Charlie Kirk's legacy will be his attempting another bad-faith argument at the moment he was shot

[dmallord]

I see your edit. Thank you.

So the first quote you gave, how does that relate to “bad faith questioning?” That’s my disconnect.

When you read the article, you should be able to see it well stated there. Note in it that Kirk's team edited out the good rebuttal to his and left only his one-sided takes. It's bad faith questioning just as Trump's bad faith governance.

 

[Bn2f]

I see your edit. Thank you.

So the first quote you gave, how does that relate to “bad faith questioning?” That’s my disconnect.

The disconnect is that Charlie Kirk's last words were him talking about gun rights.
It's a bit frustrating, as I stated to you before, that over a month since his death that a member has to be feeding this information to you.
Do you see now why others are rolling their eyes in frustration reading all this?

 

[Bn2f]

I see your edit. Thank you.

So the first quote you gave, how does that relate to “bad faith questioning?” That’s my disconnect.

DMallord is here and I will again kindly defer you over to him and his patience. Good nite.

 

[dmallord]

@AnomolyLady

If you are unable to connect the dots from the article, then consider that bad faith questioning isn’t about asking — it’s about pretending not to understand what’s right in front of you. I gave an example of Kirk using bad-faith rhetoric: calling to “roll in the tanks” and “federalize D.C.” to solve crime. He knew that it was unconstitutional and impossible, but said it anyway to provoke outrage, not debate. That’s the very definition of bad faith — framing a serious issue with an intentionally dishonest, performative solution.

If this doesn't make your connection, then I am unable to connect the dots further.

Kirk made a living from this kind of work. He built a whole company around touring colleges, funded by right-wing groups, and he was quite successful. Was it wrong? No, not more than hosting a bad podcast that spreads extremist views. That's legal too.

Did Kirk accomplish something meaningful for the students he met? His followers and staff say he did. Trump and his sons claim they believe he did. When you try to assess what it truly did for students on campuses, that's questionable. He was like a leaf in the wind, drifting away after a few days and onto the next event. How many one-time encounters truly made a difference in students' lives? Most likely, they didn't impact them much at all. He wasn't as charismatic as Billy Graham, whose tours inspired many. No, Kirk's actions sold merch and fed on publicity gimmicks with precisely the same effect as a profit-driven media event. That's how he earned his living.

Unfortunately, perhaps ironically, he died by a means he had spoken of: 'unfortunately, a few may have to die so we have the right to bear arms.'

 

[Bn2f]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
YEAH! That's what I said but he said much weller! Much wordier and bestest and with extra covfefe!

 

[Bn2f]

@AnomolyLady

If you are unable to connect the dots from the article, then consider that bad faith questioning isn’t about asking — it’s about pretending not to understand what’s right in front of you. I gave an example of Kirk using bad-faith rhetoric: calling to “roll in the tanks” and “federalize D.C.” to solve crime. He knew that it was unconstitutional and impossible, but said it anyway to provoke outrage, not debate. That’s the very definition of bad faith — framing a serious issue with an intentionally dishonest, performative solution.

If this doesn't make your connection, then I am unable to connect the dots further.

Kirk made a living from this kind of work. He built a whole company around touring colleges, funded by right-wing groups, and he was quite successful. Was it wrong? No, not more than hosting a bad podcast that spreads extremist views. That's legal too.

Did Kirk accomplish something meaningful for the students he met? His followers and staff say he did. Trump and his sons claim they believe he did. When you try to assess what it truly did for students on campuses, that's questionable. He was like a leaf in the wind, drifting away after a few days and onto the next event. How many one-time encounters truly made a difference in students' lives? Most likely, they didn't impact them much at all. He wasn't as charismatic as Billy Graham, whose tours inspired many. No, Kirk's actions sold merch and fed on publicity gimmicks with precisely the same effect as a profit-driven media event. That's how he earned his living.

Unfortunately, perhaps ironically, he died by a means he had spoken of: 'unfortunately, a few may have to die so we have the right to bear arms.'

Seriously, you nailed it. People ignore the grift that accompanied Kirk's Kampus Kircus.
And, IMO, he always gave off a creepy vibe going out of his way to avoid debate challenges from Cenk Uygur and others to signal out young adults in college rather than say - their history/political tenured professors. And, lastly, whether he was debating college students in the UK, here in the US or on Jubilee - he routinely got his 100 mph moving words wrapped in a tidy bow and handed back to him.

