Where are the happy, chill lesbians?

[stickygirl]

"I can fix him" is an incredibly common fantasy.

Darcy, pride and prejudice…
but Wickham: bought a commission and banished to Yorkshire

 

[TheRedChamber]

Darcy, pride and prejudice…
but Wickham: bought a commission and banished to Yorkshire

Also Marge Simpson, The Simpsons...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Interesting point. We certainly bring all our own baggage and perceptions into what we write.
Unfortunately, as is often the case on Lit we don't really have any data to use for a hypothesis.
How many of the writers in a given category are writing from 1st hand experience vs 2nd hand, vs making it up from whole cloth.
Is IT a happier place because 99% of it is likely (hopefully) purely imagination. Is LW angrier because there is more 1st hand experience there?

There's merit to this idea. And it's just as much about readers as it is about authors. The mostly fictional categories, such as SF&F, IT, Ex, even BDSM and Fetish, are mostly "happy" categories. LW likely rings true to some readers and thus provokes a strong reaction. Could be.

But I think there's one more aspect that's important when it comes to LS and Romance categories, and the popularity of a certain type of story there. Both categories focus on romance, and for a romance to work, it has to at least begin with pain, loss, and struggle. I mean, no one wants to read about a happy person who fell in love, whose love was reciprocated, and then became even happier and lived happily ever after. That wouldn't be impactful and would likely be even boring.

So for a romance to have impact, for that touch of love and happiness at the end to have meaning, it has to begin with sadness, pain, loss, struggle... The eventual love and happiness are only fulfilling if characters suffer and struggle in their journey towards love.
The additional benefit is the fact that it's much easier for a reader to feel empathy and to connect with a character who struggles, who has faced rejection, or who has suffered some tragedy or loss. Readers root for such characters and follow their struggle towards that happy or bittersweet ending. It only makes sense that such stories leave a lasting impression on the reader.

On the other hand, happy stories are more likely to be centered around sex, steamy encounters, and specific kinks. They can be, err, fulfilling, but are unlikely to have a similar emotional impact. They are unlikely to provoke as many meaningful and empathic comments. They are usually reread more often, though.

 

[RetroFan]

It's interesting. I remember when I submitted my early 1960s-set lesbian story 'April Leads Julie Astray' I was really nervous thinking that fans would hate it given the serious themes and the two girls having had unhappy childhoods, with Julie crippled by polio and April the victim of serious physical and emotional child abuse at the hands of her war-affected and now estranged mother. Given that I usually write comedy stories, I thought any regular readers of my stories in other categories would hate it too, even though it does have some comedic moments such as a fat bumbling young guy who has a crush on Julie and makes a fool of himself trying to chat her up. To my surprise the readers loved the story, giving it high praise and to date it remains one of my highest scoring stories ever.

 

[stickygirl]

Can’t live on saccharin 24/7 - we all need our lemon squeezed every now and then

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There's merit to this idea. And it's just as much about readers as it is about authors. The mostly fictional categories, such as SF&F, IT, Ex, even BDSM and Fetish, are mostly "happy" categories. LW likely rings true to some readers and thus provokes a strong reaction. Could be.

But I think there's one more aspect that's important when it comes to LS and Romance categories, and the popularity of a certain type of story there. Both categories focus on romance, and for a romance to work, it has to at least begin with pain, loss, and struggle. I mean, no one wants to read about a happy person who fell in love, whose love was reciprocated, and then became even happier and lived happily ever after. That wouldn't be impactful and would likely be even boring.

So for a romance to have impact, for that touch of love and happiness at the end to have meaning, it has to begin with sadness, pain, loss, struggle... The eventual love and happiness are only fulfilling if characters suffer and struggle in their journey towards love.
The additional benefit is the fact that it's much easier for a reader to feel empathy and to connect with a character who struggles, who has faced rejection, or who has suffered some tragedy or loss. Readers root for such characters and follow their struggle towards that happy or bittersweet ending. It only makes sense that such stories leave a lasting impression on the reader.

On the other hand, happy stories are more likely to be centered around sex, steamy encounters, and specific kinks. They can be, err, fulfilling, but are unlikely to have a similar emotional impact. They are unlikely to provoke as many meaningful and empathic comments. They are usually reread more often, though.

