This week in REAL antisemitism

[Pad_Foot]

Well? Christians made sure to close off any future claims to being Christian if anyone claimed to have future talks with God. This is key to preserving control. His word! Only his word. The difference between The Old and The New Testament? God made a mistake?

 

[Hel_Books]

What encounters did Hitchens have with Jews? Ultra-orthodox Jews hector other Jews about being more observant, but they leave the goyim alone.

Page 274 of God is not Great:

"I once sat in the Knesset office of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, a vicious racist and demagogue among whose supporters the mad Dr Baruch Goldstein and other violent Israeli settlers were to be found. Kahane’s campaign against mixed marriages, and for the expulsion of all non-Jews from Palestine, that earned him the contempt of many Israelis and diaspora Jews, who compared his programme to that of the Nuremberg laws in Germany. Kahane raved for a bit in response to this, saying any Arab could remain if he converted to Judaism by a strictly halacha test . . ."

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Page 274 of God is not Great:

"I once sat in the Knesset office of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, a vicious racist and demagogue among whose supporters the mad Dr Baruch Goldstein and other violent Israeli settlers were to be found. Kahane’s campaign against mixed marriages, and for the expulsion of all non-Jews from Palestine, that earned him the contempt of many Israelis and diaspora Jews, who compared his programme to that of the Nuremberg laws in Germany. Kahane raved for a bit in response to this, saying any Arab could remain if he converted to Judaism by a strictly halacha test . . ."

Hitchens cherry-picks one extremist who he admits was rejected by most other Jews.

 

[Hel_Books]

Well? Christians made sure to close off any future claims to being Christian if anyone claimed to have future talks with God. This is key to preserving control. His word! Only his word. The difference between The Old and The New Testament? God made a mistake?

Consult Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters entitled Where God Went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes and Who is this God Person Anyway?

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
Page 274 of God is not Great:

"I once sat in the Knesset office of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, a vicious racist and demagogue among whose supporters the mad Dr Baruch Goldstein and other violent Israeli settlers were to be found. Kahane’s campaign against mixed marriages, and for the expulsion of all non-Jews from Palestine, that earned him the contempt of many Israelis and diaspora Jews, who compared his programme to that of the Nuremberg laws in Germany. Kahane raved for a bit in response to this, saying any Arab could remain if he converted to Judaism by a strictly halacha test . . ."

Hitchens cherry-picks one extremist who he admits was rejected by most other Jews.

He mentions two, specifically: Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Also he mentions "other violent Israeli settlers."

But you can't get away with the "just a few bad apples" excuse with Judaism, any more than you can get away with it for Christians or Moslems or Buddhists (those somber monks are part of the same religion as those who persecute minorities in Sri Lanka or Myanmar).

It's what religion does.

 

[schism666]

That disturbing little troll is twenty-two years old and the fact that you perceive her as a child reveals much of your own perception about her. And I do not blame you for your perception because she cultivates this perception in people.

In short; she ain't right.

she was a child when she accomplished her personal goals, you no reading dumbfuck.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

He mentions two, specifically: Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Also he mentions "other violent Israeli settlers."

But you can't get away with the "just a few bad apples" excuse with Judaism, any more than you can get away with it for Christians or Moslems or Buddhists (those somber monks are part of the same religion as those who persecute minorities in Sri Lanka or Myanmar).

It's what religion does.

Kahane and Goldstein were violent bigots and ultranationalists like David Duke. Israel rejected their vision which is why it has Arab Muslim citizens today.

Their problem isn’t religion. It’s bigotry.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
He mentions two, specifically: Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Also he mentions "other violent Israeli settlers."

But you can't get away with the "just a few bad apples" excuse with Judaism, any more than you can get away with it for Christians or Moslems or Buddhists (those somber monks are part of the same religion as those who persecute minorities in Sri Lanka or Myanmar).

It's what religion does.

Kahane and Goldstein were violent bigots and ultranationalists like David Duke. Israel rejected their vision which is why it has Arab Muslim citizens today.

Their problem isn’t religion. It’s bigotry.

But that's the same "just a few bad apples" argument! The book Hitchens wrote describes in detail how "religion poisons everything."

Good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things. But to make good people do bad things, religion is called for.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

But that's the same "just a few bad apples" argument! The book Hitchens wrote describes in detail how "religion poisons everything."

Good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things. But to make good people do bad things, religion is called for.

Bad people will do bad things either with or without religion.

Good people will do good things both with and without religion.

Atheism is not the magic path to morality that some atheists think it is.

Judaism in particular has a tradition of questioning authority and encouraging debate about the right course of action. We have thousands of years of arguments about ethics to draw on, but they’re not binding. It’s perfectly permissible to say that Rabbi Ben-Eleazar (for example) was full of shit. You just need to be able to back it up.

