Misandry VS Misogyny VS Misanthropy

[MillieDynamite]

What I'm imagining is already a large cast. But thanks for the advice.

Add two more detectives to your story, a non-binary CIS female and a non-binary CIS male.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I've always thought that the tropes of "hate" and "monsters" don't really convey the situation. I disagree with the idea that the world must have "created" them somehow. There are plenty of cases of serial killers and other monsters who grew up in normal, well adjusted homes.

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, some people just don't see people as people, they see them as things. Hurting people is no different than breaking a toy. If it's fun to rip the arm off of a Barbie doll, then why not rip the arm off of Barbie, the waitress at Steak and Shake...

I suspect there might also be simple environmental issues in a more materialistic sense. You and many others reading this thread will probably be familiar with the book Murderland, which argues that industrial pollution has contributed to some of the psychopathy we've seen in the past few decades. Fits with the lead-crime hypothesis as well. I personally don't even nearly have enough data to confirm these suspicions but I'd be more surprised if there's nothing to them than if they're a huge part of the explanation.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

After writing this post I realized that a much more compelling and probably common example would be a man who hates the fact that he feels emotionally vulnerable around women. Easy to imagine that having to do with something in his early childhood. So he hurts women (to what degree and in what ways would depend on the details) to try to make himself feel better. That would definitely be a misogyny.

The world would be relatively boring if more of us dealt with our emotional issues constructively, but boring would be so much better.

We try to build this projection thing, because the truth is too scary for many of us. "He must do this for this reason that I perceive as logical."
The reality is something different. Some people just enjoy hurting other people, and they don't care. They don't need a reason, it isn't some weird form of projection. They just have a fundamentally different sense of morality than you do. They don't perceive there being anything wrong with it, because it is completely compatible with their own morality.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Misandry doesn’t exist. MRA groups are fucking trash.

Oh, my sides! The irony...

 

[MillieDynamite]

Serial Killers span a wide range of personalities. The reason they kill, the ways they kill, the why, nature for some, nurture for others, a combination for others. Psychopaths who kill, some become serial killers, but not all psychopaths do either.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'll check on things tomorrow—family time.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Some have gone the other way, to rape and abuse, in the case of one OKC cop.

And one in CHP.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There are over 700,000 law enforcement officers in the US. Of course there are some bad apples.
Look how many kids are abused by teachers every year, doesn't mean all teachers are terrible.

 

[Britva415]

It’s so very, very common to accuse others of failings that a person is incapable of acknowledging in themselves

They say "if you spot it, you've got it."

 

[Britva415]

Oh, my sides! The irony...

There's no irony there. You can say that without being misandrist.

Misandrist would be "all men are trash."

 

[TheRedChamber]

There's no irony there. You can say that without being misandrist.

Misandrist would be "all men are trash."

Sounds like a neat cheat code.

All feminists are trash. (Not misogyny because not all women are feminists)

All women who want access to legal abortion are trash. (Not misogyny because, sing along, not all women want this...)

This is fun...

 

[Britva415]

Sounds like a neat cheat code.

All feminists are trash. (Not misogyny because not all women are feminists)

All women who want access to legal abortion are trash. (Not misogyny because, sing along, not all women want this...)

This is fun...

You got me, I was not expecting that.

However, I still don't think that it's misandry to push back against misogyny.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You got me, I was not expecting that.

However, I still don't think that it's misandry to push back against misogyny.

Then why is it misogyny to push back against misandry?

 

[Britva415]

Then why is it misogyny to push back against misandry?

I'm not the one to ask, I don't believe that either. Who did you mean to @ there?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm not the one to ask, I don't believe that either. Who did you mean to @ there?

You seem to be taking the side of the people who are accusing men's rights activists of being misogynists. Did I misunderstand your position on that matter?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Ladies, gentlemen, and you rare and precious enbies floating in the wings, we are at T-minus ten posts until someone brings up Man vs Bear. Drinks at the ready, people. We're nearly there.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If I were you (which I'm not), working on this story idea, I would put aside the labels and their definitions and focus on the specific motives of the characters-- how they feel, and why they feel that way. The concept you have is interesting, and likely to create dramatic fireworks, but I'd be asking myself WHY I want to write this story and what my purpose is in pairing two characters with somewhat parallel forms of hatred investigating a killer. What are you trying to say? Is there a purpose behind it or is it motivated more by the interesting effects you can achieve by having such negatively driven characters paired together?

I agree but not so much for the necessity of making a statement but because the readers will try to put a point on it for you so you probably want to be ready for that.

 

[Britva415]

You seem to be taking the side of the people who are accusing men's rights activists of being misogynists. Did I misunderstand your position on that matter?

Pushing back against misandry isn't misogynist. I didn't say it was, so, yeah, that's your own projection.

I don't know anything about "sides," but I haven't seen an example of MRA which wasn't motivated by misogyny.

