For Those Who Might Be Wondering Why We Might Be In Ukraine

Ukraine’s Flamingo missiles destroy Russian oil refineries


Philip Ingram highlights Ukraine’s strategic missile strikes on Russian refineries, creating economic strain and exposing vulnerabilities in Russia’s war machine.

 
Russia's Donetsk Line CRACKS

Across Europe, Russian spy networks are being dismantled. Security services in Germany, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and the United Kingdom expose Moscow’s agents, shut courier cells, and cut cash and equipment pipelines. Germany files charges against dual citizens scouting U.S. bases; Poland detains a rail and arson group; Latvia and Lithuania disrupt parcel bomb routes; UK courts jail a six person ring with new arrests in Essex. These counterintelligence operations fracture Russia’s external logistics, slow procurement, and force the Kremlin to spend resources at home instead of exporting sabotage.

On the frontline, Ukraine advances in Donetsk along the Pokrovsk to Ocheretyne axis. Liberated villages and gains of roughly 3 to 7 kilometers (2 to 4 miles) flip who fires first, open counter battery windows, and push Russian ammunition and fuel farther from the line. In total, more than 160 square kilometers (62 square miles) return to Ukrainian control. Trenches are abandoned under sustained artillery pressure, while new Ukrainian positions create cleaner angles on supply corridors. The effect is cumulative: slower resupply, longer rotations, and a fading Russian tempo across the sector.

Inside Russia, the energy war compounds the pressure. The Primorsk oil terminal halts loadings; the Kirishi refinery, about 355,000 barrels per day, reduces capacity; fires and shutdowns are recorded from Volgograd to Bashkortostan. Each outage widens the Urals discount, raises freight and war risk insurance, and shrinks budget inflows. Tankers queue, throughput falls, and short range air defenses are pulled from trenches to guard refineries and depots, thinning the very line meant to hold ground.

Together, these three fronts squeeze Moscow. Fewer shells, fewer trucks, and fewer replacements reach the line. Logistics, energy, and battlefield dynamics are moving in the same direction. As supply chains tighten and revenues fall, Russia’s costs rise, its options shrink, and Ukraine’s momentum grows.

CHAPTERS:
0:00 – Intro: Russia Under Pressure
1:05 – Europe Cracks Russian Spy Rings
3:10 – Ukraine Gains Ground in Donetsk
5:25 – Russian Oil Terminals in Flames
7:40 – Sanctions and Shrinking Revenues
9:15 – Russia Weakens on Three Fronts
11:05 – Ukraine Presses the Initiative
12:30 – Conclusion: Collapse Accelerates

 
3 Russian Mi-8 helicopters, radar station destroyed in occupied Crimea, Ukraine's HUR says

Ukraine's military intelligence (HUR) destroyed three Russian Mi-8 helicopters and a radar station in occupied Crimea, the agency reported on Sept. 21. "The Russian invaders' air fleet in the temporarily occupied Crimea has been reduced again as a result of successful combat operations," HUR wrote on Telegram.

The Mi-8 is a medium-lift helicopter widely used by Russia for transport, reconnaissance, and combat support. It can carry troops and equipment or be outfitted as a gunship. The radar destroyed was identified as the 55Zh6U Nebo-U, a mobile early-warning system capable of detecting stealth aircraft and cruise missiles at long ranges.

The agency did not disclose the exact location of the strike.

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine...stroys-3-russian-helicopters-radar-in-crimea/

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Ukraine has a massive new sea drone, could threaten Russia's Crimean Bridge

Ukraine unveiled its TOLOKA underwater drone at the Defense Tech Valley 2025 exhibition in Lviv, Ukrainian military news site Militarnyi reported on Sept. 19. Although the platform has been known for about a year, it has only now been publicly displayed. The system features three variants capable of striking targets up to 2,000 kilometers (1,240 miles) away. The compact TLK-150 is designed for stealth operations just below the surface, using electric propulsion to evade detection and penetrate Russian defenses, according to Defense Express.

Larger models include the TLK-400, with a range of 1,200 kilometers (745 miles) and a 500-kilogram payload, and the TLK-1000, which measures up to 12 meters, carries 5,000 kilograms, and can reach targets up to 2,000 kilometers (1,240 miles).

