Where are the happy, chill lesbians?

[EmilyMiller]

Lost my institutional access months ago

Yeah - me too, and more than months ago. Based only on abstracts, these all seem meta-studies or review articles. And virtually all of them state problems with definitions, methodologies, and data sparsity, before nevertheless launching into conclusions. I can’t access the actual data, nor how the conclusions were drawn. More than one of the papers that are cited refer to “failings in feminist ideology,” or similar phrases. At that point, I’m out.

Psychology doesn’t seem to quite do normal scientific rigor, sadly. It would be interesting to see some robust research and to be able to understand the survey and statistical methodolies. But I’d need to get someone with journal access to download them for me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There's merit to this idea. And it's just as much about readers as it is about authors. The mostly fictional categories, such as SF&F, IT, Ex, even BDSM and Fetish, are mostly "happy" categories. LW likely rings true to some readers and thus provokes a strong reaction. Could be.

But I think there's one more aspect that's important when it comes to LS and Romance categories, and the popularity of a certain type of story there. Both categories focus on romance, and for a romance to work, it has to at least begin with pain, loss, and struggle. I mean, no one wants to read about a happy person who fell in love, whose love was reciprocated, and then became even happier and lived happily ever after. That wouldn't be impactful and would likely be even boring.

So for a romance to have impact, for that touch of love and happiness at the end to have meaning, it has to begin with sadness, pain, loss, struggle... The eventual love and happiness are only fulfilling if characters suffer and struggle in their journey towards love.
The additional benefit is the fact that it's much easier for a reader to feel empathy and to connect with a character who struggles, who has faced rejection, or who has suffered some tragedy or loss. Readers root for such characters and follow their struggle towards that happy or bittersweet ending. It only makes sense that such stories leave a lasting impression on the reader.

Also, hard times test the strength of a relationship like nothing else can. You never truly know a partner until you've seen how they react when you're down.

 

[AchtungNight]

I’ve only ever written happy lesbian or bisexual women. Sometimes they feel angst, but they get over it during the story with their partners’ help. I know this doesn’t entirely reflect reality, but my stories aren’t about reality. Hope readers can understand and appreciate them nonetheless.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Lost my institutional access months ago but got these breadcrumbs from a BBC article


Carroll's study seems particularly interesting as it reviews four studies of statistical significance.

https://news.northwestern.edu/stori...nce-likely-more-frequent-for-same-sex-couples

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2014.958792

One thing I couldn't tell from Carroll's [edit: Stiles-Shields and Carroll's] paper is whether these studies considered confounding factors.

For instance, poverty is associated with a significant increase in DV rates - rich people aren't necessarily nicer, but people with more money have more options for getting out of bad situations. Queer people tend to have higher rates of poverty than the general population (in particular bi women and trans people generally), so one would expect to see somewhat higher rates of DV in those groups; the question would then be are they higher than normal for straight/cis couples in similar economic situations?

 

[stickygirl]

Wow. Glad I took an early night. How did this all go from giggling about weepy lesbians to using dodgy stats to prove all LGBTQIA are violent scum? Classic AH bullshit

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It would probably be best if we returned to the original topic and discussed the tropes and story types in the LS category. @joy_of_cooking has been kinda guilted into dropping the topic, but I hope he returns and takes part in it. He even apologized for the crudeness of his post, and I realize not all people here saw it as such, but we should be constructive for a change and not nitpick.
Let's try to drop all the political bickering and focus on writing, story themes, and readers' preferences. There's really no need to suffocate every writing-related topic with it.

In the spirit of it, I'll name a different type of relatively popular LS story, one with mostly happy lesbians. Those are stories with gentle d/s themes, more role-playing than a lifestyle thing. I've seen the "mommy" dynamics in a good deal of such stories. It's my impression that those stories do relatively well, albeit not as well as the type JOC mentioned.

What other types of stories in LS can you name?

 

[onehitwanda]

 

[Off_base]

I think the OP stepped in it by asking their question based upon a predetermined opinion, then named three of lit's most popular authors as examples, who, he insinuates, are limited to one type of storyline.

As if other categories are far more diverse?

Similar to asking why all country music is sad, and naming three popular artists who sing sad songs, as examples.

