Healthy Clothing Sizes/Body Sizes

[SamanthaBehgs]

The attribution of "attractiveness" itself signifies some "remarkableness" about the person's appearance thus (positively) distinguished. It could be argued that to judge someone "attractive" eo ipso lifts them out of the unnoticed mass of people (the "average").


Body weight tends to correlate with certain "proportions." E.g., it will be extremely rare for an obese person (BMI ≥ 30) to have an hourglass figure. Hence, by perceiving and appraising the gestalt of other people we indirectly gauge their body weight too.


Many of the prehistoric statuettes commonly called "Venus figurines," which might be interpreted as representations of fertility goddesses, show (obese) curves, definitely, but no hourglass figure, e.g., Venus of Willendorf or Venus of Hohle Fels.

And if we take a look at the fertility goddesses of the ancient Mesopotamians (Inanna), Egyptians (Isis), Greeks (Demeter), Romans (Ceres), and Norsemen (Sif), then their depictions show either virtually no curves at all (Inanna, Isis) or only very modest ones (Demeter, Ceres, Sif). Most (preserved) Greek and Roman female statues indeed show no pronounced hourglass figure, e.g., the famous Venus de Milo whose WHR value of 0.76 is significantly greater than the most attractive "hourglass" WHR value of 0.70 or less. Furthermore none of these ancient goddesses show any signs of being overweight (BMI ≥ 25), not to mention obesity (BMI ≥ 30).

Hence, if anything at all, it was only relatively recently in Western societies that not being overweight (let alone not being obese) stopped being considered a basic prerequisite of beauty; likewise it could have been only a relatively recent development, if at all factual, that body weight stopped playing any role at all in "peak beauty" (supposedly respresented from then on by the "hourglass figure" regardless of weight).

I'm not in a place right now to necessarily go through and confirm or refute what you've placed here, though it does bring to attention a few things and a desire to perhaps update the research I've been basing my claims on (e.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16818094/). You'll note the citation is from approximately 20 years ago as are the similar citations that I can quickly pull up from the notes I've taken on the subject in the past, and so maybe what you are referencing is based on more recent research in evolutionary psychology and anthropology.

Thanks for giving me something cool to think about and update before the next time I teach this subject comes.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

Hmm. Your plot point kind of reminds me of David and Natalie in "Love, Actually." It seemed to be a running inside joke that people around them kept calling her fat, but David (Hugh Grant) and the audience (me, at least) were mystified as to how anyone could call such a trim woman "chubby." I figured at the time that maybe it was some subtle British humor that a mere American like me couldn't understand.
"Shallow Hal" was the opposite - a male character who kept seeing women's physical appearances as manifestations of their inner beauty - or lack thereof.
Might be some interesting watching as you let the concept marinate.

I think I only "liked" this comment before but I did want to add that I've never actually seen either of those (I know, I know, shame on me), but they would be interesting to watch "as research." Or maybe to avoid so that the plot point can remain uninfluenced by the movies. Hmm...

Either way, thanks!

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

I'm late to this party so much of this has probably already been posted, but these are my rules about descriptions.

There is never such a thing as an unbiased reader, so any descriptions you write will be interpreted based on that bias and that interpretation will vary depending upon the age, sex, and personal likes/dislikes of each reader. Don't describe by using numerical sizes for anything unless the character verbalizing the description has a valid reason to know those dimensions. For instance...

A cop might know height and weight of a suspect.
Any character would know their own basic dimensions and could reasonably state those to someone else.
Someone rummaging through the clothing of a character could determine actual size, but never just by a visual examination of the character.

Other than these examples, stick to generic descriptions like tall, short, petite, voluptuous, muscular, chubby, and others that let the reader form his or her own picture. That way, you won't offend quite as many readers.

Relative to clothing sizes, most men have no idea about how women's clothing is sized and most women will tell you that the labeled size doesn't mean much so they have to try on something to know if it will fit. That goes for any clothing from panties and bras to jeans and dresses. As people have gotten larger, clothing manufacturers have altered the actual dimensions of the size labeled on the tag to make people feel better about their size.

This provides a great summary of the points made - so even if much of it was already posted, not only is it very useful to hear the perspective repeated (since that's how consensus can be seen but also new ideas can be found), but also it puts a bow on many of the things that have come up.

So things like: The ladies have just been shopping together, so the FMC does have reason to know those sizes, but I hadn't thought about how using them in the story could offend or otherwise turn off some of the reader base. I'm wondering what you and others think about the idea, though, of including the FMC and perhaps her friends lamenting the inconsistent sizing and how you can never trust those numbers anyway as being relatable. Would that be relatable to men reading the story, though?

