Is there a tag for this sort of M/M activity?

[AG31]

In another thread today I was prompted to describe what I meant by @cw5523729's quiestion: " At the risk of sounding like a homophobe, what kind of MM activity falls into the category of "not clearly gay"?

My reply was: "BDSM, when the action is clearly hostile. I don't think "hostile" is exactly right, but I can't think of a more nuanced word."

The thread also pointed out that M/M activity could be problematic enough for some readers that it would be polite to add a tag. Any ideas bout what that tag might be? "BDSM M/M activity when the action is clearly <hostile>" doesn't look like a tag. And "do-er" and "done-to" lack felicity.

Note: Occasionally people have suggested that these are really gay stories. But my MCs don't experience desire for men.

Here are the situations I'd like to tag.

Straight man signs up for a night at a BDSM club. Do-ers are both men and women.
Straight soldier discovers he enjoys pain and humiliation at the hands of his captors, who happen to be men.
Straight man (same man as soldier above) signs up for a BDSM experience.
Straight man signs up for an evening of humiliation at the hands of a woman, one of whose techniques is to give him to a gay guy.
Straight man gives himself over to sexual pain and humiliation to save his wife.
Straight man lets himself be done-to by a club of gay men.
Straight man sacrifices himself to be a sex slave for the sake of his village.
Straight man is taken to a sex club by a woman to be the night's feature. Do-ers are men and women.

Thoughts?

 

[Off_base]

Reluctant MM bdsm?

 

[AG31]

Reluctant MM bdsm?

Best so far...

 

[Gamblnluck]

I tend to think that voluntary MM activity is gay. Now at the same time, most of those scenarios you described above cloud that a bit. One of my own personal 'squicks' is MM kissing. Stupid perhaps, but that is more intimate than a blowjob or anal.
As far as tags go, I rarely bother to do much more than skim them. Once they get too detailed, or too many, I ignore them.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

'Reluctant gay male' sounds about right. The people who complain about such things will think it's gay. BDSM readers tend to be somewhat more open minded than many. If the main point is the reluctant m/m interaction, Fetish might work well.

 

[Britva415]

If the BDSM is not reluctant, then I wouldn't call the MM aspect reluctant.

Unless the story features a real subversion of the character's expectations.

But if it's not sexual, I wouldn't call it gay either.

"Reluctant MM BDSM" is the best I've seen so far - as long as it really is reluctant.

Tags are not just for searching. They also are simply informative. So, spell it whatever way is most informative.

 

[AG31]

I tend to think that voluntary MM activity is gay.

Doesn't "gay" imply desire? No attention at all is paid to the motivations or feelings of the do-er. The person who is being done to has no such motivation.

What about the rest of you? Does "gay" imply desire?

 

[cw5523729]

Doesn't "gay" imply desire? No attention at all is paid to the motivations or feelings of the do-er. The person who is being done to has no such motivation.

What about the rest of you? Does "gay" imply desire?

I'd say I agree. While certainly not the only situation, to give an example say male character A is raped by male character B, you'd tag it as MM but you wouldn't refer to character A as being gay.

 

[ElectricBlue]

What about the rest of you? Does "gay" imply desire?

Not really. It's a word that refers to a sexual identity, but just by itself, I don't think it automatically signifies desire. There's no correlation in my mind.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Doesn't "gay" imply desire? No attention at all is paid to the motivations or feelings of the do-er. The person who is being done to has no such motivation.

What about the rest of you? Does "gay" imply desire?

In general I'd say yes. As a non-BDSM example, there are plenty of female sex workers who take male clients but only date women in their personal lives, and when talking openly they'll generally describe themselves as lesbian/gay.

That said, even when desire is present, it can be complicated. Sexual health often uses the term "men who have sex with men" (MSM) because there are a lot of guys who have sex with other guys but don't consider themselves to be gay or bi, I think because they're distinguishing between physical and emotional connections, or perhaps struggling with internalised homophobia. If one's trying to persuade MSM to use condoms and all the rest of it, it's easier just to talk about "men who have sex with men" than try to convince those guys that "gay"/"bi" applies to them.

I think "MM" is a better tag than "gay" here, especially since it also dodges the question of gay vs. bi.

 

[Britva415]

What about the rest of you? Does "gay" imply desire?

It depends whether it's about the person's identity or their behavior/activity.

Gay people do heterosexual behaviors all the time. It's called the closet. So if gay things are being done to a not-gay person, hell, maybe even by a not-gay person, we already stipulated that they're "gay things" being done.