 

[Lazaran]

But that's the same "just a few bad apples" argument! The book Hitchens wrote describes in detail how "religion poisons everything."

Good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things. But to make good people do bad things, religion is called for.

Pretty sure "good people" were moved to do "bad things" looooong before any organized religion existed…

Just sayin…



Also:

I believe it’s fair to judge each modern day religion on the macro rather than the micro.

What is each religion doing today that negatively impacts the general freedom of America and the world writ large.

To me, it appears / feels like Judaism is the most benign overall.

Christians and Muslims are tied for the top spot when it comes to trying to forcibly install their vision of "heaven on earth", imho.

(Of course, I’m an atheist, so I would obviously prefer “no religion”, but if I was forced to choose which religion was the least intrusive / offensive, I would currently go with Judaism).

JMTCW.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
But that's the same "just a few bad apples" argument! The book Hitchens wrote describes in detail how "religion poisons everything."

Good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things. But to make good people do bad things, religion is called for.

Bad people will do bad things either with or without religion.

Good people will do good things both with and without religion.

Atheism is not the magic path to morality that some atheists think it is.

Judaism in particular has a tradition of questioning authority and encouraging debate about the right course of action. We have thousands of years of arguments about ethics to draw on, but they’re not binding. It’s perfectly permissible to say that Rabbi Ben-Eleazar (for example) was full of shit. You just need to be able to back it up.

Of course atheism isn't some magic path. I wasn't claiming it is.

But the path of religion is . . . I'll quote Christopher Hitchen again:

“There are, indeed, several ways in which religion is not just amoral, but positively immoral. And these faults and crimes are not be found in the behavior of its adherents (which can sometimes be exemplary) but in its original precepts. These include:

1.) Presenting a false picture of the world to the innocent and the credulous.
2.) The doctrine of blood sacrifice.
3.) The doctrine of atonement.
4.) The doctrine of eternal reward and / or punishment.
5.) The imposition of impossible tasks and rules.”

 

[Hel_Books]

(Of course, I’m an atheist, so I would obviously prefer “no religion”, but if I was forced to choose which religion was the least intrusive / offensive, I would currently go with Judaism).

My guess is that in any age the religion with the fewest adherents would most likely be the least able to intrude on or offend others!

 

[Hel_Books]

Pretty sure "good people" were moved to do "bad things" looooong before any organized religion existed…

As Joe E. Brown said in Some Like it Hot, "nobody's perfect!"

But religion seems tailor-made to entice good people to do bad things that they otherwise (being good people) wouldn't do.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Of course atheism isn't some magic path. I wasn't claiming it is.

But the path of religion is . . . I'll quote Christopher Hitchen again:

“There are, indeed, several ways in which religion is not just amoral, but positively immoral. And these faults and crimes are not be found in the behavior of its adherents (which can sometimes be exemplary) but in its original precepts. These include:

1.) Presenting a false picture of the world to the innocent and the credulous.
2.) The doctrine of blood sacrifice.
3.) The doctrine of atonement.
4.) The doctrine of eternal reward and / or punishment.
5.) The imposition of impossible tasks and rules.”

None of these precepts apply to Judaism:

1. Judaism doesn’t involve belief in dogma. Its rules address how to live in a community of other Jews.

2. Animal sacrifice hasn’t been practiced for 2000 years. Not since the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple.

3. In Judaism, atonement merely means making amends to someone you’ve wronged. Just apologizing isn’t enough.

4. Judaism has no concept of an afterlife, let alone eternal reward or punishment.

5. The rules of Judaism aren’t impossible to follow, although they can be inconvenient. Don’t work on the sabbath. Don’t eat pork or shellfish. Don’t mix meat and dairy, etc. There’s no penalty for breaking them.

Hitchens is extrapolating out of ignorance.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Real anti-semitism also includes thousands of Hamas scumbags invading Israel to rape, kill, and abduct Jews.

Fuck Hamas.

Fuck Palestine.

Fuck Gaza.

I would rather not fornicate with them. Let's help Israel defeat them.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
Of course atheism isn't some magic path. I wasn't claiming it is.

But the path of religion is . . . I'll quote Christopher Hitchen again:

“There are, indeed, several ways in which religion is not just amoral, but positively immoral. And these faults and crimes are not be found in the behavior of its adherents (which can sometimes be exemplary) but in its original precepts. These include:

1.) Presenting a false picture of the world to the innocent and the credulous.
2.) The doctrine of blood sacrifice.
3.) The doctrine of atonement.
4.) The doctrine of eternal reward and / or punishment.
5.) The imposition of impossible tasks and rules.”