Good point, but I don't think romance HAS to be centered around tragedy or misfortune as you suggest.
There just needs to be an obstacle keeping our characters apart.
Tragedy is the easiest (and I say that as someone who has written tragic backstories) but certainly not the only possibility.
The whole genre of Romantic Comedy exists around comedic elements keeping the characters apart and the genre has some wildly successful examples.
Of course, the challenge for authors is comedy is a lot more challenging than drama.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Good point, but I don't think romance HAS to be centered around tragedy or misfortune as you suggest.
There just needs to be an obstacle keeping our characters apart.
Tragedy is the easiest (and I say that as someone who has written tragic backstories) but certainly not the only possibility.
The whole genre of Romantic Comedy exists around comedic elements keeping the characters apart and the genre has some wildly successful examples.
Of course, the challenge for authors is comedy is a lot more challenging than drama.

It doesn't have to be about loss or tragedy, I agree. But it's easier to give "weight" to the story in that way compared to any other approach. A character who's in pain, or who has suffered a loss, automatically gains "depth." Pain and sorrow do it much more efficiently than anything else.
It would take a lot more effort to achieve it with a happy or content character. Readers are far stingier with empathy in that case. So yeah, it's a cheat code of a sort.

Romantic comedies are more suitable for movies than for stories, and one of the reasons is the difficulty of creating a comedic moment in a written story. They are definitely harder to write than drama, in my opinion.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It doesn't have to be about loss or tragedy, I agree. But it's easier to give "weight" to the story in that way compared to any other approach. A character who's in pain, or who has suffered a loss, automatically gains "depth." Pain and sorrow do it much more efficiently than anything else.
It would take a lot more effort to achieve it with a happy or content character. Readers are far stingier with empathy in that case. So yeah, it's a cheat code of a sort.

Romantic comedies are more suitable for movies than for stories, and one of the reasons is the difficulty of creating a comedic moment in a written story. They are definitely harder to write than drama, in my opinion.

I agreee, comedy is MUCH harder to write. It's easy to have funny moments in a story, but sustained comedy is exceedingly difficult.
And tragedy is definitely a cheat code. Create a tragic/sympathetic backstory and it turns the empathy dial to 11.
So does the question then become why do the writers of LS seem to resort to the cheat code more often?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

So does the question then become why do the writers of LS seem to resort to the cheat code more often?

I really wouldn't say something like that. I do believe that most of them write the stories they want to write, and those stories resonate with many readers. I believe they would write those stories even if it were the other way around.

There are writers who pursue popular types of stories, but that makes sense only when they do it for commercial reasons, and I don't see any such inclinations with most popular LS writers.

Surely, it's possible to discuss this topic on an academic level, without implying anything about the motives of those writers. I certainly do not think they write what they write for any other reason but for the desire to write those exact stories. I mean, why would they have different tastes compared to most of the LS readership? It only makes sense.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I really wouldn't say something like that. I do believe that most of them write the stories they want to write, and those stories resonate with many readers. I believe they would write those stories even if it were the other way around.

There are writers who pursue popular types of stories, but that makes sense only when they do it for commercial reasons, and I don't see any such inclinations with most popular LS writers.

Surely, it's possible to discuss this topic on an academic level, without implying anything about the motives of those writers. I certainly do not think they write what they write for any other reason but for the desire to write those exact stories. I mean, why would they have different tastes compared to most of the LS readership? It only makes sense.

I don't disagree with the assertion that they write the stories they want to write. I'm just curious about the "why".

 

[THBGato]

I'm just curious about the "why".

I think authors have said that several times in this thread, if you care to read back. I know I have.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I think authors have said that several times in this thread, if you care to read back. I know I have.

People have advanced theories based on victimization real or perceived. Those theories have more holes than Swiss cheese.
Why do discussions like this going on scare you?
AwkwardlySet and I are having a polite adult discussion about a topic of interest to writers. That's kind of the point of the AH.
The fact that a certain segment (the usual suspects) got their feels hurt doesn't mean the rest of us can't have this conversation. If you aren't interested why comment at all?

 

[AwkwardMD]

I think authors have said that several times in this thread, if you care to read back. I know I have.

How dare you interrupt their opinions with your expertise. Shame.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

How dare you interrupt their opinions with your expertise. Shame.

That's a lot of mental and emotional attention to try and prove how much you don't care

Besides, I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate expertise.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Apropos of nothing, here's the wikipedia entry for argument from authority , a disingenuous rhetorical technique and logical fallacy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Where someone claims an expert has spoken and thus the discussion is over.

 

[Omenainen]

I personally don't see why tragedy would be a cheat code. I do think it needs to be handled proportionally, so that hard things are hard and take time, and have the right gravity. That's something I've seen authors fumble with, not necessarily in Lesbian category but overall, also in mainstream literature.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I personally don't see why tragedy would be a cheat code. I do think it needs to be handled proportionally, so that hard things are hard and take time, and have the right gravity. That's something I've seen authors fumble with, not necessarily in Lesbian category but overall, also in mainstream literature.

