, it made him appear inept to me, and her as if she cared more about pissing him off than saving her dear life.

I was trying my best not to make Hannah "badass", but more like a normal early-twenties grad student. The fact that she has a gun and knows how to use it for her own protection was supposed to be as far as it goes from that angle. I don't quite understand yet why you find her shallow and unconvincing, and I'd really appreciate it if you could elaborate on that one point, if you feel like it.

I don't know if I've made it a bit clearer with what I said about their scene? To me, at least, for someone in Hannah's situation, everything that has no immediate survival focus, and especially everything with no other purpose than demonstrating supposed pride, appears kinda badass. I mean, what exactly could be the purpose of showing a finger to a guy, not to mention vampire, who just wrestles you down? If Hannah has enough presence of mind to do that, shouldn't she rather use it to try to, say, hit him in the balls, or scratch him, or do whatever one does in blind determination to escape?

I think maybe you have in mind for her, at least in this stage, something like the role of Linda Hamilton in Terminator movies, an average girl forced by the circumstances to develop a more than average determination and ability to survive, and that's fine. That character, in fact, displays in time a mean attitude of the first rate, but before we get to the point of cheering when she spits in the face of unbeatable odds, we first see her vulnerable, scared, and far too busy staying alive to care about appearances. With Hannah, I didn't have time or chance to develop that kind of empathy, and I perceived her more as sulking and trying to provoke her boyfriend/nemesis into manhandling her than as someone sincerely fighting for their life.

Character development has always been my weak spot, since I have it happen all organically and never consciously.

That's a perfectly good way to go—maybe even the only way—and I wouldn't necessarily say it's your weak spot. As I said in my second post, I have a hunch that my main quibbles come more from unfortunate prose-writing details that should be settled in the editing phase, than from problems in conception. If I were reading your submission as a rough draft, I'd say it shows a lot of promise, being driven by some solid action and mystery, taking some interesting departures from the run of the mill vampire material (this, after reading your post about further developments), and featuring two characters that will be just hard enough to put in bed together to make it all worth while. Characters reveal themselves in action, and yours have plenty of opportunity to do that.

However, I'd also say, now you gotta go back and put some sweat into making your prose work for, and not against, your goals. To use for the third time the example of eye rolling, as a particularly unfortunate gesture in my opinion, once you're done drafting, you have to go back and examine every gesture, every word choice or turn of phrase for their effects. You have a picture or a feeling in your mind of these characters, and now you need to check whether the words you use help evoke that picture or idea. It's by no means a bad thing to make a dead-dangerous villain do something like giggle, in the heat of the typing, and get on with the story, but later you have to decide if that's the image you wanted to implant in the reader's mind and how it is likely to be perceived.

Again, thanks for offering your opinion.

Thank you, for sharing your work with us and for demonstrating such grace in receiving criticism.

Best,

Verdad

 

[Penelope Street]

In Verdad's excellent post above, this thought really stood out for me among her many fine points:

If I were reading your submission as a rough draft, I'd say it shows a lot of promise, being driven by some solid action and mystery, taking some interesting departures from the run of the mill vampire material (this, after reading your post about further developments), and featuring two characters that will be just hard enough to put in bed together to make it all worth while.

It takes me a long time to write longer pieces, so even though this only went up recently, these first two chapters are at least two years old.

Did it take two years to write this story because you poured hundreds of hours into it, or is it more the case you can't write that often due to other interests or obligations?

It's a well-written tale with some intriguing facets, but I can't get past the nauseating thought of Hannah having a relationship with Cian.

Thinking about it again, I can see I misspoke. It's a well-conceived tale with some intriguing aspects. Though the story could use some polishing, the plot does show a lot of promise. And if there is to be a relationship between the two central characters, at least it is to be a unique, unnatural one, and not something we've all seen before. I'm half-tempted to continue with chapter three.

 

[jomar]

Hi fieryjen..I'm on it. I've read the first chapter and am writing a post while the game is on so bear with me on getting it in tonight!

 

[jomar]

These comments are based on only having read the first chapter. Don't forget, I've been writing creatively for just over a year so I'm an expert and you must take my comments to heart.

First off, did it make you want to keep reading past Chapter 1? Past Chapter 2?

It did, mostly because of the different nature of the vampires. But having said that, I did have preconceived vampire lore stuff that was hard for me to quickly set aside.

I'm also very interested in your reactions to the two main characters. How do they come across so far, and how do you like the way they're introduced?