 

[ronde]

This provides a great summary of the points made - so even if much of it was already posted, not only is it very useful to hear the perspective repeated (since that's how consensus can be seen but also new ideas can be found), but also it puts a bow on many of the things that have come up.

So things like: The ladies have just been shopping together, so the FMC does have reason to know those sizes, but I hadn't thought about how using them in the story could offend or otherwise turn off some of the reader base. I'm wondering what you and others think about the idea, though, of including the FMC and perhaps her friends lamenting the inconsistent sizing and how you can never trust those numbers anyway as being relatable. Would that be relatable to men reading the story, though?

Men will willingly listen to a woman talking about her size because they're imagining her in their minds. They might not particularly like the body she's describing, even if she's wishing she was different, but they won't b offended.

For me, and I would suspect many readers who want to read about reality rather than some teen-age fantasy, the offense comes when I read some guy saying the hot, slender woman he's never met has 48DDD tits, or a woman saying that the guy she fucked last night had a twelve inch cock that was eight inches thick. Yes, I've read descriptions like that in stories here on Literotica. Stating dimensions like this are just a writer with a very limited knowledge of human anatomy trying to excite a reader.

A woman with a bust size of 48DDD would have an underbreast measurement of 48 inches, so she'd be a really big girl to start with. The DDD would say her breasts add another 6 inches. She'd be wearing a man's size XL shirt. Not really all that inviting to me.

The average vagina is 4 inches deep, so a guy with a cock that long and thick would be uncomfortable at the least and probably painful for most women. I also seriously doubt that very many women keep a tape measure handy and whip it out once the guy is fully erect. Again, not very believable.

 

[jehoram]

You can always expect sober, objective and thoughtful discourses on the diverse array of human body types by someone who employs the phrase "corpulent slabs of lard."

Well, Cecil Adams is prone to hyperbole, as you'll note when you read more of his excellent work.

 

[vanmyers86]

The late, great Karen Carpenter, whom we know died of anorexia nervosa at 32 (way too soon, and leaving so much great music unsung), was always bothered by one mean critic who described her as "the chubby little sister." Even at her heaviest, Karen was anything but chubby.

Indeed.
I still miss her. What a talent!

 

[Auden James]

The late, great Karen Carpenter, whom we know died of anorexia nervosa at 32 (way too soon, and leaving so much great music unsung), was always bothered by one mean critic who described her as "the chubby little sister."

Well, you do not become anorexic for no reason, or do you? However, it seems highly unlikely that one "mean critic" was the reason in that case, for, according to the Carpenters Avenue, the alleged "chubby little sister" review is entirely without any factual basis.

 

[Levorotatory]

But the more you let your readers fill in the gaps, the more invested they become in your story. There was a reason we never found out what was in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. Tarantino wanted the audience to fill it in, make it their own in order to get them vested in the story. It works.

Yes and no. It depends how well the character you are describing matches what the reader wants that character to be. If they are significantly different, then every time you describe another detail that doesn't match what the reader is imagining you push the reader away a little bit. If your vision and the reader's vision are similar, then those details can bring the reader in. Leaving more to the imagination makes your story more generally appealing, while being more descriptive of your characters will be more appreciated by a smaller niche.

A woman with a bust size of 48DDD would have an underbreast measurement of 48 inches, so she'd be a really big girl to start with. The DDD would say her breasts add another 6 inches. She'd be wearing a man's size XL shirt. Not really all that inviting to me.

XL isn't really that big. A 48 inch chest would be a 2XL without the breasts, and a 48DDD (aka 48F) bra would use an 8 inch diameter underwire, so assuming roughly hemispherical shape they would add about 8 inches to her chest circumference, making her shirt size 5XL.

 

[StillStunned]

Yes and no. It depends how well the character you are describing matches what the reader wants that character to be. If they are significantly different, then every time you describe another detail that doesn't match what the reader is imagining you push the reader away a little bit. If your vision and the reader's vision are similar, then those details can bring the reader in. Leaving more to the imagination makes your story more generally appealing, while being more descriptive of your characters will be more appreciated by a smaller niche.

This is a risk. I always recommend describing any features that an observer would notice right away, if they're important to the story. And never add any information later that the observer should have noticed immediately.

 

[SkyBubble]

Indeed.
I still miss her. What a talent!

One of the all-time greats.

Have you heard a new young singer named Tori Holub? I think she's 22 or 23. her Carpenters covers sound eerily like Karen.

