Where are the happy, chill lesbians?

[StillStunned]

So is Poppy awake then or not?

I guess this is one of Those Things. Waking up to somebody making sex at you is a prime sexual fantasy for many men, but for many/most women it's OH HELL NO WHAT THE FUCK nightmare fuel.

Maybe it will make more sense when it's finished.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Hey everyone, it's clear this post was a bad idea. I'm still trying to figure out exactly where I went wrong and what is I can do to make amends (happy to take suggestions on that) but it's clear I've pissed off a bunch of people including some I quite respect. So I'm sorry for that and I'll just drop this line of inquiry.

Good idea. I salute you for being a big enough man (no innuendo intended) to take that approach.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Hey everyone, it's clear this post was a bad idea. I'm still trying to figure out exactly where I went wrong and what is I can do to make amends (happy to take suggestions on that) but it's clear I've pissed off a bunch of people including some I quite respect. So I'm sorry for that and I'll just drop this line of inquiry.

You didn't do anything wrong, and you have nothing to make amends for.
You asked an honest and legitimate question about why the tone in two different areas of lit are different.
If people were as open minded and tolerant as they tell themselves they are, they would have no issues with that.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You didn't do anything wrong, and you have nothing to make amends for.
You asked an honest and legitimate question about why the tone in two different areas of lit are different.
If people were as open minded and tolerant as they tell themselves they are, they would have no issues with that.

The way he went about it was crude, and it could have been interpreted as somewhat dismissive towards those stories. I understand that that wasn't his intention, but yeah, choosing words is important.

Still, that was my only issue with his otherwise legit post. I think there's room for discussion about tastes and tropes in the LS category, just as we do with every other category. So I agree that he shouldn't have apologized for asking the question, even if his tone wasn't the best.

 

[lovecraft68]

What you're saying is the Lesbian category is the country music song of Lit?

 

[THBGato]

I wonder whether it isn't so much that the stories are lesbian stories, as they are stories told by women?

Women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault or domestic abuse.
Women are more likely to face discrimination.
Women are more likely to self-harm (though more suicides are men, it's true).
Women are more likely to be cheated on.

Thus women written by women for women may well reflect that: readers like to feel seen, afterall.

Perhaps that's why lesbian stories often feature characters with sad back stories? Not because they are about lesbians per se, but because they are about women who live realistic lives?

(Personally speaking, stories in which both women live perfect lives never quite resonate with me. I'm always reading them wondering "what world do you live in?")

 

[Areala-chan]

For what it's worth, I don't think @joy_of_cooking did or said anything wrong. I'm only capable of answering it from my own limited perspective.

Tragedy has a long literary history, and an awful lot of the misery in my own life is either self-inflicted or the result of how I chose to respond to a given stimulus, both of which are heavily influenced by the state of my mental health, which especially as if late, has been 'lacking' (she wrote, euphemistically).

Tragedy is universal. Everyone knows what it feels like to be a loser at something, to struggle at something, even if it was gym class.

I write what I know, what I've felt, and what I've observed. It's nothing special, but it's mine and it's all I have to offer.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I wonder whether it isn't so much that the stories are lesbian stories, as they are stories told by women?

Women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault or domestic abuse.
Women are more likely to face discrimination.
Women are more likely to self-harm (though more suicides are men, it's true).
Women are more likely to be cheated on.

Thus women written by women for women may well reflect that: readers like to feel seen, afterall.

Perhaps that's why lesbian stories often feature characters with sad back stories? Not because they are about lesbians per se, but because they are about women who live realistic lives?

(Personally speaking, stories in which both women live perfect lives never quite resonate with me. I'm always reading them wondering "what world do you live in?")

But is it true that stories in the LS category are actually "written by women for women"?
There are a number of writers in LS who aren't women, and while we don't really have a method to track it, there isn't any reason to think a greater percentage of readers in LS are women than in Romance, EC, or one of the other fetish categories.
There is a tremendous amount of lesbian porn on the internet, most of it isn't being consumed by women.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

The way he went about it was crude, and it could have been interpreted as somewhat dismissive towards those stories. I understand that that wasn't his intention, but yeah, choosing words is important.

Still, that was my only issue with his otherwise legit post. I think there's room for discussion about tastes and tropes in the LS category, just as we do with every other category. So I agree that he shouldn't have apologized for asking the question, even if his tone wasn't the best.

I don't think it was crude, so much as direct.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

What you're saying is the Lesbian category is the country music song of Lit?

Except you lose your Subaru and your cat instead of your dog and your pickup.

 

[lovecraft68]

Except you lose your Subaru and your cat instead of your dog and your pickup.

Let's up the ante.

Make the woman goth or emo.

Now you've taken bummed out and moody to another level.

 

[Erozetta]

This makes me want to write something for this category. I even have a starting point on the story to tell.

At some point I found Annabeth. Her Daddy made a dungeon, too. They weren't so very different, but her's wasn't big enough for two. The mask I wore for her was mirror, afraid to be anything but a reflection. Eventually, my pain shone through.

From behind green glass I watch them dance, play, and laugh. Not one has ever met me, but think their version's true

The heartbreak and angst I could drum up with the full story behind those lines.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think it's a bad question to ask if, as I assume, this is the OP's genuine reaction to the stories, and the OP is genuinely curious.

I've read some of them, and my reaction wasn't that they were sad or downbeat so much as that they made more of an effort to be grounded in real experience and real emotion, as opposed to being fantasy stories, as so many (including many of mine) are.

I should add that I've been slowly working on a lesbian story, as a way of stretching myself as a writer, and for whatever reason I've felt compelled to make it more realistic, with some frustration and sadness in the backstory, than many of my other stories are. It seems to me like the story works better that way. So, from my point of view, at least, whatever the reason that these stories seem more "sad," it's not because lesbian writers are sadder than most.