None of these precepts apply to Judaism:

1. Judaism doesn’t involve belief in dogma. Its rules address how to live in a community of other Jews.

2. Animal sacrifice hasn’t been practiced for 2000 years. Not since the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple.

3. In Judaism, atonement merely means making amends to someone you’ve wronged. Just apologizing isn’t enough.

4. Judaism has no concept of an afterlife, let alone eternal reward or punishment.

5. The rules of Judaism aren’t impossible to follow, although they can be inconvenient. Don’t work on the sabbath. Don’t eat pork or shellfish. Don’t mix meat and dairy, etc. There’s no penalty for breaking them.

Hitchens is extrapolating out of ignorance.

Christopher Hitchens wrote a well-researched book God is not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything, in which he discussed all of these points. Judaism, like all religions, presents a false picture of the world, from the Noachian flood to the story of the enslavement of the Jews in Egypt in the time of the Pharaohs (now known to archaeologists to be incorrect). As for "living in a community of other Jews," well, it appears the stresses and strains of Orthodox vs Conservative vs Reform are a result of the very "rules" each group reads into scripture. For the second point, Hitchens reminds us, "The curse of Abraham continues to poison Hebron, but the religious warrant for blood sacrifice poisons our entire civilization." Hebron, where Abraham was buried, was the site of the 1929 massacre of Jews by Muslims and the 1994 massacre of Muslims by a Jew. The two "Abrahamic" religions engaging in "blood sacrifice." Atonement is more of a Christian thing, but Hitchens was discussing all religions, which may differ in their details. Nevertheless, don't the Jews believe in a Messiah who is predicted to do what Jesus was claimed to have done, atone for all our sins? As for an afterlife, I believe there are differences of opinion among Jewish scholars, but surely the Jewish god punishes sinners, if not in the afterlife then in the here-and-now (Elisha, for example, torn apart by she-bears). The impossible rules are those that, for instance, forbid one from "coveting." Punishing someone for stealing is reasonable. Punishing someone for "impure thoughts" is bogus. It's a mechanism for making people feel they are evil merely for having fairly innocuous thoughts that they cannot suppress. Orwell spoke of "thoughtcrime," but he wasn't the inventor of the idea!

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Christopher Hitchens wrote a well-researched book God is not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything, in which he discussed all of these points. Judaism, like all religions, presents a false picture of the world, from the Noachian flood to the story of the enslavement of the Jews in Egypt in the time of the Pharaohs (now known to archaeologists to be incorrect). As for "living in a community of other Jews," well, it appears the stresses and strains of Orthodox vs Conservative vs Reform are a result of the very "rules" each group reads into scripture. For the second point, Hitchens reminds us, "The curse of Abraham continues to poison Hebron, but the religious warrant for blood sacrifice poisons our entire civilization." Hebron, where Abraham was buried, was the site of the 1929 massacre of Jews by Muslims and the 1994 massacre of Muslims by a Jew. The two "Abrahamic" religions engaging in "blood sacrifice." Atonement is more of a Christian thing, but Hitchens was discussing all religions, which may differ in their details. Nevertheless, don't the Jews believe in a Messiah who is predicted to do what Jesus was claimed to have done, atone for all our sins? As for an afterlife, I believe there are differences of opinion among Jewish scholars, but surely the Jewish god punishes sinners, if not in the afterlife then in the here-and-now (Elisha, for example, torn apart by she-bears). The impossible rules are those that, for instance, forbid one from "coveting." Punishing someone for stealing is reasonable. Punishing someone for "impure thoughts" is bogus. It's a mechanism for making people feel they are evil merely for having fairly innocuous thoughts that they cannot suppress. Orwell spoke of "thoughtcrime," but he wasn't the inventor of the idea!

We know Jesus wasn't the Messiah, because the Messiah is supposed to restore the kingdom of Israel. The Romans remained in control of Israel and killed Jesus. To this day ultra-religious Jews consider the modern state of Israel an abomination, because Jews should be forced to live in exile until the real Messiah comes.

The standard rabbinical response to questions of the afterlife is "What are you worried about that for? Concentrate on living a good life now so your memory will be a blessing." There is no punishment for breaking the rules in Judaism. The mitzvot are things you should do, not laws you'll be punished for breaking. You're supposed to refrain from coveting because it's a miserable way to live your life. The Talmud says that impure thoughts don't matter unless they lead to impure acts.

Hitchens would have benefitted from discussing these matters with a rabbi instead of drawing false conclusions from a body of scholarship he barely understands.

 

[Hel_Books]

We know Jesus wasn't the Messiah, because the Messiah is supposed to restore the kingdom of Israel. The Romans remained in control of Israel and killed Jesus. To this day ultra-religious Jews consider the modern state of Israel an abomination, because Jews should be forced to live in exile until the real Messiah comes.

