The "I don't want to talk about AI" thread, and the new topic is: do I spot some actual literary discussion there?!

[Bramblethorn]

Human skills needed for cat having:

Perception for spotting covert plastic eating.

Also for hearing incipient vomiting. Especially under the bed.

Dex for catching vomit. (My husband dove across the room with his hand out the other day and caught a hairball with masterful precision. I still haven't let him touch me. He hasn't washed it nearly enough.)

Been there, done that. Ew.

 

[StillStunned]

I've learned to grab the nearest piece of paper to catch the puke.

 

[Erozetta]

I've learned to grab the nearest piece of paper to catch the puke.

Nearest paper is usually in the printer and her vomit is much quicker than we can retrieve it from the tray. Yesterday my husband threw his sweatshirt under her to catch it. She turned to vomit on the tile, got upset, then ran under the bed to finish.

My girl is currently entranced by leaves falling onto our balcony.

 

[Bamagan]

I was experimenting with trying to adapt 'negative space art' into writing. That phrase may be interpreted in various ways, but in the art class I was thinking of, the idea was to capture the shape of an object by drawing/painting the 'empty' space around it. How can that be rendered in text or verse? Kind of a "tell me without telling me" situation. I'm still probing the void, but I figured I might mention it to see if the concept provokes anyone else. Might be an interesting writing exercise for some.

For context, the idea came to me while I was trying to write a philosophical conversation between characters discussing how being part of a community 'compresses' people into 'shapes' that can fit (more or less) into the whole, and how being removed from that pressure can prompt them to develop in strange ways as their nature seeks to fill the social vacuum.

 

[NuclearFairy]

I was experimenting with trying to adapt 'negative space art' into writing. That phrase may be interpreted in various ways, but in the art class I was thinking of, the idea was to capture the shape of an object by drawing/painting the 'empty' space around it. How can that be rendered in text or verse? Kind of a "tell me without telling me" situation. I'm still probing the void, but I figured I might mention it to see if the concept provokes anyone else. Might be an interesting writing exercise for some.

For context, the idea came to me while I was trying to write a philosophical conversation between characters discussing how being part of a community 'compresses' people into 'shapes' that can fit (more or less) into the whole, and how being removed from that pressure can prompt them to develop in strange ways as their nature seeks to fill the social vacuum.

We need more reactions, cause I have nothing else to add.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Squirrels climb better than cats. And they're not so stupid as to get stuck up there, too afraid to climb down.

 

[Statius]

I was experimenting with trying to adapt 'negative space art' into writing. That phrase may be interpreted in various ways, but in the art class I was thinking of, the idea was to capture the shape of an object by drawing/painting the 'empty' space around it. How can that be rendered in text or verse? Kind of a "tell me without telling me" situation. I'm still probing the void, but I figured I might mention it to see if the concept provokes anyone else. Might be an interesting writing exercise for some.

For context, the idea came to me while I was trying to write a philosophical conversation between characters discussing how being part of a community 'compresses' people into 'shapes' that can fit (more or less) into the whole, and how being removed from that pressure can prompt them to develop in strange ways as their nature seeks to fill the social vacuum.

As fascinating as this is, it is well beyond my abilities as a writer.

 

[Bamagan]

As fascinating as this is, it is well beyond my abilities as a writer.

Mine too, at least for now. But it's like a scab in my mind, one I can't stop futzing with.

 

[Statius]

Keep picking at that scab! I bet something interesting/ exciting will come of it, even if it's not your original intention.

 

[NuclearFairy]

That's how you get scars and infections.

 

[Bamagan]

Keep picking at that scab! I bet something interesting/ exciting will come of it, even if it's not your original intention.

Cognitive infection is exciting, I guess.

 

[Statius]

That's how you get scars and infections.

True! But we are talking about a brain scan and since we're all already scarred psychologically, what's one more?

 

[StillStunned]

I was experimenting with trying to adapt 'negative space art' into writing. That phrase may be interpreted in various ways, but in the art class I was thinking of, the idea was to capture the shape of an object by drawing/painting the 'empty' space around it. How can that be rendered in text or verse? Kind of a "tell me without telling me" situation. I'm still probing the void, but I figured I might mention it to see if the concept provokes anyone else. Might be an interesting writing exercise for some.

For context, the idea came to me while I was trying to write a philosophical conversation between characters discussing how being part of a community 'compresses' people into 'shapes' that can fit (more or less) into the whole, and how being removed from that pressure can prompt them to develop in strange ways as their nature seeks to fill the social vacuum.

Off the top of my head, there are probably a couple of ways to do this.

The first would be to provide information without explaining it. For example, in one of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy shows/books, Ford meets Zaphod again after a long time, and Zaphod says, "Put it there! Put it there! Put it there! Put it there!", implying that he now has four hands (and arms) instead of his previous three.

Another is to use language and words to break the flow. One example I've used in discussions here a few times is "then":

"How did you know?" she asked. Then: "Of course. The bottle opener."