Others have made excellent comments so I won't repeat.

Cian felt a small twinge of regret as he thought of his former lover, her angelic face flushed and head thrown back in ecstasy. The way she had looked when he had first caught them in bed together, a few years ago. The way she had so often looked when Cian had bedded her. He wasn't a sore loser by any means, but he still missed fucking her sometimes. Like right now.

I thought this para meant that Hannah was Cian's former lover, but then they didn't know each other when he found her. Did I misread that?

I liked Hannah's toughness and survival instinct, but without training she wouldn't have hit the broad side of a barn with a pistol in slightly shaky hands. So unless she's finished up her four years in the Army and is now in grad school, or Daddy was a gun nut and taught her all about firearms, it's gonna be a hard sell for her to hit him on purpose from across the room.

Cian is rather histrionic with all the eye rolling, which could be a fun character - a petulant, pouty, petty bad boy.

Finally, there's the vampire group. You might have noticed that they are a bit on the unusual side - they have some of the traditional vampire characteristics, but there are also some major differences. Did I succeed in introducing that clearly, or might the reader be confused because they are not traditional vampires?

I have to say, I like the concept, but was a bit confused. Like I said, Vampire lore is pretty set. I like dribbling out information so maybe there needs to be another clue besides the knife to clue me in that this is different and I'd better let go of what I think I know.

I like the premise and conflict the first chapter sets up: Hannah wants to live, they want the essence she likely has. Like others, I don't think he would have told her much of anything. And (my old vampire prejudice, and since he was too cool in the intro) he would have slowly moved about the room talking in a hypnotic, bad boy sexy confident way while she followed him the the gun, and only when he was too close realize the danger and take a potshot at him. Unless he was inept and she was a former commando. Don't mind me, just exaggerating for a point. I like that she's a strong woman, I just think there's fleshing out to be done.

The others have also mentioned Cian killing the folks on the way to finding Hannah. I agree it is an opportunity to show just how nasty he is - if you keep it in.

You didn't ask this, but while I'm being picky...

He was sitting on the windowsill, his back leaning against the sturdy wall.

I stumbled over this thinking, how could he sit on the sill and his back be against the wall? I'm guessing you meant his back was against the window frame. Like Penny said, some polishing will help (us all).

I think you have a really intriguing idea for a pretty long story. Nice, fj.

I'll try to get to chapter two tomorrow.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I read Chapter 1 & 2 yesterday. Haven't read any of the other comments yet, so I'll just give you some impressions and then go back and pick up the gist of the discussion and see what everyone's saying.

I'm having some trouble with your writing style and I'm not exactly sure why, but the narrative seems cloudy and kind of "mushy" to me. It's not bright and vivid. I think part of the reason is that it's very tell-y—you tell us a lot what your characters are thinking and feeling rather than show us their feelings and thoughts in their actions. I think, more than that, you do a lot of head-hopping—telling us what Cian and Briar are thinking even in the same paragraph so we're never quite sure of our point of view.

This is unfortunate because you've set yourself the very difficult task of dealing with a group of characters, which is always a bitch. You need things to be clear and clean and detailed if we're ever going to tell them apart

I have to say I'm not a big vampire story lover. They've become clichés, and the trope of associating sex with wickedness is always either undeveloped or quaint in this day and age. Still, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and I loved the first scene, having Briar killed with a steak knife in the back. That was refreshing. Okay. I'm with you. Lead on.

Now we go to the group and I got confused, and getting confused, I got a little discouraged. This is the real beginning of the story, and it's very important. Who are these creatures? What are they? Where are they? You've obviously given a lot of thought to their interrelationships and that's good, but to stress their feelings for one another at the expense of what and where they are at this point is, in my opinion, a big mistake, and that's what you do. And you tell us about it rather than show us their relationships in the way they interact. Tell instead of show again, so we're not likely to remember what you tell us.

I'm a reader who needs to know where he is, who loves his sense of place. They're some place where torches have been lit and there's a basin and a fallen pillar and a door, but that's all I know about the it. For some reason (I don’t know why), I pictured an abandoned store front. Is that okay? I had them in Southern California. Again, why not? Nothing you said gave me reason to put them anywhere else.

The group itself— No, they don’t surprise me. I'm used to punk vampires and businessman vampires, geek vampires and housewife vampires and Nazi vampires and gay vampires. The only thing that would surprise me these days would be an asexual vampire. They're all the same: fuck and suck.

