The Mutt
Cunnilingus Ergo Sum
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2004
- Posts
- 22,265
Just consciousness.kbate said:As long as congressmen can speak freely we need never worry about losing freedom.
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Just consciousness.kbate said:As long as congressmen can speak freely we need never worry about losing freedom.
Ishmael said:So the citation of the 2nd is of no consequence as far as precedent? Bite me sparky.
Ishmael
Hale wants to find in Miller the rule that individual possession of true military weapons [**7] is protected under the Second Amendment. When the Second Amendment was ratified in 1791, the state militias functioned as both the principal units of military organization and as an implicit check on federal power. See generally Keith A. Ehrman & Dennis A. Henigan, The Second Amendment in the Twentieth Century: Have You Seen Your Militia Lately?, 15 U. Dayton L. Rev. 5 (1989). These militias were comprised of ordinary citizens who typically were required to provide their own equipment and arms. The Second Amendment prevented federal laws that would infringe upon the possession of arms by individuals and thus render the state militias impotent. Over the next 200 years, state militias first faded out of existence and then later reemerged as more organized, semi-professional military units. The state provided the arms and the equipment of the militia members, and these were stored centrally in armories. With the passage of the Dick Act in 1903, the state militias were organized into the national guard structure, which remains in place today. Id.
More recently, the Supreme Court in Perpich v. U.S. Department of Defense, 496 U.S. 334, 110 L. Ed. 2d 312, 110 S. Ct. 2418 (1990), [**8] has analyzed the early history of the militia, including the Act of 1792 which required militia members to provide themselves "with a good musket or firelock," as well as cartridges and other equipment. The Court observed that these requirements were virtually ignored for more than a century. Id. at 341. Perpich discusses in detail the relationship between the militia and the National Guard and recognizes that the "Federal Government provides virtually all of the funding, the materiel, and the leadership for the State Guard units." Id. at 351. While Perpich does not deal with the Second Amendment issue present here, its discussion of the militia gives further dimension to our analysis.
Considering this history, we cannot conclude that the Second Amendment protects the individual possession of military weapons. In Miller, the Court simply recognized this historical residue. The rule emerging from Miller is that, HN5absent a showing that the possession of a certain weapon has "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia," the Second Amendment does not guarantee the [**9] right to possess the weapon. Miller, 307 U.S. at 178. Miller simply "did not hold . . . that the Second Amendment is an absolute prohibition against all regulation of the manufacture, transfer and possession of any instrument capable of being used in military action." Warin, 530 F.2d at 106.
***
Since the Miller decision, no federal court has found any individual's possession of a military weapon to be "reasonably related to a well regulated militia." HN7"Technical" membership in a state militia (e.g., membership in an "unorganized" state militia) or membership in a non-governmental military organization is not sufficient to satisfy the "reasonable relationship" test. Oakes, 564 F.2d at 387. [**12] Membership in a hypothetical or "sedentary" militia is likewise insufficient. See Warin, 530 F.2d 103.
Applying these principles to the present case, we conclude that Hale's possession of the weapons in question was not reasonably related to the preservation of a well regulated militia. The allegation by Hale that these weapons are susceptible to military use is insufficient to establish such a relationship. Hale introduced no evidence and made no claim of even the most tenuous relationship between his possession of the weapons and the preservation of a well regulated militia.
Citing dicta from United States v. Verdego-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265, 108 L. Ed. 2d 222, 110 S. Ct. 1056 (1990), Hale argues that the Second Amendment protections apply to individuals and not to states or collective entities like militias. This argument is inapplicable to this case. The purpose of the Second Amendment is to restrain the federal government from regulating the possession of arms where such regulation would interfere with the preservation or efficiency of the militia. See Miller, 307 U.S. at 178; United States v. Oakes, 564 F.2d 384 (10th Cir. 1977), [**13] cert. denied, 435 U.S. 926, 55 L. Ed. 2d 521, 98 S. Ct. 1493 (1978); Cody, 460 F.2d 34. HN8Whether the "right to bear arms" for militia purposes is "individual" or "collective" in nature is irrelevant where, as here, the individual's possession of arms is not related to the preservation or efficiency of a militia.
Evil Attorney said:
Ishmael said:Glad you posted that. Most don't know the historical origins of 'gun control.'
Interestingly enough, you'll find the same roots in the origins of the public schools.
Ishmael
Evil Attorney said:Most don't care.
Nothing is shorter than a politician's memory for uncomfortable facts.
Ishmael said:That should be their motto. "If you don't like reality, lie."
Ishmael
Ishmael said:I should get a sense of humor, huh?
Ishmael
Ishmael said:Oh bite me.
Ishmael
kbate said:ah, your fluffiness of late has left you grumpy. Can I help?
I did enjoy your poetry in the lost&found thread.![]()
Ishmael said:I had a second verse ready to go. No takers. <shrug>
Ishmael
kbate said:Perhaps he believed you would actually cap him.
I don't know about that - it isn't just guns that make a society polite, it is values. Look at Somalia.Pyro Paul said:The world would be a much safer place if every one had a fire arm. also a whole hellva lot smarter.
well this didn't age well....I won't argue with anybody's constitutional right to bear arms but I'm still quite confused why anybody would need to own a military style gun? Beyond the obvious reasons of for killing human beings.