As far as tags go, the distinction isn't a difference. Or however that goes - the difference isn't a distinction?

Same thing

 

[AG31]

It depends whether it's about the person's identity or their behavior/activity.

Gay people do heterosexual behaviors all the time. It's called the closet. So if gay things are being done to a not-gay person, he'll, maybe even by a not-gay person, we already stipulated that they're "gay things" being done.

As far as tags go, the distinction isn't a difference. Or however that goes - the difference isn't a distinction?

Same thing

Good insight. Gotta mull it over, as I'm not content that it's correct to use "gay" like we use "heterosexual." But, thought provoking.

 

[AG31]

I think "MM" is a better tag than "gay" here, especially since it also dodges the question of gay vs. bi

Yes, it rings truer.

 

[Britva415]

Good insight. Gotta mull it over, as I'm not content that it's correct to use "gay" like we use "heterosexual." But, thought provoking.

Wouldn't make any difference if we said "straight" or "homosexual" instead.

I'm bi, but my sex is either gay sex or straight sex if there's only one partner involved. "Bi sex" would require more than one partner, no matter how I identify.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

In porn this is often called forced bi.

 

[AG31]

In porn this is often called forced bi.

Thanks. It appears that's a frequently used tag in the Lit stories. It will work for some of my stories.

 

[OddLove]

The first thing that popped into my head was GNG 'gay non-gay', cause like CNC 'consensual non-consent', it's exactly what it says it's not.

So in the same way Consensual Non-consent is consensual, Gay Non-gay would be gay.

Uunfortunately, I'm not sure that's a phrase people use, and to those who don't understand what Consensual Non-consent is, it would probably just be confusing.

Too bad though, cause the GNG thing would be a helpful tag yo let people know the story involves male on male sex without male on male attraction.

With the tags that are commonly used, I also agree 'forced bi' is a solid one.

Maybe 'bi curious', 'bisexual' and if the story is going to have a dominant and/or bratty woman pushing/demanding them into it, then other tags like 'femdom', 'mistress', and 'FLR' aka female led relation, can all be useful tags to help readers find the kind of stories they enjoy.

In some of the story tags you mentioned it sounds like they would fit well in the BDSM category, even if there are Gay Non-gay elements to it. But some of the more desperate ones, like being a gay slave to save a village would be something that people browsing the reluctance category would be more likely to enjoy.

 

[Statius]

M/M BI? Bi/ poly?

 

[yowser]

Gay adjacent? Walks like a gay?

 

[cw5523729]

I feel like there should have been some reference by now to those t-shirts that read "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"

 

[cw5523729]

I tend to think that voluntary MM activity is gay. Now at the same time, most of those scenarios you described above cloud that a bit. One of my own personal 'squicks' is MM kissing. Stupid perhaps, but that is more intimate than a blowjob or anal.

Not stupid at all because I'd agree. Two guys kissing is inherently intimate and it would be hard to imagine a story with a 'reluctant' kiss that wouldn't deserve an MM tag but I also agree with @AG31 that it's easy to imagine a lot of situations that would include reluctant sexual content in the BDSM category at a minimum, and probably others.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Doesn't "gay" imply desire? No attention at all is paid to the motivations or feelings of the do-er. The person who is being done to has no such motivation.

What about the rest of you? Does "gay" imply desire?

To me, Gay implies desire not just the associated sex acts. I know happily married bisexual men who enjoy sex with other men(or trans women, ahem), but aren't emotionally interested in or physically attracted to them at all, just their cock or their ass.
There wives are for the emotional connection, the intimacy. Guys are just for occasional physical relief; sex.

There's no romance, no emotion, it's just the act. In my book, not gay, just bisexual.

 

[Britva415]

I feel like there should have been some reference by now to those t-shirts that read "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"

Mission accomplished!

 

[Britva415]

To me, Gay implies desire not just the associated sex acts. I know happily married bisexual men who enjoy sex with other men(or trans women, ahem), but aren't emotionally interested in or physically attracted to them at all, just their cock or their ass.
There wives are for the emotional connection, the intimacy. Guys are just for occasional physical relief; sex.

There's no romance, no emotion, it's just the act. In my book, not gay, just bisexual.

This erases bi people who actually do experience romance and emotion with same sex partners.

 

[redgarters]

BDSM M/M activity when the action is clearly <hostile>" doesn't look like a tag.

What you're describing sounds like consensual non-consent. Why not use that tag along with m/m?
And I feel it might be good for this thread to remember that bi people exist.