Language issue?

[iwatchus]

I am working on a sci-fi novel about early settlers on a new planet. The entire community (New Gaul) is from post apocalyptic France. I am trying t maintain their French culture in ways, but they speak English. My French is not quite good enough to pull off having them speak French and no one would be able to read it. Having them speak English just feels wrong at times. Should I just live with it? Or rewrite the backstory to make them English speaking? That would actually force a lot of changes, some of which I'm not happy with.

Am I being too pedantic with myself or should I make a major change to avoid the problem?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Am I being too pedantic with myself or should I make a major change to avoid the problem?

Why post-apocalypse France, if you don't speak French? Perhaps you should cross the Channel and set the story in post-apocalypse Britain.

 

[EmmAgain]

Look, I’m not a writer and have no pretence to be, but I’d avoid getting hung up on those sorts of details. You’re not Atticus Finch methodically building a watertight case to argue before the Supreme Court!

It’s fiction. Nobody needs to know the backstory and nobody wants to be distracted by your convoluted efforts to explain it all. I read Cormac McCarthy’s The Road and George Orwell’s 1984 in high school. Those authors weaved entire worlds out of nothing. Does that make their books bad?

 

[StillStunned]

Perhaps you could do it like the TV series Firefly, and write in English but with a few French expressions or swearwords thrown in.

Not the simple words like "bonjour", "oui" and "monsieur" - I hate it when non-English speakers are portrayed as speaking excellent English, except for the simplest and most common words - but some key concepts in their society. Government, housing, sanitation, food and drink, weather, clothing - those are all things that permeate their lives and society, and it would make sense to have their vocabulary reflect that.

 

[iwatchus]

Why post-apocalypse France, if you don't speak French? Perhaps you should cross the Channel and set the story in post-apocalypse Britain.

Some of the story line depends on certain factors that I can't make work across the channel. I would probably have to move it to the states, but that carries its own baggage.

And this is only the backstory. The story itself takes place 100% on another planet, but the backstory drives much of the plot and the character arcs.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I am working on a sci-fi novel about early settlers on a new planet. The entire community (New Gaul) is from post apocalyptic France. I am trying t maintain their French culture in ways, but they speak English. My French is not quite good enough to pull off having them speak French and no one would be able to read it. Having them speak English just feels wrong at times. Should I just live with it? Or rewrite the backstory to make them English speaking? That would actually force a lot of changes, some of which I'm not happy with.

Am I being too pedantic with myself or should I make a major change to avoid the problem?

I'm sure you had reasons for making the choice you did.

What if you did something stylish like putting French dialog in brackets and treat it like a subtitle?

[Sir, I could not!]

[But you must! There is no one else!]

Then, if you have any English, you could have them switch to a more traditional style.

"Excuse me, ma'am?" His accent marked him as English. Maybe he had a boat.

"Go away," she said, wrapping her arms tightly around her son. "You should not be here."

If I did this, I would consult a native French speaker to help you get some of the phrasing correct. Even if its translated, there's a lot of nuance and depth you can express with the right word choices

 

[iwatchus]

Perhaps you could do it like the TV series Firefly, and write in English but with a few French expressions or swearwords thrown in.

Not the simple words like "bonjour", "oui" and "monsieur" - I hate it when non-English speakers are portrayed as speaking excellent English, except for the simplest and most common words - but some key concepts in their society. Government, housing, sanitation, food and drink, weather, clothing - those are all things that permeate their lives and society, and it would make sense to have their vocabulary reflect that.

I did a form of this in the upcoming crime & punishment piece. Unfortunately, none of my beta readers knew enough French to appreciate them. Assuming much of anyone actually reads it when it appears next week, I am curious what reaction I will get from someone who knows some french.

 

[iwatchus]

I'm sure you had reasons for making the choice you did.

What if you did something stylish like putting French dialog in brackets and treat it like a subtitle?

[Sir, I could not!]

[But you must! There is no one else!]