The unveiling comes amid Kyiv's focus on precision strikes against Russian infrastructure. In June, the Security Service of Ukraine carried out its third attack on the Crimean Bridge, a critical supply and transport route for Russian forces to the occupied Ukrainian territories. While the exact cause of damage to the bridge's underwater supports remains unclear, some defense experts speculate that the TOLOKA drone may have played a role.

Those are some BIG warheads.

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-showcases-underwater-drones-with-2-000-km-strike-capability/

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Ukrainian drones devastate Russian ammunition depots across Pokrovsk direction


Ukrainian forces have launched a systematic campaign targeting Russian ammunition depots from Donetsk city to the front lines at Pokrovsk, creating critical shortages that are allowing Ukrainian units to exploit weaknesses and seize tactical initiative across the direction. With shortages of ammunition for Russian soldiers fighting on the contact line, Ukrainian units are able to expertly exploit these weaknesses and take the initiative. Ukrainian strikes have crippled Russian supplies of weapons in the Pokrovsk direction with multiple confirmed hits against key ammunition depots throughout the region.

In Donetsk, a series of massive explosions rocked the city after Ukrainian long-range drones penetrated Russian defenses. Air defense systems were active beforehand, with smoke trails visible in the sky, but they failed to intercept the incoming strikes. Footage from Russian soldiers captured the true scale of the destruction, with thick black smoke rising above a facility, followed by a colossal explosion that sent shockwaves through the area, knocking down the soldier who was filming. Secondary blasts continued for hours, clear evidence of hundreds of tons of ammunition igniting and cooking off. In at least two different parts of Donetsk, separate plumes of smoke confirmed that multiple storage sites had been struck, leaving no doubt that Ukrainian intelligence and precision targeting had hit their mark.

Salidov was not spared either, and another geolocated video, taken by Russian personnel, showed a local base and warehouse engulfed in flames, with ammunition exploding uncontrollably. In the background, a shaken soldier muttered that hell has broken loose, summing up the chaos that unfolded as the depot erupted. Salidov has long been used as a central logistics hub due to its size and relative concealment opportunities for Russian soldiers in the Pokrovsk direction. Now it has become a death trap for Russian stockpiles due to its proximity to the front line of around 20 km. Ukrainian forces struck precisely, underscoring that there are no secure places in the Pokrovsk rear, despite the Russian command believing they had relative safety due to the available buildings.

The Donetsk-Yasinovato-Khorlivka rail triangle, combined with the Avdiivka-Oharetina road corridor, has always been the lifeline for Russia’s offensive toward Pokrovsk. By hitting depots within this network, Ukrainian units force Russia to disperse munitions into smaller caches and rely on last-minute convoys that are far easier to intercept. With Salidov now burning, Russia has no safe ammunition hub south of Pokrovsk, meaning supplies must take longer, more fuel-intensive roads, often through poor road conditions, and exposed to drones and artillery. Every strike on Yasinovato or Donetsk is immediately felt on the front lines of the Donetsk-Khorlivka rail triangle. Due to immediate rationing of shells, weaker counter-battery fire, along with slower and less coordinated assaults.

Ukrainian drones, which are constantly scanning the area, direct fire on convoys, repair depots, and ammunition caches, ensuring that Russia’s logistic flow remains fragile as supplies are rerouted. This vulnerability directly translates into opportunities for the Ukrainians on the battlefield. When Russian units cannot sustain sufficient fire support, Ukrainian troops gain windows to rotate, reinforce, or counter-attack with less risk. Analysts estimate that the recent strikes in Donetsk alone destroyed several hundred tons of shells, a loss that cannot be quickly replenished, given Russia’s already stretched industrial base and vulnerable supply chain.

These disruptions mirror earlier Ukrainian successes on Pokrovsk’s southern flank during the spring and summer, where Russian forces were starved of not only ammunition, but even food and water. water, causing a collapse after weeks of futile assaults. Now on the northeastern flank near Dobropillia, Russian units find themselves in the same position, and every passing day without resupply weakens their foothold and makes them easier prey for Ukrainian counterattacks.