Hannah and Cian: I didn't care much for Cian. I didn't like the way Cian didn't care about Briar's death. Cian doesn't seem to care for anything. What's more, he doesn't act like a man with power at all. He was like a 14 year-old with a gun. The way he goes around killing people for information seemed almost ludicrous to me. I couldn't take him seriously. He's the jaded badboy vampire from central casting.

Hannah— I felt for her at the start, with her gun. But when she's taken back to that place and tied up and then seems to start flirting and wise cracking with Cian even though she knows she's going to be killed, I couldn't believe in her anymore. She just didn't ring true. That vampire claws her face and she cracks wise to Cian. I couldn't buy it.

I'm afraid that I felt like they were both acting according to external scripts. They were caricatures, not characters. He was the badboy vampire, she was the feisty heroine. They're going to fall in love.

The portal that comes up while she's tied up was totally unexpected, totally from left field. There should have been some foreshadowing of this, some mention of this when the vamps met earlier, because as it is, it seems like you just thought of it and threw it in. We had no idea these vampires were involved in this kind of magic, and honestly, the idea that Cian would be shouting explanations to her (and the reader!) while they're fighting for their lives is hard to believe.

So by the time I'm at the end of Chapter 2, I think I know where this is going: Cian is going to save Hannah from the other vamp's wrath and they're going to flee and fall in love. Something like that. This business of her carrying Briar's essence is intriguing. but I'm really bothered by this writing issue, which makes it hard for me to read.

Let me go into full son-of-a-bitch mode here and look at a sample paragraph and look at the writing, at that mushiness I complained about:

Her glance moved back over to the man who had captured her, and she looked him over more than superficially for the first time.

She was shocked when the first thought on her mind turned out to be that he was good-looking, although definitely more than a bit intimidating. He wasn't taller than average but he seemed strong and lithe enough, with pale skin and short hair that was either a very light brown or a very dark blond. The light was dim and she couldn't make it out exactly. What she could make out, however, were his piercing green eyes.

The room didn't appear to have any windows, its grey walls ascending far higher than an ordinary room would have warranted. The only light source was a couple of lit torches, one right next to her captor, the other to her left. There was barely any furniture. The floor was even only in the middle of the room, where Hannah was sitting, and turned into several sets of uneven stone stairs rising toward the edges.

First, I'd eliminate unnecessary words. Substitute "carefully" for "more than superficially". Substitute "to notice" for "when the first thought on her mind turned out to be" and drop the "definitely"; substitute "tall" for "taller than average"; and "short, dark blond hair" for " short hair that was either a very light brown or a very dark blond." Drop the next sentence and put in something like, "The light was dim, but not so dim she couldn't make out his brilliant, emerald green eyes."

All this extra verbiage gives the prose a soft and fuzzy quality, when what you want—especially in a description of something striking—is clarity and vividness and brilliance. Even a striking metaphor wouldn't hurt. Eyes as green as dragon scales, something like that. She's scared and all her senses are on high alert and the way you show that is with images that leap off the page like they're alive.

"The room didn't have any windows." It simply didn't. "Its grey walls ascended as far as she could see," not "far higher than an ordinary room would have warranted."

Now, having read your description, tell me this: how big is the room? What furniture is in it? Is Hannah lower or higher than the edges of the room? Why was it even only in the center?

I don’t mean to criticize so much, but I think one of the big things this story is missing is a sense of mood and the kind of visual clarity that sucks us into the story. I can't see their world very well. I can see the opening scene, and I can see Cian and Hannah face off over the gun, but the rest is muddy to me.

Mood comes from description and choice of words, and I found the description in here—except for the scenes I mentioned—kind of neglected. Scene is always a character, or rather, it's the stage upon which your characters act. Without scene all you've got are voices in the dark.

I think this story has a lot of potential, but I think what you need to do is:

(A) decide on a character for Cian that breaks the mold. He's going to fall in love with Hannah, but why?. What does she have that he needs?

(B) Establish some mood and atmosphere. Right now I'm not getting much. A fallen pillar here, a portal scooting around there…

Okay. I'm off to read to other comments now.

--Zoot

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Redux

Having read the other comments, I see we have quite a few Vampire Story haters here, huh? Yeah, they have been done to death, haven't they? But that doesn't mean they can't still be done. They've just become a genre. And Jen's is very interesting, I think.