Here's one:

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

I know I'm on a dead thread here a little, but I figure folks here might be the best to help me with this question rather than me start a new thread since I've kinda described the situation, right? Comes home from a girl's night, feels bad about self, sex scene = husband reminding wife how beautiful she is until surrenders to agreeing.

There is an element of submission in here because that's the nature of the relationship in this universe (reading the previous pieces isn't required, though, I've built enough information into the story to know the power exchange/caring bondage seen in it is consensual and caring). Does this automatically place it in the BDSM category? Or does the central theme of loving and nurturing, helping bolster the self-esteeem of the FMC make it romance? One of these days, I'll stop overthinking, I swear.

On the bright side - it's typed, it's second part is nearly done being typed, and will be publishable once I've edited both to make them a smooth two part narrative (my first actual two part set of stories where one really is needed for the other).

 

[iwatchus]

First, this thread was barely gone. The wake hadn't even been scheduled yet. Definitely better to resurrect a thread a few days old, although not sure why this one.

This does not ping me as BDSM, although that is not one of my regular categories. I think the readers there expect more than simple power exchange/submission.

Does it end happily? Then Romance sounds right, although it's not clearly that either.

I struggle with some stories that have no obvious home. One of my WIP (my intended PO submission) will end upon Novels&Novellas because it doesn't quite fit in LS (the MC is bi-sexual). But the emotional fit is there because it is a love story between two women.

 

[cw5523729]

There is an element of submission in here because that's the nature of the relationship in this universe (reading the previous pieces isn't required, though, I've built enough information into the story to know the power exchange/caring bondage seen in it is consensual and caring). Does this automatically place it in the BDSM category? Or does the central theme of loving and nurturing, helping bolster the self-esteeem of the FMC make it romance? One of these days, I'll stop overthinking, I swear.

I'd vote no to the BDSM. I think the kind of people searching the BDSM category are going to expect a much heavier level of submission, domination, what have you.

I'm not sure I'd vote romance either without knowing more. I think romance implies more build up than what you've suggested thus far. Maybe erotic couplings?

 

[Noor]

Okay, so I know everyone is looking for the size 2 woman with DDD breasts and all, but I'm trying to figure out the sizes for what folks would consider an attractive, but "average" sized woman. Someone you'd never call fat or too curvy, but you also wouldn't say is a stick thin 5'11" size 2 with breasts so big her back should break either (some person actually tried to make their proportions look like 1980's Barbie and legit ended up with broken bones as a result, you just CAN'T!).


So would it be something like a Size 6 with a C cup? Size 8? B cup? What would you consider "what's wrong with this person for telling this woman that's she's too fat" sized? (That's the plot point I'm writing in a story. Someone's husband is calling her "fat" and telling her to get off the "baby weight" but she's already, like, perfectly good looking just the way she is).

~Sammy

PS I know, as a womanfolk myself I should know this, but I've been a little teapot (short and stout) my whole life, so I'm trying to get a perspective that isn't just "I *wish* I could look that good" and is instead "this is the average good looking when you're NOT comparing yourself to my self esteem issues.

the average size in the us is 16 and the average bra is a 34dd. A majority of women in the us are in a bra that is too small, so it would be a 36D.
Average height is five foot three and a half inches.
Most of the above is due to genetics, and accidents of birth.

 

[Noor]

Sounds like a dating profile. Having been on bumble awhile, most women do not "match" their pics

There was a dating app that used memes rather than photos and bio info for matches. At the time I was playing with it, the actual guys using it were all nice, fairly cute nerds about 35 yrs old. I don’t know if it’s still around. I thought it was an interesting although weird idea and fairly foreign to me because I don’t use memes in my life.

 

[cw5523729]

the average brain is a 34dd.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

First, this thread was barely gone. The wake hadn't even been scheduled yet. Definitely better to resurrect a thread a few days old, although not sure why this one.

Love the way you put this! Mostly, I picked this thread because it was mine and for those who were in on it the first time around, we had already discussed the general beats of the story itself, so it made it a good place to talk about how that story would be classified.

This does not ping me as BDSM, although that is not one of my regular categories. I think the readers there expect more than simple power exchange/submission.

Does it end happily? Then Romance sounds right, although it's not clearly that either.

I struggle with some stories that have no obvious home. One of my WIP (my intended PO submission) will end upon Novels&Novellas because it doesn't quite fit in LS (the MC is bi-sexual). But the emotional fit is there because it is a love story between two women.

See, that's what I was thinking about BDSM too. I mean, there's the D/s element and some bondate but it's not the focus. It's just a natural part of their relationship.

It does have a happy ending. I don't think I've yet written a story that doesn't. Honestly, I don't think I want to? Even my goth poetry inspired by Edgar Allen Poe still ended up with the FMC tormented but happy about it.