Just because the basic right is there should this mean any gun deemed a "gun" can be owned by an American citizen? In fact, the Constitution says "arms." Does this mean our forefathers thought we should be able to bear any weapon arms manufacturers can develop? I'm sure they had no concept of just how good our weaponry could get.
And if we're going to own guns like this, because all American citizens are such responsible gun owners, why shouldn't they be tracked with ballistic fingerprinting? I wonder if such a program was in place during the sniper investigation if the suspects would have been traced quicker. The sniper's gun was illegally owned but had been initially legitimately sold to a distributer.....somewhere along the way it was insecure enough to be stolen or it was passed on illegally. If there were ballistics fingerprinting wouldn't even a stolen gun be traced quicker?
Why do gun proponents think there should be no limitations, no registration and no tracking if they have every intention of being responsible gun owners?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/25/n...00&en=03042a63fef8433b&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
Officials Say Records Show Gun Was Illegally Owned
By FOX BUTTERFIELD
Federal authorities said last night that a gun seized from two suspects had been officially linked to the shootings in the Washington area and that one of the suspects, John Allen Muhammad, should have been legally disqualified from buying or possessing it.
The gun is a Bushmaster XM15 A3 M4, a civilian version of the standard American military rifle, the M-16, made with a removable handle on top so that a scope can be easily mounted on it, say officials of its maker, Bushmaster Firearms.
Bushmaster Firearms is a small privately owned company in Windham, Me., that specializes in making copies of the M-16. Last year it made 50,000 rifles, said the company's vice president, Allen Faraday, with the XM15 selling for about $800. On its Web site, Bushmaster advertises its rifles as "the best, by a long shot."
Michael Bouchard, an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, said at a news conference that tests had linked the seized gun to the East Coast killings.
Mr. Faraday said the gun was first sold to a distributor in Washington State last June. He declined to identify the wholesaler and said he did not know how or where Mr. Muhammad acquired the rifle.
The sniper's choice of the XM15 was a little unusual, Mr. Faraday said, because it has a 16-inch barrel and is therefore less accurate than the conventional M-16, which has a 20-inch barrel, or many sniper rifles that have 26-inch barrels. The shorter barrel, however, does make the XM15 easier to conceal.
In a telephone interview, Mr. Faraday said today, "Naturally we feel terrible and horrified" by the sniper killings in Maryland, Virginia and Washington, D.C. "We are very sad this deranged and crazy man picked up one of our guns."
Bushmaster first learned the identity of the gun seized in Mr. Muhammad's car when A.T.F. agents called the company a few hours later with the weapon's serial number, Mr. Faraday said.
Legally, Mr. Muhammad apparently should not have been able to buy a gun because he was under a domestic protective order taken out in March 2000 by Mildred Denice Muhammad, then his wife, in State Superior Court in Tacoma, Wash., court records show. The couple, who lived in Tacoma, were divorced in October 2000, and the restraining order was made permanent, the court documents also show.
The 1994 Crime Control Act made it illegal for a person under a restraining order to buy or possess a gun, and a mandatory background check should have revealed Mr. Muhammad's disqualification. It was Mr. Muhammad's possession of the gun, despite his disqualification, that led the authorities to charge him Wednesday night with a firearms violation, an official of the firearms bureau said.
Figures compiled by the bureau show that Bushmaster was a tiny company until the Clinton administration persuaded Congress to pass a ban on assault weapons in 1994. From 1988 to 1992, Bushmaster manufactured an average of only 1,500 rifles a year, and made none in 1993, the year before the ban. But in 1994 its production jumped to 24,868 rifles.
Mr. Faraday was careful to say its copies of the M-16 were not assault weapons, since they do not have collapsible stocks, flash suppressers or a mounting to install a bayonet, some features that were ruled out by the 1994 ban. The magazine of the XM15 also holds only 10 rounds, the permissible limit set by the 1994 ban.
In addition, the rifle is only a semiautomatic, requiring a trigger pull for each shot, not fully automatic as a military rifle, which allows multiple rounds to be fired with a single pull of the trigger.
But Kristen Rand, the legislative director for the Violence Policy Center in Washington, a gun control group, said that the XM15 seized in Mr. Muhammad's car still had features that mimic an assault weapon.
"It complies with the letter of the law, but it is still an assault rifle," Ms. Rand said.
The ban on assault weapons expires in 2004 and is considered likely to be the subject of a major fight in Congress. The National Rifle Association strongly opposed the ban and has made not renewing it a priority. The association has also opposed the prohibition on people under a restraining order from buying a gun.
A spokesman for the association, Andrew Arulanandam, did not return telephone calls today seeking comment.
Bushmaster's principal owner and chairman, Richard Dyke, was the finance chairman of George W. Bush's campaign for the presidency in Maine in 1999. Mr. Dyke resigned as Mr. Bush's chief fund-raiser in Maine in July 1999 after a Los Angeles police officer sued Bushmaster as the maker of a gun that wounded him in a shootout with bank robbers.
2005… if only he’d listened!I should get a sense of humor, huh?
Ishmael