Strategic assessment

Overall, the recent strikes on Donetsk and Selidov are not isolated incidents, but part of a sustained Ukrainian campaign. The Ukrainian tactic is simple but brutally effective – destroy the depots, force dispersal, harass convoys and let the front lines dry out. Even when Russian forces managed to achieve a breakthrough towards Dobropillia, these gains collapsed within days because their logistics network could not sustain them. Ukrainian defenders, reinforced and well-supplied, pushed back, cleared villages and reclaimed swathes of territory, while Russian soldiers were left undersupplied, demoralized, and vulnerable.

With every ammunition depot destroyed, the balance shifts further in favor of the Ukrainians and allows them to strike back.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/09...ts-across-pokrovsk-direction/#google_vignette
 

Ukraine’s Flamingo missiles destroy Russian oil refineries


Philip Ingram highlights Ukraine’s strategic missile strikes on Russian refineries, creating economic strain and exposing vulnerabilities in Russia’s war machine.


Witkoff and Volker - two fucking idiots when it comes to Ukraine - Russia (Witkoff is a fucking idiot; full stop).

Volker seems to believe that it’s JUST Russia against Ukraine & the west, when China (and Iran, North Korea, South American actors, and maybe even India, etc, now) is OBVIOUSLY standing up Russia’s war effort with drone parts, soldiers, economic cooperation, etc (I would also submit that even the United States under this traitorous administration is a threat to Ukraine & the west).

Ukraine is faaaaar from “out of the woods” when it comes to its permanent integration with the west.

Also:

Winter is coming, and Russia seems determined to up its large scale drone attack game - which could have some unforeseen consequences on the internal workings of Ukraine if those drones significantly degrade power supplies, etc (Russian drones are also scoring their own successes on the frontlines and Ukrainian supply efforts).

Ironically, the U.S. could have decisively tipped the scales in Ukraine’s (and the west’s) favor by being more proactive in the defense of Ukraine, but of course, Putin’s orange puppet was NEVER going to allow that to happen.

👎

🤬

We. Told. Them. So.

🌷
 
Witkoff and Volker - two fucking idiots when it comes to Ukraine - Russia (Witkoff is a fucking idiot; full stop).

Volker seems to believe that it’s JUST Russia against Ukraine & the west, when China (and Iran, North Korea, South American actors, and maybe even India, etc, now) is OBVIOUSLY standing up Russia’s war effort with drone parts, soldiers, economic cooperation, etc (I would also submit that even the United States under this traitorous administration is a threat to Ukraine & the west).

Ukraine is faaaaar from “out of the woods” when it comes to its permanent integration with the west.

Yup

Ironically, the U.S. could have decisively tipped the scales in Ukraine’s (and the west’s) favor by being more proactive in the defense of Ukraine, but of course, Putin’s orange puppet was NEVER going to allow that to happen.
To be unbiased here, Biden did far less than he could have too.

Disappointing all round
 
Yup


To be unbiased here, Biden did far less than he could have too.

Disappointing all round

🙄

That ^ is a lie.

President Biden was restrained by pragmatism AND the domestic economic realities AND the global geopolitical realities at the beginning of his term in 2021 - AND at the beginning of the war in 2022. Not to mention the fact that DonOld & the MAGAt republicans ACTIVELY UNDERMINED (sabotaged) the United States’ Ukrainian defense effort once the MAGAt republicans took over the House of Representatives IN THE FALL OF 2022.

😳 😑 🤬

Side note:

I am completely unbiased. I even recognize the underlying factors that went into George W. Bush invading Iraq, and didn’t / don’t have a problem with that mission - other than the fact Bush & Cheney tried to do the post-op in Iraq on the cheap, which led to the rise of ISIS, etc).

😳 😑 🤬

Bottom line:

Chloe and other MAGAts don’t have the first clue about ACTUAL DEMOCRATS and our sober, pragmatic, rational views on the most important issues of our time.

😳 😑 🤬

We. Told. Them. So.

🌷
 
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Yup


To be unbiased here, Biden did far less than he could have too.

Disappointing all round
Unbiased? No. This is picking the bones of a guy who is almost dead. He did more than Trump has to date. Reminder, Joe is 'retired' and out of the picture. Stop beating a good guy to death. Pick a fight with a guy with imaginary bone spurs instead. He has the wheel and is parked on Fifth Avenue, so to speak, for a long damn time.
 
Gazprom's Astrakhan gas processing plant yesterday stopped production of motor fuel after a fire caused by a drone attack, — Reuters.