 

[stickygirl]

View attachment 2564475

Nailed it

 

[stickygirl]

So apart from the OPs brain fart and the opinion-tag-wrestling and the violent lesbians
How do we write about scissoring without mentioning domestic violence, infidelity, broken homes and political insurrection? Beats me … but that makes sense because I’m bisexual as well

 

[Off_base]

So apart from the OPs brain fart and the opinion-tag-wrestling and the violent lesbians
How do we write about scissoring without mentioning domestic violence, infidelity, broken homes and political insurrection? Beats me … but that makes sense because I’m bisexual as well

Some of my fave LS stories are the chance encounters/unexpected relationships. There's no unhappiness or angst in most of those.

 

[stickygirl]

My LS tomes usually end in tragedy. Under the Knife 01 sees one MC dashing home to manage a crisis. Under your Breath finishes with the two planning a life together after a simple separation.

I’m sure the featured authors are flattered by the OPs attention but I suspect he needs to broaden his choices

 

[onehitwanda]

I'm honestly just here for the red wine and chocolate. And even the chocolate is optional.

More seriously, to loop back to @joy_of_cooking 's original question - clearly there is a "market" here for sad stories with hopeful endings. I'm not an authority on these, nor am I claiming to be the "best" at this because there are lot of better authors in LS than me. I just seem to be "popular" at the moment, and that moment will pass.

---

I was thinking about this thread earlier when reading (and crying through) @redgarters' lovely "Wake me up inside" - it's not that I want to be sad, no. I want to be happy. But I am sad, with moments of happiness sprinkled in between. Age has lessened the difference between both, somewhat. And from the messages I get here, that is not an uncommon state for readers to be in too.

Life is hard. We love, we lose, we get ill, our friends die, sometimes our children die and we are left behind. Sometimes we have to watch the people we are closest to destroy themselves and there's nothing we can do to stop it. Life's mostly awful, really... yet we go on. Sometimes it's because that's all there is to do, but sometimes I believe it's because we hope.

We hope. Hope may be something as little as "I hope she smiles at me again today," or as big as "I hope she doesn't freak out when I tell her I love her." But for some of us it's the only thing we have.

So I write little things with hope in them. Some are better than others, some more poignant. I give the women I create hope of something better, however fleeting it may be. And I hope that I give some of the other broken people out there a moment where, perhaps, things are just a little bit less hopeless and they have a moment to escape their own horrors and... just take a breath.

 

[AwkwardMD]

It would probably be best if we returned to the original topic and discussed the tropes and story types in the LS category. @joy_of_cooking has been kinda guilted into dropping the topic, but I hope he returns and takes part in it. He even apologized for the crudeness of his post, and I realize not all people here saw it as such, but we should be constructive for a change and not nitpick.
Let's try to drop all the political bickering and focus on writing, story themes, and readers' preferences. There's really no need to suffocate every writing-related topic with it.

In the spirit of it, I'll name a different type of relatively popular LS story, one with mostly happy lesbians. Those are stories with gentle d/s themes, more role-playing than a lifestyle thing. I've seen the "mommy" dynamics in a good deal of such stories. It's my impression that those stories do relatively well, albeit not as well as the type JOC mentioned.

What other types of stories in LS can you name?

Thank you.

Unfortunately, all I write are the sad ones. My writing is therapy, not erotic writing for the sake of erotic writing. *I like to think* I do okay in terms of reception, and my read on my comments is that readers appreciate the specific kind of emotional complexity I explore. One of my more recent stories did explore a little bit of gentle, supportive Mommy-ness, if you squint at it, but I only got there because it felt right for the characters and I wouldn't think its prevelant enough to tag Out that way. I would feel like I was lying to draw readers in.

 

[iwatchus]

Thank you to the recent posters for returning this thread to its original question, possibly now rephrased.

I think the question as to why the most common emotional feel for LS is what it is is interesting. That said, I think it may have more diversity (emotionally and story arc) than most of the categories.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Yeah - me too, and more than months ago. Based only on abstracts, these all seem meta-studies or review articles. And virtually all of them state problems with definitions, methodologies, and data sparsity, before nevertheless launching into conclusions. I can’t access the actual data, nor how the conclusions were drawn. More than one of the papers that are cited refer to “failings in feminist ideology,” or similar phrases. At that point, I’m out.

Psychology doesn’t seem to quite do normal scientific rigor, sadly. It would be interesting to see some robust research and to be able to understand the survey and statistical methodolies. But I’d need to get someone with journal access to download them for me.