I haven't really dOnE mY oWn ReSeArCh because it's so alienating and distasteful, I haven't wanted to look into it. Maybe that makes me ignorant. Teachable moment, here? What have I missed out on?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I've always thought that the tropes of "hate" and "monsters" don't really convey the situation. I disagree with the idea that the world must have "created" them somehow. There are plenty of cases of serial killers and other monsters who grew up in normal, well adjusted homes.

This really is a case where both of you are right. There is a significant difference between psychopaths and sociopaths even though their behaviors can often be identical. The psychopath was born with no empathy, no sense of consequence etc. Society did not create this 'monster' he was born fucked up. But the sociopath 'learned' his behaviors, how to set aside his empathy, usually at a young age as a means of survival. In this case his upbringing 'created the monster' or at least had a very large hand in doing so.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Pushing back against misandry isn't misogynist. I didn't say it was, so, yeah, that's your own projection.

I don't know anything about "sides," but I haven't seen an example of MRA which wasn't motivated by misogyny.

I haven't really dOnE mY oWn ReSeArCh because it's so alienating and distasteful, I haven't wanted to look into it. Maybe that makes me ignorant. Teachable moment, here? What have I missed out on?

Thinking fathers and mothers should be treated equally in matters of child custody is "Motivated by misogyny?"
That's a hot take.

 

[TheRedChamber]

You got me, I was not expecting that.

However, I still don't think that it's misandry to push back against misogyny.

I think we agree that misandry and misogyny are both bad. Pretending the misogyny doesn't exist is itself misogynistic, and so it goes with misandry. And fighting against misogyny can also overstep its fully-justified targets and descend into more generalized man-hate..

We had a thread here recently where people were horrified that someone was promoting a book about boys beating depression, getting out of the house and actually meeting girls and that such a book must contain 'dog-whistled' misogyny even when they couldn't immediately identify them. Not everything that benefits men harms women.

There's the infamous Hilary Clinton quote:

Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.

which is just one word away from being perfectly fine and perfectly empathic but trips itself into absurdity with that one word that makes suffering a competition.

(Please add a '...and visa versa' onto the end of practically every sentence in this post)

 

[RetroFan]

Understandable because the word's often used in situations where both would apply. But the "anthro" means "mankind", like in "anthropology".

Some TV characters are described as misanthropic - Basil Fawlty from the classic 1970s UK sitcom 'Fawlty Towers' is one example, Victor Meldrew from 1990s UK sitcom 'One Foot In The Grave' another. An American example would be the fictionalized version of Larry David from 'Curb Your Enthusiasm'.

It is true that all of these characters have problems getting along with people in general. Basil Fawlty is an awful hotel manager thanks to his short temper and poor people skills, Victor Meldrew a grumpy old man, and Larry David's terrible social skills cause him no end of trouble. But none of them you would say hate people in general. All three are married, are shown to have friends and Basil in particular likes certain types of people - members of the upper class, professions such as doctors (excluding psychiatrists) and pretty girls - and will fawn over them rather than be rude to them when they stay at his hotel. In CYE Larry David's more spectacular disasters usually come about when he is trying to be nice to people, especially children, rather than when he is being a grouch or too stubborn for his own good.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Pushing back against misandry isn't misogynist. I didn't say it was, so, yeah, that's your own projection.

I don't know anything about "sides," but I haven't seen an example of MRA which wasn't motivated by misogyny.

I haven't really dOnE mY oWn ReSeArCh because it's so alienating and distasteful, I haven't wanted to look into it. Maybe that makes me ignorant. Teachable moment, here? What have I missed out on?

Well you're not wrong. I was trying to do a three part report thing on MRA, MGTOW, and Red Pill years ago. MRA isn't exactly motivated by misogyny, but there are some jaded members who seem to think that going too far isn't going to far, as if misogny is going to help the cause. Letting contempt blind their judgement to what the real cause is.

A group is trying to make family court realize fathers are worth a damn, and have a plan for better custody rights. Then that one chuckle fuck goes; "that's right, let's take the children so they know how it feels." When that's not at all what the plan is. Those who forget the purpose and focus as a betterment for men, which isn't also make women suffer. It's no longer about mens rights, for those types. They're the male parallel to the feminazi.

 

[TheLobster]

Man vs Bear

Well, this seems like an overly narrow choice these days. We know from, ahem, literature, that much more types of monsters are in currently vogue: vampires, werewolves, minotaurs, centaurs, produce, Nick Fuentes, octopi, mothmen; and I'm probably forgetting some still...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Misogyny and misandry both exist, and you'd have to be a complete idiot to think otherwise.

The same as with every political group, MRA and WRA have plenty of people who are there to do exactly what they are supposed to do, fight for the rights of their sex, but there are also extremists - misogynists and misandrists.

And the same as with every other political group, extremists are always loud and they fuel the reactions of extremists in the other group. They can't exist without each other's support in this sense.

This is the same problem we face everywhere - moderates who allow extremists to set the tone of every movement, and it just starts the chain reaction. If every political group worked to shut up their extremists, we'd have far less problems in the world.

Also, to be fair, misogyny is far more systemic and its scale is far above the scale of misandry in the world. Stop always looking at the US only.