The standard rabbinical response to questions of the afterlife is "What are you worried about that for? Concentrate on living a good life now so your memory will be a blessing." There is no punishment for breaking the rules in Judaism. The mitzvot are things you should do, not laws you'll be punished for breaking. You're supposed to refrain from coveting because it's a miserable way to live your life. The Talmud says that impure thoughts don't matter unless they lead to impure acts.

Hitchens would have benefitted from discussing these matters with a rabbi instead of drawing false conclusions from a body of scholarship he barely understands.

You "know" something about Jesus just as much as the Christians "know" about Jesus, which is however you choose to interpret the endlessly malleable words of "scripture"! As for punishments, just ask the Amalekites about what happens when you offend god and his word. As for "impure thoughts," consider, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

I'm not a religious scholar. Christopher Hitchens knew far more about religion than I. But I do know that you're just being silly!

 

[RobDownSouth]

You "know" something about Jesus just as much as the Christians "know" about Jesus, which is however you choose to interpret the endlessly malleable words of "scripture"! As for punishments, just ask the Amalekites about what happens when you offend god and his word. As for "impure thoughts," consider, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

I'm not a religious scholar. Christopher Hitchens knew far more about religion than I. But I do know that you're just being silly!

"Silly"?

"SILLY?"

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

You "know" something about Jesus just as much as the Christians "know" about Jesus, which is however you choose to interpret the endlessly malleable words of "scripture"! As for punishments, just ask the Amalekites about what happens when you offend god and his word. As for "impure thoughts," consider, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

I'm not a religious scholar. Christopher Hitchens knew far more about religion than I. But I do know that you're just being silly!

Jesus does not meet the requirements for being the Jewish Messiah. He said he was, but he was wrong.

Spending your life being envious of your neighbors leads to unhappiness and discord. It’s better not to do it.

The Bible is not historically accurate. I’m not even a rabbi and I know more about Judaism than Hitchens. You’d be wise to take anything he says with a grain of salt.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
You "know" something about Jesus just as much as the Christians "know" about Jesus, which is however you choose to interpret the endlessly malleable words of "scripture"! As for punishments, just ask the Amalekites about what happens when you offend god and his word. As for "impure thoughts," consider, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

I'm not a religious scholar. Christopher Hitchens knew far more about religion than I. But I do know that you're just being silly!

Jesus does not meet the requirements for being the Jewish Messiah. He said he was, but he was wrong.

Spending your life being envious of your neighbors leads to unhappiness and discord. It’s better not to do it.

The Bible is not historically accurate. I’m not even a rabbi and I know more about Judaism than Hitchens. You’d be wise to take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Perhaps you do know more about Judaism than Christopher Hitchens, perhaps not. He was a very well-read man. His arguments in God is not Great are quite cogent. For example, his discussion of religion imposing rules that are impossible to follow and then punishing those who fail to measure up has an excellent example in the commandment forbidding "coveting" (envy). Imagine being punished for wishing you owned an expensive pair of shoes, like she does! As for Jesus being the Messiah (or not), obviously Jews and Christians, reading the same scripture, find different answers to that conundrum. I'd just as soon ignore their pointless arguments.

 

[Noor]

Jesus does not meet the requirements for being the Jewish Messiah. He said he was, but he was wrong.

Spending your life being envious of your neighbors leads to unhappiness and discord. It’s better not to do it.

The Bible is not historically accurate. I’m not even a rabbi and I know more about Judaism than Hitchens. You’d be wise to take anything he says with a grain of salt.

I thought Jesus said he was not the Messiah!

 

[Noor]

Perhaps you do know more about Judaism than Christopher Hitchens, perhaps not. He was a very well-read man. His arguments in God is not Great are quite cogent. For example, his discussion of religion imposing rules that are impossible to follow and then punishing those who fail to measure up has an excellent example in the commandment forbidding "coveting" (envy). Imagine being punished for wishing you owned an expensive pair of shoes, like she does! As for Jesus being the Messiah (or not), obviously Jews and Christians, reading the same scripture, find different answers to that conundrum. I'd just as soon ignore their pointless arguments.

Even if they are well read, Christians have a hard time understanding Judaism since it’s a whole culture that is very difficult from Christian culture and the Jewish religion is studied via debate and argument not absolutes.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

I thought Jesus said he was not the Messiah!

Did he? Christianity isn’t my strong suit. His followers certainly claim it a lot.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Even if they are well read, Christians have a hard time understanding Judaism since it’s a whole culture that is very difficult from Christian culture and the Jewish religion is studied via debate and argument not absolutes.

"no absolutes", except the starvation of innocent children. You and the other Islamophobic bigots on this board ABSOLUTELY support this particular form of genocide.