Multiple peer reviewed studies across numerous scientific journals all come to the same conclusion. Crime statistics back up the conclusion.
Every major LGBTQ advocacy group recognizes the problem and has programs to deal with it.
But, yes, we should all withhold judgement til you try to find a methodological flaw all that peer review missed.


Thr DOJs stats don't suffer from any of the supposed limitations you mentioned and the entire article and data is provided at the link I provided.

 

[MelissaBaby]

There are no significant thematic differences between stories I submit to Lesbian and those I submit elsewhere. I don't read enough stories to make any broad characterization of the category in general. My inclination is to look side eyed at anyone who claims they have. People have a funny way of finding what they are looking for.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Wow. Glad I took an early night. How did this all go from giggling about weepy lesbians to using dodgy stats to prove all LGBTQIA are violent scum? Classic AH bullshit

Because it was never "giggling about weepy lesbians". It was people attacking OP for asking about weepy lesbians.
Of course now that we see the statistics for lesbians' propensity for violence that makes more sense.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

One thing I couldn't tell from Carroll's paper is whether these studies considered confounding factors.

For instance, poverty is associated with a significant increase in DV rates - rich people aren't necessarily nicer, but people with more money have more options for getting out of bad situations. Queer people tend to have higher rates of poverty than the general population (in particular bi women and trans people generally), so one would expect to see somewhat higher rates of DV in those groups; the question would then be are they higher than normal for straight/cis couples in similar economic situations?

https://www.census.gov/library/stor...income-than-opposite-sex-married-couples.html

Overall, same-sex married couples had a higher median household income than opposite-sex married couples: $107,200 and $96,930, respectively.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Because it was never "giggling about weepy lesbians". It was people attacking OP for asking about weepy lesbians.
Of course now that we see the statistics for lesbians' propensity for violence that makes more sense.

I doubt it is your intent, but your posts on this thread seem to be increasingly hostile toward lesbians, and virtually pathologizing those who write lesbian fiction. Perhaps you should reconsider how you address these issues if you want your points to be considered.

 

[PennyThompson]

Beats me

STICKY NO

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'm honestly just here for the red wine and chocolate. And even the chocolate is optional.

More seriously, to loop back to @joy_of_cooking 's original question - clearly there is a "market" here for sad stories with hopeful endings. I'm not an authority on these, nor am I claiming to be the "best" at this because there are lot of better authors in LS than me. I just seem to be "popular" at the moment, and that moment will pass.

---

I was thinking about this thread earlier when reading (and crying through) @redgarters' lovely "Wake me up inside" - it's not that I want to be sad, no. I want to be happy. But I am sad, with moments of happiness sprinkled in between. Age has lessened the difference between both, somewhat. And from the messages I get here, that is not an uncommon state for readers to be in too.

Life is hard. We love, we lose, we get ill, our friends die, sometimes our children die and we are left behind. Sometimes we have to watch the people we are closest to destroy themselves and there's nothing we can do to stop it. Life's mostly awful, really... yet we go on. Sometimes it's because that's all there is to do, but sometimes I believe it's because we hope.

We hope. Hope may be something as little as "I hope she smiles at me again today," or as big as "I hope she doesn't freak out when I tell her I love her." But for some of us it's the only thing we have.

So I write little things with hope in them. Some are better than others, some more poignant. I give the women I create hope of something better, however fleeting it may be. And I hope that I give some of the other broken people out there a moment where, perhaps, things are just a little bit less hopeless and they have a moment to escape their own horrors and... just take a breath.

I'm shocked at how much of what you said applies to me, too. Perhaps my view of life is a little bit less grim, but not by much. Yet, my emotional and mental state is remarkably similar to yours.

Anyway, the curious part is that your stories clearly reflect the state of your mind and heart. Your stories reveal your soul, in a way.
My stories, especially the fantasy ones, reveal a part of me too, yet my choice is escapism in the form of adventurous stories, with characters who also struggle and suffer, but are generally much happier and much more optimistic than I am. I'd say that readers connect well with both kinds of stories.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah, even male victims were hurt mostly by men

Shocking.

Where's that bear vs man conversation?

 

[Erozetta]

Don't mind me, I've had a crush on Shirley for a long long time and this song just fit the thread... And makes me happy.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think the answer to the OP's question is...

Not here.