 

[iwatchus]

Caveat: I have not read broadly in maybe half the categories. But in the categories I know, and the categories I have expectations about (T/I I see you), each has a flavor. Or maybe a couple flavors that you find in the one category. I like the emotional mix of LS more than most. It's why I asked about stretching the category recently; I want that emotional feel, but some of the sex will be hetero. That feel doesn't work the same in say EC.

 

[THBGato]

But is it true that stories in the LS category are actually "written by women for women"?
There are a number of writers in LS who aren't women, and while we don't really have a method to track it, there isn't any reason to think a greater percentage of readers in LS are women than in Romance, EC, or one of the other fetish categories.

So what? Even if there are male writers in that genre (and there are some very good ones whose writing I admire a lot), my point is that they are writing from a woman's pov. All I said earlier still stands.

As for the fact that many readers, perhaps a majority even, in LS are male: again, so what? They are welcome to read, indeed more than welcome.

But - and I speak only for myself here - I'm not writing for men. (Usually. I have two stories I wrote with a male readership in mind - one in GM, one in Romance.) I write for women, thus I wanted to try to make my female characters as real as possible, sad backstories and all. The fact that men my read them too is neither here nor there.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

So what? Even if there are male writers in that genre (and there are some very good ones whose writing I admire a lot), my point is that they are writing from a woman's pov. All I said earlier still stands.

As for the fact that many readers, perhaps a majority even, in LS are male: again, so what? They are welcome to read, indeed more than welcome.

But - and I speak only for myself here - I'm not writing for men. (Usually. I have two stories I wrote with a male readership in mind - one in GM, one in Romance.) I write for women, thus I wanted to try to make my female characters as real as possible, sad backstories and all. The fact that men my read them too is neither here nor there.

The argument was the stories are the way they are because it's women writing for women.
Yet, it's entirely possible neither the readers or writers are women. If you just say, "So what" then what was the point of offering the reason in the first place?

Why assume a women's POV ensures all these negative things? The stories in Romance (a genre dominated by women for women) don't skew that way. That should lead us to logically conclude something else is at work in LS than simply, "women have it bad".

 

[dirk2024]

(Personally speaking, stories in which both women live perfect lives never quite resonate with me. I'm always reading them wondering "what world do you live in?")

The erotica world?

I suppose that some people, like myself, are restraining themself from being too truthful, too reality based, in order to stay on the task of simply turning people on. Plus, there are those of us who are merely looking for the escapism of the fantasy. Injecting real world realities harshes the buzz.

Perhaps I'll change someday, grow and represent more reality in my stories. I know I am reading more in depth stories and fewer strokers nowadays.

 

[THBGato]

The stories Romance (a genre dominated by women for women) don't skew that way. T

Are you kidding?

Romance is full of guy-rescues-girl from ex/abusive dad/pervy boss/homelessness. I don't read there as much as LS, but tragic backstories are in abundance in Romance.

 

[Areala-chan]

Are you kidding?

Romance is full of guy-rescues-girl from ex/abusive dad/pervy boss/homelessness. I don't read there as much as LS, but tragic backstories are in abundance in Romance.

Not to mention, traditional romance itself is full of male MCs with tragic back stories as well: ex-military with survivor's guilt is a surprisingly common genre trope. Doctor grieving the deaths of patients they couldn't save. Cop who quit the force after seeing one too many homicides he couldn't prevent. Divorced, widowed, ex-wife got the kid, single father raising his daughter alone, they're all represented strongly.

Romance runs on broken people.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Not to mention, traditional romance itself is full of male MCs with tragic back stories as well: ex-military with survivor's guilt is a surprisingly common genre trope. Doctor grieving the deaths of patients they couldn't save. Cop who quit the force after seeing one too many homicides he couldn't prevent. Divorced, widowed, ex-wife got the kid, single father raising his daughter alone, they're all represented strongly.

Romance runs on broken people.

Yeah, "hurt/comfort" especially is popular enough to be a named trope.

 

[TheLobster]

That should lead us to logically conclude something else is at work in LS than simply, "women have it bad".

Perhaps it’s specifically lesbian women who have it bad. Statistics tend to show that woman-only relationships score high in terms of both incidents of domestic abuse and divorce rates.

Indeed, when it comes to the latter, there is this grimly amusing fact that whenever a man is replaced by a woman in a marriage, the likelihood of divorce increases by 25 percentage points (starting from the “baseline” of about 25% for gay male couples).

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Are you kidding?

Romance is full of guy-rescues-girl from ex/abusive dad/pervy boss/homelessness. I don't read there as much as LS, but tragic backstories are in abundance in Romance.

Most of the tragic backstories I've found in Romance are "guy with a tragic past".
There are certainly a plethora of Cinderella stories in romance, but they don't seem to be as harsh as you are suggesting.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Not to mention, traditional romance itself is full of male MCs with tragic back stories as well: ex-military with survivor's guilt is a surprisingly common genre trope. Doctor grieving the deaths of patients they couldn't save. Cop who quit the force after seeing one too many homicides he couldn't prevent. Divorced, widowed, ex-wife got the kid, single father raising his daughter alone, they're all represented strongly.

Romance runs on broken people.

I agree with you, but "woman have it bad" doesn't explain the fascination with broken MALE characters.

 

[rachaelwillguideyou]

Nice thread. Thanks.

 

[Areala-chan]

I agree with you, but "woman have it bad" doesn't explain the fascination with broken MALE characters.

"I can fix him" is an incredibly common fantasy.