I also see that I was pretty much dead wrong about what happens in this story. Apparently the portal leads to a whole new adventure? That's encouraging. I wish I'd seen that sooner. If that's the case, I'd suggest you seriously reconsider the way you've chapterized the book and break Chapter 2 where this post-portal story is more strongly hinted at, or at least put in sufficient foreshadowing so we appreciate the significance of the portal when it appears. Because as it is, I just took the portal for some sort of gimmick and stopped reading, thinking I knew what was going to happen.

I haven't read ahead and still don't know what the portal is, but surely it's something the vamps could mention as they're discussing what happened to Briar's essence? Some sort of set-up is necessary if it marks that big a turning point in the story.

I think Verdad's comments about controlling the flow of information between Cian and Hannah in their confrontation are critical as well, and in two ways. First, it's here where we'll really get to see what Cian's made of--just who he is: his smarts, his ethics, his sexiness. So far he's somewhere between Brad Pitt, Gilbert Gottfried, and the Terminator for me. But he's a vampire--a mighty and puissant Prince of the Night--and their confrontation should sizzle. This could be your make-or-break point as far as reader investment goes. A very important scene. I guess the meeting between hero and heroine always is.

Second, V's dead right that he's going to be fencing with her. This certainly wouldn't be the first time Cian has had to deal with the "public" and he's probably got all sorts of routines worked out--false identities, cover stories. (It's hard for me to believe the only method he has for getting information from people is murdering them. That's so tacky! As a vampire, doesn't he have great powers of will or hypnosis?) You're missing a chance for a lot of fun here in the kind of chess game they'd play.

Of course, his game could break down and the scene could still end the same way as it does now, but how beautiful it would be if he presented himself as a rape counselor, or someone from rabies control! What did she tell them in the hospital anyhow?

 

[fieryjen]

Oookay, I've got major catching up to do here. Sorry if it's a bit jumbled, I'm just sort of commenting as I go.

What's missing with Cian, at least for me, is that confidence most 'bad boys' have- which is what makes them attractive, and him not so. If, for instance, he had chosen to attack Hannah at once, only to have second thoughts after she managed to shoot him, that might have worked better. Of course, there can be a fine line between confidence and arrogance- and the latter is so not sexy!

Agreed. I noticed his hesitation in that scene as well, and perceived it as a bit wussy, but most of all, it was that body language thing I mentioned, that made him look more like a spoiled little boy than a 'bad boy' to me. I mean, do bad boys roll their eyes like capricious girls? Do they chuckle? Do they waste time nurturing petty antipathies, like Cian does for Adrian? And if they do, shouldn't they do so with either wicked humor or calculated cruelty, rather than with petty bitchiness? If I'm not misreading Jen's intentions for Cian's character entirely, Cian should be way too cool and well, way too 'bad', to express himself like that.

I'm pretty clear now on Cian's character needing a huge workover - less whiny little girl, more action. Re-reading the first few parts, I'm not seeing his actions in a very different light. It's strange that they seemed so different when I first wrote them. I don't want him to lose the cruelty entirely - I think that's one of the more important aspects of the character.

Yep, Cian does comes across as a spoiled brat- and I think it's 'realistic' for a vampire to be so, but it's not the remotest bit attractive.

I wanted him to be a bit bratty - it's how I imagined the group of vampires in the first place, a bit too consumed by the petty squabbles they have with each other. They resent having to be in hiding, though they know it's necessary. They have a sense of entitlement too, being more powerful than humans, when compared one-on-one. What I was trying to go for was the impression that Cian does take part in those squabbles, but as opposed to, say, Adrian, who is pretty much all bluster and smoke, he'll occasionally pull through on the threats he makes. I think I might have overdone this, and been a bit hazy about it at the same time.

As for Hannah, I understand what Penny means when she applauds her for being tougher than the average damsel in distress, but should she be as tough as to show the finger while being attacked by a vampire or "smile wryly" when death-threatened by a whole group of them? Unless Hannah knows something we don't, there's tough as nails, but then there's not too bright, too. Maybe some of her tough reactions boil down to unfortunate word choices rather than omissions in how Jen conceived her character, but the end impression I got of Hannah was pretty much like I described above.

You're right, there were some unfortunate choices I made with her actions that portray her in a light that she shouldn't have been portrayed in. I gathered that there aren't as many issues with Hannah as there are with Cian, but some of the comments she makes do seem out of place. She should be much more scared than she is.