 

[Bray123]

1. Can you define 'bad faith'?
2. Bad faith never killed anyone, I have plenty of it and stare at it hard and it never killed me. It's only when the insane use it that it becomes dangerous but it's against the Constitution to have processes to prevent the insane from having access.

 

[LeahWill]

Apropos of absolutely nothing, so apologies in advance, but I was shocked and absolutely horrified when I heard on the radio here in the UK that he had been shot. It actually upset me in a very personal way. Truly.

But then I had never heard of Charlie Kirk and in all honestly I thought it had been announced that someone had shot William Shatner.

"WHY??!!! He's Canadian..."

 

[Bn2f]

Apropos of absolutely nothing, so apologies in advance, but I was shocked and absolutely horrified when I heard on the radio here in the UK that he had been shot. It actually upset me in a very personal way. Truly.

But then I had never heard of Charlie Kirk and in all honestly thought it had been announced that someone had shot William Shatner.

Oh! No, no, no, no, no, no my dear!
You Brits don't get to walk away from this unscathed!
WE certainly do blame Malcolm McDowell for killing off our beloved Captain Kirk in Star Trek Generations!

(Canada??? That's blasphemy! James Tiberius Kirk was born in Iowa!)

 

[LeahWill]

Oh! No, no, no, no, no, no my dear!
You Brits don't get to walk away from this unscathed!
WE certainly do blame Malcolm McDowell for killing off our beloved Captain Kirk in Star Trek Generations!

It is how he would have wanted to go.

And to be fair MM had a very troubled upbringing, and has a 'bit of history' with the shooting and killing stuff, as documented in the biopic 'If'

 

[Bn2f]

It is how he would have wanted to go.

And to be fair MM had a very troubled upbringing, and has a 'bit of history' with the shooting and killing stuff, as documented in the biopic 'If'

Ooooooh, I will look that up and try to watch! Ty.

 

[LeahWill]

Oh! No, no, no, no, no, no my dear!
You Brits don't get to walk away from this unscathed!
WE certainly do blame Malcolm McDowell for killing off our beloved Captain Kirk in Star Trek Generations!

(Canada??? That's blasphemy! James Tiberius Kirk was born in Iowa!)

"(Canada??? That's blasphemy! James Tiberius Kirk was born in Iowa!)"

My American history / geography is a little shaky. Did you buy it from Canada after he was born? Invade....?

 

[Bn2f]

As the remnants of the sperm of a US infantryman/drill sergeant, I never want to see the US military in any form of aggression.
But... I will gladly take part in the long standing American tradition of stealing the best from another nation and calling it our own.
The Beatles? Nothing until they reached America.
Shatner? Shania? Neil Young? Celine? As American as apple pie!

 

[CuriousJInLA]

Kirk’s legacy in death is far more remarkable than his legacy in life. I I don’t mean to diminish his impact. I loathed the guy but it’s clear that he was a adept tactician when it came to engagement, and he certainly moved the needle.

But the reactions and political maneuvering, attempting to capitalize on his death, have been more far-reaching and extreme than his lifetime of work

 

[CuriousJInLA]

As the remnants of the sperm of a US infantryman/drill sergeant, I never want to see the US military in any form of aggression.
But... I will gladly take part in the long standing American tradition of stealing the best from another nation and calling it our own.
The Beatles? Nothing until they reached America.
Shatner? Shania? Neil Young? Celine? As American as apple pie!

I usually agree with you but Beatles still had 3 #1 singles before breaking in America. And by that trajectory they’d have continued to be successful in the UK and Commonwealth countries.

I’d suggest that America’s greatest impact on the Beatles was our country, rock and roll, pop, Motown, blues, show tunes, that inspired them to become the greatest band of all time

 

[Bn2f]

Kirk’s legacy in death is far more remarkable than his legacy in life. I I don’t mean to diminish his impact. I loathed the guy but it’s clear that he was a adept tactician when it came to engagement, and he certainly moved the needle.

But the reactions and political maneuvering, attempting to capitalize on his death, have been more far-reaching and extreme than his lifetime of work

For a split second, I thought we were still talking about Captain Kirk! And, being somewhat a trekkie - I was gonna ask you where the hell you get off criticizing the Kobayashi Maru Test?

 

[CuriousJInLA]

For a split second, I thought we were still talking about Captain Kirk! And, being somewhat a trekkie - I was gonna ask you where the hell you get off criticizing the Kobayashi Maru Test?

My dad was a Trekkie. Didn’t take with me

 

[Bn2f]

I usually agree with you but Beatles still had 3 #1 singles before breaking in America. And by that trajectory they’d have continued to be successful in the UK and Commonwealth countries.