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Updated map of the regions of Russia where there are shortages of gasoline or diesel and how early was it first reported. Also the occupied territories are suffering even more than this.

Crimea is apparently completely put of gasolinr. The railway line alomg the coast and thru Kerson has been cut and is out of service for weeks at least. Crimea is again being supplied across the Kerch Bridge. Which is not in the best of shape.
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Nice little background piece on the Flamingo......

Coming Moscow's way soon.....

The Ukrainian design philosophy behind the FP-5 Flamingo is utterly alien to the Big/Expensive/Few Western Defense contractors.

"According to Terekh, the design process for the Flamingo was the same as for other products: the rocket went through filters — can we mass-produce it? Will it be cost-effective? Will it be effective on the battlefield? ou can use anything. The main thing is that it works well on the battlefield, and not that it looks beautiful on paper or in advertising booklets. This is the main criterion." The FP-5 started as a napkin idea in the summer of 2024. It was a kind of compilation between the Soviet "Strizh" and "very famous Western counterparts". Sounds very much like the way the old Lockheed "Skunk Works" worked.

The FP-5 enclosure is manufactured fully automatically on a carbon fiber winding machine. The entire fuselage manufacturing cycle takes 6 hours. The use of composite materials reduces the effective scattering area (EPR), which directly affects radar visibility. In addition, it is stated that the missile flies at very low altitudes - "never higher than 50 meters". The main idea of the development is to deliver 1,150 kg of payload very cheaply over a distance "where no one has ever been able to deliver such cargo before." At the same time, range is not the main priority. "Some of our recent operations have proven that despite all the criticism - that the Flamingo is very noticeable, very vulnerable, not maneuverable - it was still able to achieve its targets. And over the past three years, no one has been able to break through the air defense system. Yes, it may not be perfect, but it's not the main task either."

The launcher and "the whole system" are also of the company's own production. "We purposefully strived for cheapness and minimal visibility. I can confirm: you can never tell among the trucks on the road whether there is a Flamingo missile inside or not. And this is our goal, for the sake of staff safety. Because any equipment with a "military appearance" on the battlefield is immediately noticed by reconnaissance drones. And this puts people at great risk." The accuracy of the Flamingo is declared at the level of 14 meters, "including areas where we were actively jammed and spoofed." However, as Terekh notes, the company still needs to collect more statistics. "In our experience, accuracy depends not only on the technical capabilities of the missile, but also on the mission planning strategy. Currently, 14 meters is a repeatedly confirmed result. But of course, there may be factors that will affect accuracy. If this happens, we know how to work with it. But I am quite satisfied with what we have now, because with a warhead of a thousand kilograms, this is a very good result. We don't need more precision. Because greater accuracy will mean the use of more expensive equipment, which will lead to a decrease in the quantity in production."

The trick for Flamingo now is to make it as massive as possible in use. The company is "satisfied" with the precision, "almost satisfied" with mass production, but not yet satisfied with the scale of launches, which mainly depends on the number of people who can go to the launch. What this article underlines is Fire Point engineers are focused on (mass) production engineering and systems engineering to get into mass production an 80% solution to AFU's military requirements.

Something post-Cold War US defense contractors are incompetent at doing.

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New warheads and in-house engine production for the Flamingo

Here's the Ukrainian article, translated:

During the MSPO 2025 military exhibition, the Ukrainian company Fire Point held a press conference, which was attended by Militarnyi's correspondent. At it, Iryna Terekh, CTO of Fire Point, spoke about the company's achievements and further plans for the development of Flamingo cruise missiles and announced the development of ballistic missiles.

How it all began

According to Iryna Terekh, Fire Point was founded by people with a technological background, but without specific defense experience, in 2022, after the start of the full-scale invasion. In her opinion, this gave the company a fresh look at modern existing technologies in order to rethink them and translate them into developments. In addition, the founders of the company were aware that Ukraine had significantly fewer resources, so they focused on finding "asymmetric solutions". "And we realized that since we have significantly fewer resources than our neighbors, we have to fight asymmetrically. We began to think about what could be an alternative for a forward strike - something that would be cheaper, at least as close to mass production as theirs, and at the same time very effective in the sense of electronic warfare. That's how the FP-1 drone was born."