I use this to shorthand a break, a brief moment of reflection and realisation, or possibly a change of heart.

But you're a master of prose, you could do more. If your prose is smooth and rhythmic, any break in that rhythm, or any consonant that breaks the flow, will draw the reader's attention to that space. Like the opening line of Keats's "The Eve of St. Agnes":

St. Agnes' Eve - Ah, bitter chill it was!

The break there, right at the very start of the poem, does more with an em dash than the poet could have done with three lines. Or "Out, out, brief candle", from Macbeth's soliloquy, which interrupts the flow with successive stressed syllables and leaves you slightly breathless.

This is all pretty vague, and I don't know if it's what you meant. But it might be a place to start.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I was experimenting with trying to adapt 'negative space art' into writing. That phrase may be interpreted in various ways, but in the art class I was thinking of, the idea was to capture the shape of an object by drawing/painting the 'empty' space around it. How can that be rendered in text or verse? Kind of a "tell me without telling me" situation. I'm still probing the void, but I figured I might mention it to see if the concept provokes anyone else. Might be an interesting writing exercise for some.

For context, the idea came to me while I was trying to write a philosophical conversation between characters discussing how being part of a community 'compresses' people into 'shapes' that can fit (more or less) into the whole, and how being removed from that pressure can prompt them to develop in strange ways as their nature seeks to fill the social vacuum.

What about the Lovecraftian style where something (usually in HPL's case something horrific) is described mostly indirectly, by hints and by people's reaction to it? Does that count as "negative space" here?

My current work in progresspause involves a narrator who's been damaged by seeing her brother die in an accident, and one of the things I've been toying with is the idea of never directly saying what the accident was (her self-defense mechanism, since she's trying not to relive it) but just letting readers figure it out, or not, from the way she reacts to certain things. I don't know whether it'll make the final cut but that seems similar to what you're discussing.

 

[Trionyx]

My current work in progresspause involves a narrator who's been damaged byseeing her brother die in an accident, and one of the things I've been toying with is the idea of never directly saying what the accident was (her self-defense mechanism, since she's trying not to relive it) but just letting readers figure it out, or not, from the way she reacts to certain things. I don't know whether it'll make the final cut but that seems similar to what you're discussing.

Sounds interesting. I look forward to it.

 

[Bamagan]

The first would be to provide information without explaining it. For example, in one of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy shows/books, Ford meets Zaphod again after a long time, and Zaphod says, "Put it there! Put it there! Put it there! Put it there!", implying that he now has four hands (and arms) instead of his previous three.

What about the Lovecraftian style where something (usually in HPL's case something horrific) is described mostly indirectly, by hints and by people's reaction to it? Does that count as "negative space" here?

My current work in progresspause involves a narrator who's been damaged by seeing her brother die in an accident, and one of the things I've been toying with is the idea of never directly saying what the accident was (her self-defense mechanism, since she's trying not to relive it) but just letting readers figure it out, or not, from the way she reacts to certain things. I don't know whether it'll make the final cut but that seems similar to what you're discussing.

I think these examples are basically what I meant, and upon reflection I believe they're more common than I initially realized. Many of us know more about our characters than we put down in writing, but there are hints and clues to suggest things about their pasts or their lives outside the main narrative. To cite my own example, there was a subplot that I excised from one of my more recent stories, about the POV character being estranged from her parents when she leaves town, but after the father has a nearly fatal heart attack they manage to mostly reconcile. But it distracted from the principal relationship (and the resulting anal sex), so the whole family drama is only hinted at, because the main character has her eyes locked on the (booty) prize (or, to be less crass, she's telling the story of how she got to live out her fantasy with her straight-girl crush, and the story pretty much focuses on just their interactions, sexual or otherwise).
Still, it kind of feels like beginner level stuff.

 

[Euphony]

We seem to be back to cats

 

[NuclearFairy]

@Bamagan I think, I might've actually done that to some extent with my latest story. The painting with negative space thing that is.

The rough life she's lived, the bad decisions she's made, to get to the point that she was running willingly towards a flaming skeleton. Were mostly not stated, but alluded to. I did it because, I wanted it to make sense as to why she was doing this crazy thing, why she was attracted to such a being, but I also didn't want to get bogged down in her back story. Because ya know, 2k word stroker. It wasn't too hard to do, but I also didn't do it on purpose, and I'm not sure how well I did...

But anyways, I think you should give it a shot, even if your first effort is so terrible that you delete it. You won't get better at something until you practice it.

 

[Statius]

@Bamagan I think, I might've actually done that to some extent with my latest story. The painting with negative space thing that is.

The rough life she's lived, the bad decisions she's made, to get to the point that she was running willingly towards a flaming skeleton. Were mostly not stated, but alluded to. I did it because, I wanted it to make sense as to why she was doing this crazy thing, why she was attracted to such a being, but I also didn't want to get bogged down in her back story. Because ya know, 2k word stroker. It wasn't too hard to do, but I also didn't do it on purpose, and I'm not sure how well I did...