I think maybe you have in mind for her, at least in this stage, something like the role of Linda Hamilton in Terminator movies, an average girl forced by the circumstances to develop a more than average determination and ability to survive, and that's fine. That character, in fact, displays in time a mean attitude of the first rate, but before we get to the point of cheering when she spits in the face of unbeatable odds, we first see her vulnerable, scared, and far too busy staying alive to care about appearances. With Hannah, I didn't have time or chance to develop that kind of empathy, and I perceived her more as sulking and trying to provoke her boyfriend/nemesis into manhandling her than as someone sincerely fighting for their life.

That was a really clear explanation and a great help, thank you.

Yes, I think you could more than get away with that. Then you could probably even skip the entire second scene and go straight to the third.

I'm confused as to which scenes you're referring to.

On the subject of Hannah harboring the essence, wouldn't the scratches on her face have healed suddenly too, showing the others she has the essence? She certainly appears to recover quickly from that attack. If so, why does Cian need to shoot her?

Yes, but Cian was the only one paying attention. That's how he was so sure before he even shot her. Shooting Hannah was just a demonstration for the others, superficially, but really Cian just wanted to see her suffer. I could probably clarify that. Do you think that's too evil? I don't want to get rid of his sadistic side completely, but I also don't want it to take over the character. In my mind, the character does enjoy causing some suffering, but he's not one to go through the effort of explicit, planned out torture. (And I know, I had him say something completely different about that matter... I really wasn't thinking a lot here, was I?)

And why does she have a headache when she wakes- isn't that the result of a concussion that should also have healed?

The headache is a direct result of the healing draining her energy. I should have been more clear on that also.

However, I'd also say, now you gotta go back and put some sweat into making your prose work for, and not against, your goals. To use for the third time the example of eye rolling, as a particularly unfortunate gesture in my opinion, once you're done drafting, you have to go back and examine every gesture, every word choice or turn of phrase for their effects. You have a picture or a feeling in your mind of these characters, and now you need to check whether the words you use help evoke that picture or idea. It's by no means a bad thing to make a dead-dangerous villain do something like giggle, in the heat of the typing, and get on with the story, but later you have to decide if that's the image you wanted to implant in the reader's mind and how it is likely to be perceived.

Yes, no kidding. I've got a lot of work ahead of me here, but at least this is helping me figure out what the hell is going on with the story.

Too funny- the story I was going to volunteer for discussion before you agreed to share yours is a vampire tale that I wrote with the express goal of defying cliches!

Hehe

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Erotic Vampires in General

Erotic Vampire stories continue to be hugely popular. In fact, it was just a few years ago that they were finally eclipsed by erotic shapeshifters (that's werewolves and other were-beasties) for the first time, according to the Romance Writers of America as the most popular romantica genre (romantica being romance novels with graphic sex scenes).

The popularity isn't hard to figure out. In folklore, the vampire is clearly an incubus, a male lover who forces his attentions on the female. His blood-drinking, piercing and penetrating her in her bed, is obviously sexual and this provides a guilt-free means of expressing her repressed sexual desires. Moreover, it carries with it its built in sense of wickedness and sin, and all the symbolism involving hearts, mirrors, wasting away, moonlight, is all obviously tangled up with the symbolism of sexual love.

When Bram Stoker wrote Dracula, he hit it big time, giving women (and men), a sexual sublimate at a time when no one dared talk about sex, and women swooned over the book and over Bela Lugosi in the film. Then, of course, Anne Rice made a career over resurrecting the legend and breathing modern life into it, but since then it's been worked to death, usually in a mild BDSM vein . The eroticism comes from the conflation of sexual energy with blood, the stuff of life. You give your life to your lover; the intimacy is that deep.

That truth is a little too uncomfortable for most authors though, and they've backed off. The erotic vampire has instead become a kind of caped superstud whose wickedness is accepted but never really examined or explained, and that's why there seems to be such a backlash against him. These days it's not enough to merely say you're "wicked" and want to drink people's blood. Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy can do that, and so the erotic vampire has lost his sense of menace and eroticism. Without a claim to ethical evil, he's rather impotent, and is too often a shadow of his former self.

But he still is the perfect fantasy lover, able to fly, make love all night, transform his lover, give eternal life (though we call it death), take over her will and all responsibility and speak the language of desire and the night. He wraps her in himself and absorbs her, feeds on her life and lives. There is no greater love. He's pleasure-in-pain, life-in-death, freedom-in-bondage. He'll always be with us.