According to the CTO, each project goes through several filters during the creation process:
  • Is it possible to mass-produce it?
  • Will it be economically feasible?
  • The ratio of the cost of damage caused to the cost of damage.
  • According to Terekh, it is extremely important to be in the context of what is happening on the battlefield. There is no "magic pill" or big secret on how to make products effective. You just need to test and test, and think a few steps ahead of the enemy.
Therefore, according to her, during each launch of products, the company's engineers accompany the military. At the same time, the Russians are "hunting" for launch commands, and the company's team has already "caught several arrivals during the launch process." Fortunately, no one was injured.

FP-1 and FP-2 drones

The FP-1 is designed for deep strikes against enemy targets and is mainly used at night. With the serial production of FP-1s and the ability to produce thousands of them every month, the company has created a number of auxiliary productions that serve the main production. Thanks to this, the company manufactures up to 90% of each product in its own workshops.

According to Terekh, a big plus of drones is that they are both simple and reliable at a price of about 55 thousand dollars per unit. At the same time, the FP-1 is responsible for more than 60% of long-range strikes. "Another huge compliment I received from our Armed Forces: each drone is like a new Kalashnikov. It is very simple, very clear. There's nothing "fantastic" about it, but you can always rely on it. Always. You know exactly what the result will be. And this helps a lot to remove the psychological burden from technical operation and transfer it to the military strategy, where you clearly know what you are working with," she says.

The FP-2 appeared as a modification of the FP-1. It was designed to operate at medium and short distances with a higher payload. The drone is capable of carrying 120 kg of payload at a distance of up to 200 km. In general, the design of all FP drones is modular. Therefore, the R&D for the FP-2 took only three weeks. "We were able to create a new model because we received feedback from the front: we really need a device for operational and tactical tasks at a distance of up to 200 km. And this is what the army really lacks - a drone with a large carrying capacity. There are many drones that can carry 5-10 kg, but nothing really big for logistics, railways, headquarters, bases or warehouses."

But under the FP-1 and FP-2 indices, there are actually several versions of drones. In particular, the FP-2 already has three different options. Some of them work as FPVs, while others are completely autonomous. It is stated that FP-2 drones are already used at the front, in particular to destroy railway facilities and logistics centers of the Russians.

FP-5 "Flamingo"

"'Flamingo' is a 'wunderwaffe'. A very large, pink, noticeable "wunderwaffe". And we are not ashamed of the fact that this is a 'child prodigy'."

According to Terekh, the design process for the Flamingo was the same as for other products: the rocket went through filters — can we mass-produce it? Will it be cost-effective? Will it be effective on the battlefield?

"You can use anything. The main thing is that it works well on the battlefield, and not that it looks beautiful on paper or in advertising booklets. This is the main criterion."

FP-5 started as a napkin idea in the summer of 2024. It was a kind of compilation between the Soviet "Strizh" and "very famous Western counterparts". The FP-5 enclosure is manufactured fully automatically on a carbon fiber winding machine. The entire fuselage manufacturing cycle takes 6 hours. The use of composite materials reduces the effective scattering area (EPR), which directly affects radar visibility.

In addition, it is stated that the missile flies at very low altitudes - "never higher than 50 meters".

The main idea of the development is to deliver 1,150 kg of payload very cheaply over a distance "where no one has ever been able to deliver such cargo before." At the same time, range is not the main priority.

"Some of our recent operations have proven that despite all the criticism - that the Flamingo is very noticeable, very vulnerable, not maneuverable - it was still able to achieve its targets. And over the past three years, no one has been able to break through the air defense system. Yes, it may not be perfect, but it's not the main task either."

The launcher and "the whole system" are also of the company's own production.

"We purposefully strived for cheapness and minimal visibility. I can confirm: you can never tell among the trucks on the road whether there is a Flamingo missile inside or not. And this is our goal, for the sake of staff safety. Because any equipment with a "military appearance" on the battlefield is immediately noticed by reconnaissance drones. And this puts people at great risk."

The accuracy of the Flamingo is declared at the level of 14 meters, "including areas where we were actively jammed and spoofed." However, as Terekh notes, the company still needs to collect more statistics. "In our experience, accuracy depends not only on the technical capabilities of the missile, but also on the mission planning strategy. Currently, 14 meters is a repeatedly confirmed result. But of course, there may be factors that will affect accuracy. If this happens, we know how to work with it. But I am quite satisfied with what we have now, because with a warhead of a thousand kilograms, this is a very good result. We don't need more precision. Because greater accuracy will mean the use of more expensive equipment, which will lead to a decrease in the quantity in production."