I'd vote no to the BDSM. I think the kind of people searching the BDSM category are going to expect a much heavier level of submission, domination, what have you.

Yea - my other story in BDSM definitely has more of that punchiness to it. This definitely doesn't have the same feel by comparison.

I'm not sure I'd vote romance either without knowing more. I think romance implies more build up than what you've suggested thus far. Maybe erotic couplings?

So romance stories are longer? This is clocking in at something like 3500 words, so definitely not long. Here the romance and the sex is mixed, the sex is in service of the loving relationship. So yea, maybe you're right there. I just hear so many people refer to Erotic Couplings as a "catch all if you can't find anywhere else" that I keep wanting to find an anywhere else.

There was a dating app that used memes rather than photos and bio info for matches. At the time I was playing with it, the actual guys using it were all nice, fairly cute nerds about 35 yrs old. I don’t know if it’s still around. I thought it was an interesting although weird idea and fairly foreign to me because I don’t use memes in my life.

This sounds like a ton of fun and a unique taste on a dating app. Find out what sense of humor someone has before you get together? Kinda love it.

 

[Noor]

View attachment 2574302

Lol! Thanks, I’ll correct it. I’m pretty sleepy, up all night with my mom in the er

 

[cw5523729]

So romance stories are longer? This is clocking in at something like 3500 words, so definitely not long. Here the romance and the sex is mixed, the sex is in service of the loving relationship. So yea, maybe you're right there. I just hear so many people refer to Erotic Couplings as a "catch all if you can't find anywhere else" that I keep wanting to find an anywhere else.

Hmmm... I'm not really sure how I'd describe what I expect from the "Romance" category.

My own story being currently published has a lot of romance aspects (lots of misses in dating, build up to finding Mr. Right, romance leading to a happy ending, etc.) and yet I didn't categorize it as romance mostly because I simply felt there was too much sex that over shadows the romance. Lots of fairly hard-core sex with lots of domination/submission/humiliation and as such I did categorize it as BDSM.

In my mind, a story categorized as Romance should have a romantic build up as the primary aspect with the sex being secondary. But exactly how you divvy up that ratio of sex to lovey-dovey, I don't know. Does that automatically make a romance story "long"? No. You can have short romances and long BDSM stories. Does that help? Probably not. So maybe ignore my suggestion.

As for ER being a catch-all - yeah, that's accurate.

 

[cw5523729]

Lol! Thanks, I’ll correct it. I’m pretty sleepy, up all night with my mom in the er

No need to correct it. I, personally, have been accused of having boobs on the brain all the time.

Prayers for your mom

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

hugLol! Thanks, I’ll correct it. I’m pretty sleepy, up all night with my mom in the er

I hope all is well with your mom now. And if not, I hope it will be seen. Sending hugs.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

Hmmm... I'm not really sure how I'd describe what I expect from the "Romance" category.

My own story being currently published has a lot of romance aspects (lots of misses in dating, build up to finding Mr. Right, romance leading to a happy ending, etc.) and yet I didn't categorize it as romance mostly because I simply felt there was too much sex that over shadows the romance. Lots of fairly hard-core sex with lots of domination/submission/humiliation and as such I did categorize it as BDSM.

In my mind, a story categorized as Romance should have a romantic build up as the primary aspect with the sex being secondary. But exactly how you divvy up that ratio of sex to lovey-dovey, I don't know. Does that automatically make a romance story "long"? No. You can have short romances and long BDSM stories. Does that help? Probably not. So maybe ignore my suggestion.

As for EC being a catch-all - yeah, that's accurate.

Actually, I refuse to ignore your suggestion or thoughts. I find your perspective valuable and you're giving great detail and insight into your thought process. There is no right answer here and your arguments are sound even if I end up going in a different direction.

Thank you.

 

[Noor]

I hope all is well with your mom now. And if not, I hope it will be seen. Sending hugs.

Thank you!

 

[Noor]

No need to correct it. I, personally, have been accused of having boobs on the brain all the time.

Prayers for your mom

Thank you!

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

Good luck, and please post a like to your story in this thread when you get it published.

As promised, here's the link to the published story.
Story link: give and take pleasure part 1

This does not ping me as BDSM, although that is not one of my regular categories. I think the readers there expect more than simple power exchange/submission.

I'd vote no to the BDSM. I think the kind of people searching the BDSM category are going to expect a much heavier level of submission, domination, what have you.

Turns out the powers that be decided it was bdsm. They moved it from erotica couplings. Ya live and learn! Going to put part 2 there as well. Should be finished with it next week