But anyways, I think you should give it a shot, even if your first effort is so terrible that you delete it. You won't get better at something until you practice it.

You did it well, I assure you.

 

[Bamagan]

@Bamagan I think, I might've actually done that to some extent with my latest story. The painting with negative space thing that is.

The rough life she's lived, the bad decisions she's made, to get to the point that she was running willingly towards a flaming skeleton. Were mostly not stated, but alluded to. I did it because, I wanted it to make sense as to why she was doing this crazy thing, why she was attracted to such a being, but I also didn't want to get bogged down in her back story. Because ya know, 2k word stroker. It wasn't too hard to do, but I also didn't do it on purpose, and I'm not sure how well I did...

But anyways, I think you should give it a shot, even if your first effort is so terrible that you delete it. You won't get better at something until you practice it.

Yes, I think many of us do the negative space thing more often than we realize, at least in fairly rudimentary ways. Or that's what I'm starting to believe, anyway, since allusions certainly seem to be a good literary analogy to the artistic practice.
I'm now thinking of them in terms of those pictures where you can interpret them in two ways, depending on how you look at the colors. I tried without success to find a link, but there's one where some people see a fancy goblet, while others see two faces in profile staring at each other. Eventually, most people can see both.
The 'master class' equivalent to that analogy might be one of those 3D images where, if you stare at them just right, you see a shape that sits 'above' or 'below' the geometric patterns.

Edit: I discovered it's called the 'Rubin Vase' finally.

 

[Bamagan]

Also, sorry @StillStunned for hijacking this thread and turning it into a discussion on writing. It feels very uncomfortable for me to be railing a thread, I assure you.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Yes, I think many of us do the negative space thing more often than we realize, at least in fairly rudimentary ways. Or that's what I'm starting to believe, anyway, since allusions certainly seem to be a good literary analogy to the artistic practice.
I'm now thinking of them in terms of those pictures where you can interpret them in two ways, depending on how you look at the colors. I tried without success to find a link, but there's one where some people see a fancy goblet, while others see two faces in profile staring at each other. Eventually, most people can see both.
The 'master class' equivalent to that analogy might be one of those 3D images where, if you stare at them just right, you see a shape that sits 'above' or 'below' the geometric patterns.

Edit: I discovered it's called the 'Rubin Vase' finally.
View attachment 2572124

Oh I love those pictures! I used to have a book full Rubin Vase pictures when I was a child. My favorite was the one of the old ladies whose hair also made the vase look like it had flowers in it.

But yeah, I think it's actually a good analogy for it.

 

[StillStunned]

Also, sorry @StillStunned for hijacking this thread and turning it into a discussion on writing. It feels very uncomfortable for me to be railing a thread, I assure you.

I'll forgive it, just this once. Anything goes, as long as it's not about AI.

 

[Bamagan]

Yes, I think many of us do the negative space thing more often than we realize, at least in fairly rudimentary ways. Or that's what I'm starting to believe, anyway, since allusions certainly seem to be a good literary analogy to the artistic practice.
I'm now thinking of them in terms of those pictures where you can interpret them in two ways, depending on how you look at the colors. I tried without success to find a link, but there's one where some people see a fancy goblet, while others see two faces in profile staring at each other. Eventually, most people can see both.
The 'master class' equivalent to that analogy might be one of those 3D images where, if you stare at them just right, you see a shape that sits 'above' or 'below' the geometric patterns.

Edit: I discovered it's called the 'Rubin Vase' finally.
View attachment 2572124

To carry on from this idea, I think I may have been striving all along for the ability to tell two stories at once. To wit, I'm writing about sex acts, but I want to do so in a way where an attentive reader will have discovered that 'Rubin vase' of the character's larger lives by the time the last genital fluids have been tidied up.
That's as much self-reflection as I can stomach for now! Carry on, ladies and gentlemen and honorable others.

 

[StillStunned]

To carry on from this idea, I think I may have been striving all along for the ability to tell two stories at once. To wit, I'm writing about sex acts, but I want to do so in a way where an attentive reader will have discovered that 'Rubin vase' of the character's larger lives by the time the last genital fluids have been tidied up.
That's as much self-reflection as I can stomach for now! Carry on, ladies and gentlemen and honorable others.

I'm not letting you get away from this so easily!

My story Red Hot is told from the POV of Daz, a former boyband heart throb who meets a sexy woman who used to be a fan. She seduces him over the course of a series of meetings, taking things further each time.

Several readers commented that they'd like to know more about the woman, Myrna. In my head, her story already exists: after an upheaval in her life (divorce or separation) she's determined to play by her own rules. She was an awkward teen, and she's just beginning to realise that as a grown woman she's sexy and desirable, and she can get what she wants. But she does things at her own pace as she forces herself to adjust to this liberating mentality.

None of that is mentioned in the story, and I'm not sure all of it was crystalised in my mind when I was writing. But that's Myrna's tale, and there in the negative spaces in the story. The encounters are as much Myrna's tale as they are Daz's.