 

[fieryjen]

Did it take two years to write this story because you poured hundreds of hours into it, or is it more the case you can't write that often due to other interests or obligations?

Oh, no, I just write really slowly. I get stuck a lot, and leave the story along for quite a while. And yes, I also have a day job.

Especially writing endings is always painful for me, and I have to force myself to get the words onto the page. Getting something finished - just the story finished, even if it's raw, is a major success for me. I don't know if it's the same for others, but that's how I feel about it anyway.

Thinking about it again, I can see I misspoke. It's a well-conceived tale with some intriguing aspects. Though the story could use some polishing, the plot does show a lot of promise. And if there is to be a relationship between the two central characters, at least it is to be a unique, unnatural one, and not something we've all seen before. I'm half-tempted to continue with chapter three.

Thank you, that was a very kind comment, and quite encouraging to hear.

I liked Hannah's toughness and survival instinct, but without training she wouldn't have hit the broad side of a barn with a pistol in slightly shaky hands. So unless she's finished up her four years in the Army and is now in grad school, or Daddy was a gun nut and taught her all about firearms, it's gonna be a hard sell for her to hit him on purpose from across the room.

Daddy was definitely a gun nut. I thought about having Hannah mention somewhere halfway through that she first shot a gun when she was ten or something like that, and maybe I should consider adding that again. The only real advantage Hannah has against the vampires is that she's a pretty good shot, so I'd like to keep that in the story.

He was sitting on the windowsill, his back leaning against the sturdy wall.

I stumbled over this thinking, how could he sit on the sill and his back be against the wall? I'm guessing you meant his back was against the window frame. Like Penny said, some polishing will help (us all).

The kind of setting I had in mind was one of these ancient houses with really thick walls, so he'd be sitting sideways, basically inside the rectangular wall cutout for the window. I had no clue how to describe that though, I didn't know the words, and so I just ended up glossing over it. Yep, will do the polishing.

The others have also mentioned Cian killing the folks on the way to finding Hannah. I agree it is an opportunity to show just how nasty he is - if you keep it in.

Opinions still seem to be divided on this part, and I have to admit I am too. The options seem to be to either take the two deaths out completely, or to really go into detail with at least one of them.

Right now, I'm leaning towards going into detail with one of them. Maybe Cian wouldn't kill his victim in cold blood though - if there's a trigger, such as her trying to scream, and him being in danger of being discovered, I can still get the point across that he has no problem with killing, but it doesn't make him seem quite so eager to kill innocents.

 

[fieryjen]

Erotic Vampire stories continue to be hugely popular. In fact, it was just a few years ago that they were finally eclipsed by erotic shapeshifters (that's werewolves and other were-beasties) for the first time, according to the Romance Writers of America as the most popular romantica genre (romantica being romance novels with graphic sex scenes).

The popularity isn't hard to figure out. In folklore, the vampire is clearly an incubus, a male lover who forces his attentions on the female. His blood-drinking, piercing and penetrating her in her bed, is obviously sexual and this provides a guilt-free means of expressing her repressed sexual desires. Moreover, it carries with it its built in sense of wickedness and sin, and all the symbolism involving hearts, mirrors, wasting away, moonlight, is all obviously tangled up with the symbolism of sexual love.

When Mram Stoker wrote Dracula, he hit it big time, giving women (and men), a sexual sublimate at a time when no one dared talk about sex, and women swooned over the book and over Bela Lugosi in the film. Then, of course, Anne Rice made a career over resurrecting the legend and breathing modern life into it, but since then it's been worked to death, usually in a mild BDSM vein . The eroticism comes from the conflation of sexual energy with blood, the stuff of life. You give your life to your lover; the intimacy is that deep.

That truth is a little too uncomfortable for most authors though, and they've backed off. The erotic vampire has instead become a kind of caped superstud whose wickedness is accepted but never really examined or explained, and that's why there seems to be such a backlash against him. These days it's not enough to merely say you're "wicked" and want to drink people's blood. Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy can do that, and so the erotic vampire has lost his sense of menace and eroticism. Without a claim to ethical evil, he's rather impotent, and is too often a shadow of his former self.

Hmm, some interesting stuff to consider. Thanks for posting it.

I'll get to your comments in a moment, I'll just have to take a deeeeep breath first.