Then, if you have any English, you could have them switch to a more traditional style.

"Excuse me, ma'am?" His accent marked him as English. Maybe he had a boat.

"Go away," she said, wrapping her arms tightly around her son. "You should not be here."

If I did this, I would consult a native French speaker to help you get some of the phrasing correct. Even if its translated, there's a lot of nuance and depth you can express with the right word choices

I may try this and see how I feel it works. I just worry it may get clunky looking as the love story portion of the plot develops.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Perhaps you could do it like the TV series Firefly, and write in English but with a few French expressions or swearwords thrown in.

Not the simple words like "bonjour", "oui" and "monsieur" - I hate it when non-English speakers are portrayed as speaking excellent English, except for the simplest and most common words - but some key concepts in their society. Government, housing, sanitation, food and drink, weather, clothing - those are all things that permeate their lives and society, and it would make sense to have their vocabulary reflect that.

I agree - the odd swear word, term of endearment, something related to food. Perhaps the odd tweak to word order, that sounds more French.

This being Lit, you could make use of the word 'baveuse', which I'm informed means both the texture of the perfect omelette, but is also the word to describe how a turned-on woman is also perfectly moist...

 

[crookedletter]

It's pretty common to write historical fiction in English that doesn't take place in the English-speaking world. It's understood without being pointed out that the dialogue -- and everything else, really -- is translated for the English-speaking/reading reader. It even comes up from time to time that a character will enter the scene that doesn't speak the French or Italian or whatever everyone else is speaking: "'Who are you?' I said, but he didn't understand my French." I honestly don't find it awkward at all, it's part of the natural suspension of disbelief necessary to reading fiction.

I don't see why your sci-fi setting should be handled any differently.

 

[MiaBabe23]

I am working on a sci-fi novel about early settlers on a new planet. The entire community (New Gaul) is from post apocalyptic France. I am trying t maintain their French culture in ways, but they speak English. My French is not quite good enough to pull off having them speak French and no one would be able to read it. Having them speak English just feels wrong at times. Should I just live with it? Or rewrite the backstory to make them English speaking? That would actually force a lot of changes, some of which I'm not happy with.

Am I being too pedantic with myself or should I make a major change to avoid the problem?

If it’s the kind of story where the setting matters, the readers who will enjoy it most will likely have an eye for detail, and will want to feel and believe that it’s set in France
I think that gives three obvious options, the two worthy ones inevitably taking some work -
One, do as you mention and rewrite it set in an English speaking country
Two, use code-switching as suggested above to blend key patterns of speech, phrases etc into the majority English dialogue eg A Year in Provence
Many readers, like me, do enjoy it when authors do this well, for authenticity, and/ or to learn
Or three - have some convenient event at the start that explains why everyone now speaks English…!

 

[StillStunned]

Or three - have some convenient event at the start that explains why everyone now speaks English…!

All the French teachers died in the apocalypse.

 

[Dreamerman77]

I am working on a sci-fi novel about early settlers on a new planet. The entire community (New Gaul) is from post apocalyptic France. I am trying t maintain their French culture in ways, but they speak English. My French is not quite good enough to pull off having them speak French and no one would be able to read it. Having them speak English just feels wrong at times. Should I just live with it? Or rewrite the backstory to make them English speaking? That would actually force a lot of changes, some of which I'm not happy with.

Am I being too pedantic with myself or should I make a major change to avoid the problem?

I'm facing a similar "problem" in my story where the MC speaks old English and she's brought to Norway where they speak old Norse. I solved the problem by integrating words, close enough, that the reader understands them;

"You must listen,” I urged. “Your piety is not a scyld.”

Her lips thinned. “Faith is the only shield that matters.”

And by putting in a direct translation, like this;


This was my Fimbulvetr, the long winter preceding Ragnarök.