I’d suggest that America’s greatest impact on the Beatles was our country, rock and roll, pop, Motown, blues, show tunes, that inspired them to become the greatest band of all time

"Usually"????
You "usually" agree with me? How dare you, sir!

 

[CuriousJInLA]

"Usually"????
You "usually" agree with me? How dare you, sir!

Take the compliment

 

[Bn2f]

I usually agree with you but Beatles still had 3 #1 singles before breaking in America. And by that trajectory they’d have continued to be successful in the UK and Commonwealth countries.

I’d suggest that America’s greatest impact on the Beatles was our country, rock and roll, pop, Motown, blues, show tunes, that inspired them to become the greatest band of all time

It is hard to argue with you on this.
I too agree that The Beatles are the greatest, never to be surpassed, no matter what genre or metric you compare them to.
They were students of music and enhanced upon the styles of American music that they admired rather than blatantly steal.

 

[LeahWill]

As the remnants of the sperm of a US infantryman/drill sergeant, I never want to see the US military in any form of aggression.
But... I will gladly take part in the long standing American tradition of stealing the best from another nation and calling it our own.
The Beatles? Nothing until they reached America.
Shatner? Shania? Neil Young? Celine? As American as apple pie!

"The Beatles? Nothing until they reached America."

If my mother ever heard that.... Where's my tin helmet.

I take it you have never seen the photographs of the airport WHEN THEY FIRST ARRIVED in the mighty USA.

Or the viewing figures for their FIRST EVER appearance on the mighty US TV

Yep they were unknowns until they reached you....

 

[Bn2f]

Kirk’s legacy in death is far more remarkable than his legacy in life. I I don’t mean to diminish his impact. I loathed the guy but it’s clear that he was a adept tactician when it came to engagement, and he certainly moved the needle.

But the reactions and political maneuvering, attempting to capitalize on his death, have been more far-reaching and extreme than his lifetime of work

Sooooooo... I don't know how to criticize this fairly. I mean, I don't disagree with you.
He had a vision for TPUSA and it appears, in his death, to be on it's way to achieving a lot of those goals that he wanted for it.
Influencing colleges, politicians, and discourse in media.
Did you see a proposal in Florida for a street on ALL public colleges to be named for him? Or whatever other crazy plans for honoring him your local and state congress person can come up with? You and I know that this is Christian nationalism seeing an opportunity to indoctrinate itself even more into society and I do not like these opportunists at all.

 

[Bn2f]

"The Beatles? Nothing until they reached America."

If my mother ever heard that.... Where's my tin helmet.

I take it you have never seen the photographs of the airport WHEN THEY FIRST ARRIVED in the mighty USA.

Or the viewing figures for their FIRST EVER appearance on the mighty US TV

Yep they were unknowns until they reached you....

Well, LeahWill, if that even is your name at all - you're lucky that I like you!
Otherwise I would say you're not proper Queen's British at all!
How dare you call your mum mother and not mum?!!!

 

[CuriousJInLA]

Sooooooo... I don't know how to criticize this fairly. I mean, I don't disagree with you.
He had a vision for TPUSA and it appears, in his death, to be on it's way to achieving a lot of those goals that he wanted for it.
Influencing colleges, politicians, and discourse in media.
Did you see a proposal in Florida for a street on all public colleges to be named for him? Or whatever other crazy plans for honoring him your local and state congress person can come up with? You and I know that this is Christian nationalism seeing an opportunity to indoctrinate itself even more into society and I do not like these opportunists at all.

Sure we’re on the same page. Perhaps it’s impossible to separate the before and after as they’re inextricably linked. Perhaps his death catalyzed his horrid rhetoric into a more widespread action

 

[YDB95]

"The Beatles? Nothing until they reached America."

If my mother ever heard that.... Where's my tin helmet.

I take it you have never seen the photographs of the airport WHEN THEY FIRST ARRIVED in the mighty USA.

Or the viewing figures for their FIRST EVER appearance on the mighty US TV

Yep they were unknowns until they reached you....

They were indeed unknown in the US until just a few weeks before their trip to New York. Their first US single released under their own name was so high priority with the label that they misspelled their name, Beattles, on the record. But just as the extremely harsh winter of 1962-63 is credited with making them stars at home, the JFK assassination set the stage in the US. In both cases, people were depressed and looking for something to cheer them up - and they found it.

But yes, to call them "nothing until they reached America" is absurd.