Fair point. Cheat code may be overstating the case. I do think tragedy is the easiest way to make a character emotionally compelling. And, you are 100 correct, like any other technique it can be handled poorly.
What is the right amount of tragedy to make a character interesting, but not descend into farce.

 

[THBGato]

I don't disagree with the assertion that they write the stories they want to write. I'm just curious about the "why".

Okay. If you're genuinely curious as to why authors write what they do, I've written a whole essay here. I look forward to your feedback. Obviously, that only deals with MY motivation, but both OneHitWanda and Areala-Chan, the other two authors mentioned in the OP, have both explained their motivations on this thread. So I refer you to my earlier comment:

I think authors have said that several times in this thread, if you care to read back. I know I have.

People have advanced theories based on victimization real or perceived. Those theories have more holes than Swiss cheese.

It doesn't actually matter whether these "theories" (I'd call them facts, but whatever) are true or not. They are my motivation for writing. I don't need to demonstrate them! They inspire me to write.

Why do discussions like this going on scare you?

Where in this thread have I expressed anything approaching fear? I was trying to give you a genuine answe to what I presumed was a genuine question of yours. My bad, clearly.

(E & A, I'm so sorry for not listening to you.)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Okay. If you're genuinely curious as to why authors write what they do, I've written a whole essay here. I look forward to your feedback. Obviously, that only deals with MY motivation, but both OneHitWanda and Areala-Chan, the other two authors mentioned in the OP, have both explained their motivations on this thread. So I refer you to my earlier comment:






It doesn't actually matter whether these "theories" (I'd call them facts, but whatever) are true or not. They are my motivation for writing. I don't need to demonstrate them! They inspire me to write.


Where in this thread have I expressed anything approaching fear? I was trying to give you a genuine answe to what I presumed was a genuine question of yours. My bad, clearly.

(E & A, I'm so sorry for not listening to you.)

They aren't facts, because they aren't empirically provable. We're dealing with people's emotions and opinions.
No one is questioning anyone's individual position, but does that explain the whole?

For example Areala-Chan said, "broken people write broken characters".
Are we to presume that the writers in LS are more "broken" than any other writer here?
You may tie it back to the difficulty of being a lesbian, but at the same time we don't know to what extent the authors of the stories in LS are actually written by lesbians. It's one of those "unknown unknowns".

Other people are offering opinions and we are having a healthy discussion on writing.
Why is that problematic? Why are there several trolls desperate to shut down that conversation?
That ought to make you wonder.

 

[THBGato]

Other people are offering opinions and we are having a healthy discussion on writing.
Why is that problematic?

Please quote to me where I have said it is problematic.

Why are there several trolls desperate to shut down that conversation?
That ought to make you wonder.

I'm not responsible for what other people post. But I think you're making a gigolo out of the word "desperate" there.

Look, all three writers named by the OP in the opening here have joined this thread to give an insight into why we write the stories we do. Believe us or not - that's on you.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Please quote to me where I have said it is problematic.


I'm not responsible for what other people post. But I think you're making a gigolo out of the word "desperate" there.

Look, all three writers named by the OP in the opening here have joined this thread to give an insight into why we write the stories we do. Believe us or not - that's on you.

The question extends beyond the three of you.

As for problematic, that's just quibbling. It's the "I didn't use that exact word, ergo the statement is invalid."
If you've said your piece, wonderful, no need to say anything else, right? But chiming in when other people are having productive conversations... that certainly suggests you don't want the conversation to continue.


I'd say their odd need to keep popping back in to try and derail things speaks of desperation.
Particularly because there is a patten of it.
But believe it or not, that's on you.

 

[THBGato]

Sweetie, if you want to have a conversation without others chipping in, maybe don't have it on a public forum? There's DMs for that.

Anyway, having been told that my opinion is no longer required as I have "said my piece", I shall withdraw and leave the field.

If nothing else, it'll save any more people from messaging me! (Thanks all, sorry I didn't listen. You were right of course.)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Sweetie, if you want to have a conversation without others chipping in, maybe don't have it on a public forum? There's DMs for that.

Anyway, having been told that my opinion is no longer required as I have "said my piece", I shall withdraw and leave the field.

If nothing else, it'll save any more people from messaging me! (Thanks all, sorry I didn't listen. You were right of course.)

Ohhh, darling, the problem isn't people chipping in. I appreciate it when people provide an actual opinion.
It's the people who are trying desperately to derail things that I find amusing.

 

[Cagivagurl]

If you want to know the problem.
Look in a mirror.

Cagivagurl

 

[lovecraft68]

How many years of domestic violence reporting is necessary for it to be valid?

Sadly, it will never be as valid as it should be.