 

[crookedletter]

The only example I can think of where a writer writes non-English speakers speaking their native language untranslated is Cormac McCarthy's Border trilogy, which has a lot of Spanish, and the reader has to decide whether or not to try to decipher it. I think if I found that approach in anything not otherwise as brilliant as Cormac McCarthy, I would find it tiresome and kind of obnoxious. There's no equivalent of subtitles in prose -- you're allowed to just present the text pre-translated.

 

[AwkwardMD]

The only example I can think of where a writer writes non-English speakers speaking their native language untranslated is Cormac McCarthy's Border trilogy, which has a lot of Spanish, and the reader has to decide whether or not to try to decipher it. I think if I found that approach in anything not otherwise as brilliant as Cormac McCarthy, I would find it tiresome and kind of obnoxious. There's no equivalent of subtitles in prose -- you're allowed to just present the text pre-translated.

I've done that and I'm nobody. It's not an expert-level-only technique.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't see a problem. People write stories all the time where the characters speak English in non-English speaking settings. Shakespeare did it. Stick to your guns and write it the way you want. There will be better food, for one thing.

 

[CreamyPeachyKeen]

Yes, you're thinking about it too hard. If you want French vibes without actual French, there's nothing to stop you. That's a common approach used by many bilingual authors writing for an English-speaking audience. You can scatter in the occasional French word...or don't! It works just fine either way and it's probably not the most important detail for readers anyway.

 

[crookedletter]

I've done that and I'm nobody. It's not an expert-level-only technique.

Fair enough, maybe I overstated the brilliance-only requirement. Not to say I agree that you're nobody...

The point is there's plenty of precedent for avoiding that potential impediment to reader engagement. And if you do something like that that makes the story that much harder to read, you might lose some readers who aren't already otherwise sold.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm having a bad day today, so instead of ranting and arguing I'm just going to put my marker down on "Take chances and be brave."

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's pretty common to write historical fiction in English that doesn't take place in the English-speaking world. It's understood without being pointed out that the dialogue -- and everything else, really -- is translated for the English-speaking/reading reader. It even comes up from time to time that a character will enter the scene that doesn't speak the French or Italian or whatever everyone else is speaking: "'Who are you?' I said, but he didn't understand my French." I honestly don't find it awkward at all, it's part of the natural suspension of disbelief necessary to reading fiction.

I don't see why your sci-fi setting should be handled any differently.

I was going to say this, just not as well stated as Crookedletter did.
This is extremely commonly used in historical fiction, and everyone is okay with it.
Even if you were writing it in French, would French however far in the future sound exactly like modern French? Unlikely, but we suspend that disbelief.

 

[PennyThompson]

One of my favorite TV series in the last few years was Chernobyl, and all of the soviet characters simply spoke English in the actors' native accents.

The verisimilitude of the sets and costumes and acting would not have benefited from having English-speaking actors use a language they weren't fluent in, or even worse, having them try and act in English using Russian and Ukrainian accents

 

[StillStunned]

Another option:

 

[crookedletter]

The movie The Hunt for Red October -- I think it's that one, it's been awhile -- uses kind of a hilarious approach, where the Russian characters speak subtitled Russian until it seems the filmmakers grow tired of translating. At which point the camera zooms in on a speaker's lips and he switches to English. And the rest of the movie is just in English.

 

[iwatchus]

The movie The Hunt for Red October -- I think it's that one, it's been awhile -- uses kind of a hilarious approach, where the Russian characters speak subtitled Russian until it seems the filmmakers grow tired of translating. At which point the camera zooms in on a speaker's lips and he switches to English. And the rest of the movie is just in English.

I did think about (and reject) this approach. Anyone who did not know French would bail. Then all the francophiles would hate me when I went back to English. I would be cursed out in two languages

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Figure out the sound you want for your group(s), and make a note of it. "Group 1 - Cajun. 2: Quebecois 3: Aulde Francais (and yea, that terminological collision is deliberate). 4: Algerian etc. Not a one has to be "real", it's a placeholder, a reminder for yourself for when you next pick up the project. Then find ways (explicit or implicit) to footstomp the difference in tone for your audience.