The trick for Flamingo now is to make it as massive as possible in use. The company is "satisfied" with the precision, "almost satisfied" with mass production, but not yet satisfied with the scale of launches, which mainly depends on the number of people who can go to the launch.

The only area where Fire Point does not directly work is in combat units. This element is manufactured and developed by other Ukrainian companies. According to Terekh, a cluster warhead and "many other types" will also be created soon. Currently, the missile uses a penetrating warhead that "pierces thick concrete" and goes 10 meters underground.

Production is almost completely automated and divided into many different locations. As of the beginning of September, the production rate is about 2 missiles per day (full cycle). With a plan to reach 200 per month by the end of this year.
 

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The company currently uses a stock of old turbojet aircraft engines with a residual life of less than 10 hours.

"There are thousands of such engines,
and we bought them in advance so that we could have a margin before mass production... We have a large stock for many months to come. No one is producing them for us now. We found these engines literally "in the trash" and restored them." However, given the finiteness of this stock and the high planned production rates, Fire Point is already building a plant under license from a Ukrainian manufacturer in order to manufacture engines independently from the beginning of next year. At the same time, the design of the engine was simplified as much as possible, given the need to make them cheaply and massively with a built-in resource of 10 hours of operation.

AI, navigation, FP-3 and FP-4 and ballistic missiles

According to Terekh, the FP-3 and FP-4 are "empty slots" for R&D models coming soon. There is no "big idea" in this name, it is "just a different speed of project development and prioritization."

AI is used in many technologies that are applied in "all products of the company". In particular, in guidance systems at the last stage of flight, interaction with systems, "night map matching" at low altitudes, and in many other cases. The company's main focus now is projects in the field of air defense and ballistic missiles. "It should work without 'shiny shows' around. I think that Ukraine without its own line of ballistic missiles for various tasks will not be able to win the war or defend itself in the future. Therefore, our main focus at the moment is ballistics and air defense... We will tell you more when we have successful results not only in the laboratory, but also on the battlefield," said Iryna Terekh.

According to the technical director, classic GPS navigation is very quickly approaching its end.

"I don't know how much longer we will be able to use this technology. This is a constant race: we make better antennas, they make better jammers; we build better GNSS receivers, they try to arrange jammers differently to get in our way. Yes, so far we will win, but does it make sense to spend so much effort?" she explains.

That is why the company is focused on "lock matching" technologies, on any visual solutions, lasers, closed satellite grids, and sometimes on radio communication.

Plant in Denmark
"I would say this: there are certain principles and values in our team. And we have a very good memory of all the good and bad things that have been done for us. Denmark is one of the countries that has been the most altruistic of all European states. And we are extremely grateful for that. They have been providing funding for Ukrainian defense for months, not only for our company, but for the defense of Ukraine in general. And they did it without expecting anything in return," Iryna Terekh answered in response to the question why Denmark was chosen to open a new plant of solid fuel engines.

Denmark has adopted a special law, which was unofficially called "FP Law". It deregulated the bureaucracy in the field of defense production.

"This is a great honor and a huge credit of trust to Ukrainian manufacturers. We are just one of many companies in this process," she said.

The construction is taking place within the framework of the "Build with Ukraine" program, created so that other Ukrainian manufacturers can also open their production facilities in Denmark. This plant will work exclusively in the interests of Ukraine until the end of the war. This is not an export activity. The company is ready to take on risks, logistics and additional costs in order to maintain one of the most sensitive productions - after all, the production of solid rocket fuel is very vulnerable.

"In Ukraine, we already have a fairly large production of solid fuel engines. We didn't expect it, but it works now — delivering FP-1, FP-2, and FP-5. But due to massive missile strikes every night, we are afraid that it can be destroyed at any time. This can cause enormous damage. Of course, this is not the only location, we don't do such stupid things. But still, there are missiles and explosives inside. It's very risky," she explains.

https://militarnyi.com/uk/articles/...-inshi-pidsumky-preskonferentsiyi-fire-point/

Those warheads are actually old USSR-era bombs they're recycling from the old stockpiles - they have thousands of them as well.....

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